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[Skullheart]

we should make save library with all of our shepard who romanced Miranda...
I'm currently playing a ME1 playthrough, just finished Noveria. Now all I have to do is every the side misions, the resources mision, etc. And virmire.
Damn Mako, I don't know if I love it or hate it.

[jtav]

ME1 has its pleasures. I'm just on a Miranda kick right now for some reason. Waiting for the Kaidan kick to start.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
So far everything Bioware has done in ME has been played so painfully straight it's become almost boring. Subtlety? Unexpected plot twists? Characters turning against you? Nada. Nothing. I like Bioware's characters as a rule, and the basic plot of the ME trilogy is interesting, but ME's storytelling leaves a lot to be desired.

So maybe we'll get a Virmire 2.0 or a character vs. a million lives saved one, but the outcome of everything will be painfully obvious every single time. If not, then credit to them, but I don't hold my breath. Even the DA team went back to playing things straight after their brilliant idea of the Orzammer outcomes in DAO. *That* was a surprise worth remembering. And against all odds, I'm hoping for something similar with the Collector base.

Everything played straight? They seem to be averting the Planet of Hats trope quite well. All asari are wise diplomatic and seductive, while really, all the ones we meet are batsh!t insane, militant, naive or at least not playing the sexy angle at all. All quarians are thugs and criminals (we see none except that one example JB mentioned). All turians are hardcore militaristic and disciplined but the most prominant ones are a renegade and air-quoting councilor. All we need is a human loving batarian and a pacifist krogan and we're all set. AI is a Crapshoot is averted like hell as well. 
Maybe the ones that are played straight bug you more.  And two examples doesn't exactly disprove what you're saying anyway. But you gotta figure Bioware is aware of fans like us who breeze through "moral choices" like LI vs Planet because for us LI must survive at all costs. So why not throw us a curve ball? It's possible.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
 So why not throw us a curve ball? It's possible.

I can understand both sides to this. On the one hand, attachment to the characters are a big part of what drives Bioware's fans. It's also pretty much what makes Bioware's games stand out from the pack. They don't have great (or, sometimes, even good) gameplay, their games aren't the most polished, and they don't have an especially distinctive art style. Characters are a big part of what they offer, so it's not really in their best interests to kick their fans where it hurts by taking their favorite characters away from them, or having them turn out to be traitors, or whatever.

On the other hand, sure, having some good plot twists and emotional moments... those things are also important. For the most part, I'd rather interesting choices with unpredictable outcomes, like the Orzrimmar example given by Ieldra, than lots of Virmire-style choices. That said, I do think that suffering casualties makes sense in a war like this, so if there is an either/or type of choice in ME3, it wouldn't surprise me much. jtav's probably right that no particular character will be condemned to death, though.

[Ieldra]

Skullheart wrote...
we should make save library with all of our shepard who romanced Miranda...
I'm currently playing a ME1 playthrough, just finished Noveria. Now all I have to do is every the side misions, the resources mision, etc. And virmire.
Damn Mako, I don't know if I love it or hate it.

I've been recording decisions for my ME2 playthroughs. The ME1 ones are obvious from the savegame flags, but unfortunately the journal tells you nothing about how you resolved certain situations in ME2. I wonder which decisions apart from the endgame choice will affect Miranda, if any.

I like the Mako. I've become quite proficient with it. And I know the best routes to all location on all planets by heart, if you can believe that.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
So far everything Bioware has done in ME has been played so painfully straight it's become almost boring. Subtlety? Unexpected plot twists? Characters turning against you? Nada. Nothing. I like Bioware's characters as a rule, and the basic plot of the ME trilogy is interesting, but ME's storytelling leaves a lot to be desired.

So maybe we'll get a Virmire 2.0 or a character vs. a million lives saved one, but the outcome of everything will be painfully obvious every single time. If not, then credit to them, but I don't hold my breath. Even the DA team went back to playing things straight after their brilliant idea of the Orzammer outcomes in DAO. *That* was a surprise worth remembering. And against all odds, I'm hoping for something similar with the Collector base.

Everything played straight? They seem to be averting the Planet of Hats trope quite well. All asari are wise diplomatic and seductive, while really, all the ones we meet are batsh!t insane, militant, naive or at least not playing the sexy angle at all. All quarians are thugs and criminals (we see none except that one example JB mentioned). All turians are hardcore militaristic and disciplined but the most prominant ones are a renegade and air-quoting councilor. All we need is a human loving batarian and a pacifist krogan and we're all set. AI is a Crapshoot is averted like hell as well. 
Maybe the ones that are played straight bug you more.  And two examples doesn't exactly disprove what you're saying anyway. But you gotta figure Bioware is aware of fans like us who breeze through "moral choices" like LI vs Planet because for us LI must survive at all costs. So why not throw us a curve ball? It's possible.

Sure, Bioware does avoid certain stereotypes. Very good, I appreciate that. But I was talking of plot twists and surprising parts played by characters, something not obvious such as Bhelen turning out the better ruler in DAO. Of course they'd have to compromise their Paragon favoritism for that, and so I guess it won't happen, or if it happens at all, it will be strictly small-scale and not affect the big picture, and it won't affect team members. Which means it will be totally insignificant. 

[jtav]

I've gotten well and truly desperate with my fShep and am almost at the point of hacking the game to romance Miranda. Would you like to see screenshots?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I've gotten well and truly desperate with my fShep and am almost at the point of hacking the game to romance Miranda. Would you like to see screenshots?

Most definitely.

[jtav]

I've been told it looks quite hideous. But there's really nothing like her for fShep, And singleness is boring.

[diamondedge]

How interesting of you to mention this jtav, I was actually browsing the internets for information and opinions about femShep/Miranda romance myself!

I wasn't very surprised to learn that Bioware actually did intend her to be romance option for either gender. Especially since the option is only available of Shepard chooses to press her for it. Sucks not to have her in the club just because I happen to play female. And with Jennifer Hale's performance I'm sure it would have turned out bloody magnificent!

I have many hopes for ME3 LI, and Miranda being available to femShep is one of them. That, or make it available to have this strong, platonic friendship. She was there for anything I did, and I treated her like my equal throughout the entire game.

[jtav]

I don't think it's likely, nor do I think she was seriouslu considered (both Shepards record everything, even gender-specific lines). I just wan to play fShep and romance a LI with passion and drive. I'd be all over TIM if he were available.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

I don't think it's likely, nor do I think she was seriouslu considered (both Shepards record everything, even gender-specific lines). I just wan to play fShep and romance a LI with passion and drive. I'd be all over TIM if he were available.

I wholeheartedly approve of this... well the first part anyway.

[jtav]

I don't approve, mind. I'd pay extra if Miranda were f/f.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

I don't approve, mind. I'd pay extra if Miranda were f/f.

Confused.

If you don't approve why are you doing it/ willing to pay extra?

[jtav]

I mean I don't approve of her being on;y available for mShep. I like playing fShep, but I prefer my LI to have that passion for a cause Miranda does.

[diamondedge]

Though admittedly, in my case, it's rather hard to be sympathetic; or even supportive ofher cause, given our history with Cerberus (and I'm a Sole Survivor, which makes things harder).

It frustrated me on more than one occasion how a woman of her intelligence can defend Cerberus so; perhaps it was just the challenge it represented for her by working for them - after all, that's what she was made to be. I was glad we've been given the option to make her see the other way. Though we are yet to see the fruits of that.

I too, admire her passion but I always thought she was doing right things for the wrong reasons.

[jtav]

I like her pro-Cerberus-ness and find it regrettable that has to change. I'll be passionately hoping for her return as TIW in the epilogue. And I will push her to deviate as little from TIM as possible. I want her as a sympathetic villain in a post-Reaper world, with Shepard either beside her or dead.

[CrutchCricket]

Ah. In that case I approve of this:

jtav wrote...
 I just wan to play fShep and romance a LI with passion and drive.

Moving on:

diamondedge wrote...
It frustrated me on more than one
occasion how a woman of her intelligence can defend Cerberus so; perhaps
it was just the challenge it represented for her by working for them -
after all, that's what she was made to be. I was glad we've been given
the option to make her see the other way. Though we are yet to see the
fruits of that.

I too, admire her passion but I always thought she was doing right things for the wrong reasons.

I think Miranda was misinformed/ kept in the dark about the more shady aspects of Cerberus. After all TIM wouldn't risk her becoming disillusioned if he could. I say (and I think others agree) that she is acting for the right reason and that her vision of human advancement is desirable. She wants humanity to achieve greatness unhindered by the other races and is willing to go to some lengths to get there. The ends justify the means but she has limits and those limits are not Cerberus' limits. Ultimately she's more idealistic than people first believe.

Of course opinions on the extent of all this differ. I for one hate the idea of her as a villain. But to each their own.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 31 octobre 2011 - 11:26 .

[diamondedge]

I'd love to see her as TIW, but to turn Cerberus around - not to maintain their status of terrorists.

EDIT:

I think Miranda was misinformed/ kept in the dark about the more shady aspects of Cerberus.

Yes, but Miranda is intelligent and resourceful. Jack's loyalty mission suggests she really didn't have all insight into organisation, but there are things that aren't exactly a secret and Miranda is smart enough to figure it out if they hold true or not. I don't like it when people follow orders blindly with no questions asked.

Modifié par diamondedge, 31 octobre 2011 - 11:31 .

[jtav]

It's mostly because I find the ME universe so contemptible. They need someone inciting mayhem. I want Miranda to keep kicking dogs because that's why she interests me as a character. I love her because she is a morally nasy piece of work. It's the Council and Alliance I want destroyed, not Cerberus.

Modifié par jtav, 31 octobre 2011 - 11:31 .

[diamondedge]

They're actually far worse than Cerberus, I agree. At least Cerberus is being honest about their naked lust for power while Council and the Alliance make up all sorts of sh*t excuses to fu*k you over whenever possible and then act like it's all your damn fault.

Yes, I think I'll go make another play through. *evil grin*

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

It's mostly because I find the ME universe so contemptible. They need someone inciting mayhem. I want Miranda to keep kicking dogs because that's why she interests me as a character. I love her because she is a morally nasy piece of work. It's the Council and Alliance I want destroyed, not Cerberus.

See, I don't think she is. But this shows we're starting from different interpretations, thus convergence of opinion is unlikely. As for inciting mayhem I think Admiral Xen is more suitable, what with her "I want to control the geth" schtick. Ultimately no organization in Mass Effect is even close to perfect so all of them could use an overhaul. If it's the destructive kind, so be it.

[jtav]

I argue against my actual morals a lot in this thread. If I were to simply make choices according to my morals, I'd be a near-perfect Paragon.

[raziel1980]

jtav wrote...

I argue against my actual morals a lot in this thread. If I were to simply make choices according to my morals, I'd be a near-perfect Paragon.

Good thing we don't have 'role-play' games like this and DA as if we were actually in the game and it were our own personal morals we were concerned with...

[jtav]

Miranda is interesting precisely because she counters them. I'm opposed to her very existence due to my religion, but she's the best argument against my worldview because she does or advocates evil in a way that isn't cartoonish. I need that loyal opposition, especially since good is no more attractive in ME.