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[Dr. Doctor]

The thing about the ME universe is that after ME1 it sort of went from being this incredible place that I could explore Star Trek style to being a place that I actually wouldn't mind seeing wiped out by the Reapers. Galactic civilization finds Reaper technology,  calls it good and then proceeds to stagnate.

The Council more or less just cares about maintaining the status quo rather than improving upon anything, the Alliance is willing to do whatever it takes to keep the Council happy. The same goes with most of the other major races. I sort of get the feeling that Shepard and his band of misfits (Wrex's Krogan, Geth, Rachni, and Quarians) are going to come out of the war in positions of power.

[jtav]

I sincerely hope so. And, is it just me, or does Miranda attract misanthropes?

Modifié par jtav, 01 novembre 2011 - 12:48 .

[darthoptimus003]

i just hope she is a perm squad member i like her better then the rest

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I sincerely hope so. And, is it just me, or does Miranda attract misanthropes?

I dunno. I wouldn't describe myself as such normally. Also, I'm not sure if disliking the way humans or other established powers in the ME universe are portrayed is really quite the same as misanthropy.

Even on that second point, I don't really share the angst of some posters here. It strikes me as mostly just the inevitable result of everyone needing to look like a douche so the hero gets to be awesome. Not my favorite tendency in these stories, but not one I'm too hung up on either.

darthoptimus003 wrote...

i just hope she is a perm squad member i like her better then the rest

Yes

Modifié par flemm, 01 novembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[jtav]

The problem is they went so far in that direction that I see nothing worth preserving in galactic society. I want the Reapers to wipe them out, just like I want Shepard to have a slow, painful, and humiliating death. I have nothing to root for except my squad.

[Dr. Doctor]

I think its less me being misanthropic as its that the ME universe doesn't really give me much reason to root for team organic life. We go where no man has gone before only to find that the new life and new civilizations we find is pretty much the same as what we know it to be on Earth.

I support Cerberus' ideology because they are looking to actually improve humanity, to improve upon what already exists. Unlike the Council, or the STG, or most other groups who are simply trying to enforce the status quo of the galaxy.  Shepard to me is like Ciaphas Cain who just so happens to ramble along from adventure to adventure, the real reason why he succedes is because of those who follow him.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

The problem is they went so far in that direction that I see nothing worth preserving in galactic society. I want the Reapers to wipe them out, just like I want Shepard to have a slow, painful, and humiliating death.

LoL. This really cracked me up for some reason

Anyway, if you look at life as a whole on planet earth, it seems pretty dismal as well. But then there are dozens of little things every day that are worth living for. In-game, I guess that's the squad.

Dr. Doctor wrote...
I think its less me being misanthropic as its that the ME universe doesn't really give me much reason to root for team organic life. We go where no man has gone before only to find that the new life and new civilizations we find is pretty much the same as what we know it to be on Earth.

What you're citing there is a pretty big problem with pulp sci-fi in general. I've been a Star Trek fan for quite a while, for example, and over on the Trek boards this comes up a lot... re: all the forehead aliens in Trek who are just humans with a twist.

My answer to that is usually that Trek is about humanity and always has been. It just uses the conceit of exploring strange new worlds as a way of exploring the human psyche and human society (not always in a really thought-provoking or original manner, but anyway that is the idea). 

I get what you're saying about Cerberus, though, and I do like the daring, ambitious side of the organisation. That's why I do like the idea of Miranda taking over eventually and putting the accent on that sort of project, and a bit less on the inhumane experiments side of things.

Modifié par flemm, 01 novembre 2011 - 02:08 .

[jtav]

And at least Miranda is fighting for something she truly believes in. It's ironic that her idealism is what compels me. She's like a beacon. I'd love to see a Paragon opposite number, idealistic about means as well as ends, and for them to be effective. I could get on board with such a Paragon. But ME does a lousy job with virtue.

[Nayt Navare]

Well, I guess I'm just optimistic, because I'm the complete opposite, jtav. I love my Shepard. I feel that he has a fun sense of humor at times, and is a true beacon of heroism, and a worthy leader. Meanwhile, the Council may be filled with idiots (sans Anderson), but I would honestly give my real life to save the people of the ME world (speaking in real-world hypotheticals here, I wouldn't give my life for a game, but would if it was real, blah blah blha) because that's who I am. It's why I tried to enlist, it's why others do. I dislike every American President we've had for the last 3 reigns, but that doesn't mean I'd let an innocent person down.

That's why I like Miranda for my Shep, as a foil, lover and friend. When you put complete optimistic, good-natured heroism with stoic, pragmatic (and arguably practical) Miranda, it creates an interesting dialogue of morality, the classic "do the means justify the end". To that point, though, I'm curious about your Shep. You say you like Miranda because she fights for what she believes in, does your Shepard not do the same?

[CrutchCricket]

The real question is what do you all want to get out of these games (besides the obvious entertainment of playing a video game)? Some sort of inspirational message on humanity's ingenuity? Socio-political commentary? If so, some of your disappointment makes sense. Because I don't think it's meant to be any of these.
I'm of the escapist persuasion. I don't give a damn about any ideas as they apply to people, real or fictional. I hardly give a damn about people at all apart from those I personally know. So when a game like this comes along and says "you'll be a hero", then that's what I want. I want it on my terms (none of that Good is Dumb stuff, if I need to crack heads I crack heads). And I want detailed characters that care about me and make me care about them. Everything else is background. Is the rest of the galaxy moronic? Sure. Do they deserve to die? Maybe. But I don't care either way because at the end of the game I want to win and I want to have everyone praising me for how much I won. Simple wish-fulfillment.
I'm not sure where I was going with this but I guess I'm just not understanding where all this "I hope the Reapers win" gloom comes from. Who cares that 95% of the NPCs are tards? Reapers are the enemy, enemy is coming and in the words of Yahtzee of Zero Punctuation fame "Kill they ass!". Preferably with Miranda by your side.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
But I don't care either way because at the end of the game I want to win and I want to have everyone praising me for how much I won. Simple wish-fulfillment.

I think you're right that this is what the game is focused on, and pretty much explains why everyone behaves the way they do in the story. I'm also pretty much cool with how it works overall.

That said, I do think that "wish-fulfillment" means different things to different people, and there are certain clichés in these stories that can get a little old after a while. So, I think there's some weight to that point of view as well.

Modifié par flemm, 01 novembre 2011 - 02:28 .

[jtav]

The problem is not so much Good is Dumb as Dumb IS Good. Shepard encapsulates everything I hate in heroes. There's no problem in ME that can't be solved by a liberal application of gunfire or a few pithy lines. Science? Infinitely more likely to create a problem than solve it. Politics? Useless. All we need is a charismatic leader who can kill things real good (sic) and our problems are gone. Give me a hero like Mordin or Miranda. But no. It's force and only force that carries the day. And corrupt oligarchies like the Council carry the day.

I hate the worldview espoused in Mass Effect. I want that world to burn. I'm only here for Miranda, Mordin, and Legion.

[Youknow]

jtav wrote...

The problem is not so much Good is Dumb as Dumb IS Good. Shepard encapsulates everything I hate in heroes. There's no problem in ME that can't be solved by a liberal application of gunfire or a few pithy lines. Science? Infinitely more likely to create a problem than solve it. Politics? Useless. All we need is a charismatic leader who can kill things real good (sic) and our problems are gone. Give me a hero like Mordin or Miranda. But no. It's force and only force that carries the day. And corrupt oligarchies like the Council carry the day.

I hate the worldview espoused in Mass Effect. I want that world to burn. I'm only here for Miranda, Mordin, and Legion.

I can totally see where you are coming from. I really wish that the politics and science didn't seem like they did more harm for the universe than help it. 

That said, I was kind of disliking Miranda at first, but after playing a Soldier Playthrough and finally getting my Insanity achievement, I kind of like Miranda. She and Jacob work really well together in combat. I hope that both are around in ME3 with decent roles. Miranda didn't talk enough in ME2. And I really wish that she could have been there to do some more 2nd in command stuff on the ship. Because the way things were carried out in ME2, she was like "2nd in Command" where she's that because she says so, but not really. 

[jtav]

I totally agree with you. She's fantastic in combat. You get a little of her 2IC status in the Jack, Grunt, and Legion debriefings, but not enough.

[Nayt Navare]

jtav wrote...

The problem is not so much Good is Dumb as Dumb IS Good. Shepard encapsulates everything I hate in heroes. There's no problem in ME that can't be solved by a liberal application of gunfire or a few pithy lines. Science? Infinitely more likely to create a problem than solve it. Politics? Useless. All we need is a charismatic leader who can kill things real good (sic) and our problems are gone. Give me a hero like Mordin or Miranda. But no. It's force and only force that carries the day. And corrupt oligarchies like the Council carry the day.

I hate the worldview espoused in Mass Effect. I want that world to burn. I'm only here for Miranda, Mordin, and Legion.

Guess I'm going to just have to disagree.  Force is sometimes all "Good" has.  It was gunfire that took out Osama bin Laden, it was gunfire that liberated Europe from the **** regime.  I don't think it matters what they use, a hero, to me, is someone who risks something for the betterment of others.  And Shepard isn't the infallible cliche hero I think you're arguing them to be here.  Arrival and the more distressing Suicide Missions, to me, kind of prove that.  There were no heroic forces or lines to stop the Batarian colony from being destroyed.  There is nothing Shep can say that would bring back the Virmire casualty.  Saving hostages leads to Balik (or whateverhisname is, lol) getting away.  Heck, the Reapers might even be more than a little succesful by the time ME3's credits roll.

That said, the Council is filled with idiots, and I'm totally on board with their comeuppance.

[Golden Owl]

jtav wrote...

I totally agree with you. She's fantastic in combat. You get a little of her 2IC status in the Jack, Grunt, and Legion debriefings, but not enough.

That really depends on Sheps class and gamers play style I think...I have hell keeping Miranda alive...but as a tactics heavy primary Sniper (so most commonly ranged), poor Miranda suffers on my team....

[Nayt Navare]

jtav wrote...

I totally agree with you. She's fantastic in combat. You get a little of her 2IC status in the Jack, Grunt, and Legion debriefings, but not enough.

Completely agreed.  Which always made me feel bad to take ehr with me on missions.  Who does that leave in charge?  jacob?  Nah.  Eff that,

[Youknow]

Golden Owl wrote...

jtav wrote...

I totally agree with you. She's fantastic in combat. You get a little of her 2IC status in the Jack, Grunt, and Legion debriefings, but not enough.

That really depends on Sheps class and gamers play style I think...I have hell keeping Miranda alive...but as a tactics heavy primary Sniper (so most commonly ranged), poor Miranda suffers on my team....

It kind of does. My friend absolutely hates her, but he plays as a Sentinel. So I can see the problems with redundancy. 

[jtav]

I play on Casual. Miranda Jack mean I barely have to shoot. Warp bombs away!

[Golden Owl]

Youknow wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

jtav wrote...

I totally agree with you. She's fantastic in combat. You get a little of her 2IC status in the Jack, Grunt, and Legion debriefings, but not enough.

That really depends on Sheps class and gamers play style I think...I have hell keeping Miranda alive...but as a tactics heavy primary Sniper (so most commonly ranged), poor Miranda suffers on my team....

It kind of does. My friend absolutely hates her, but he plays as a Sentinel. So I can see the problems with redundancy. 

I could see Miranda being perfect for a CQC Shep absolutley...her powers and bonuses...ranged combat is a fail for her though...I mostly tend to Team Sniper and have my best outcomes there....fastest enemy damage, very rare team death.

[CrutchCricket]

Again, what do you want out of this? Flemm is certainly right that wish fulfillment means different things for different people. That being said I think it is still well constrained in the fantasy. Consider a normal wish vs a fantastic wish. A normal wish (for example "I want a drink") requires only the component parts of the wish (i.e. you and a drink). A fantastic wish requires more. It requires a fundamental break from reality- something only fiction can provide. "I want to be like James Bond" doesn't just require a fancy suit and gadgets, it requires a whole world where those things can actually work. And obviously suspension of disbelief about those things.

To get back on topic I think Mass Effect is geared towards the "I'm a nigh-unstoppable badass in space who can singlehandedly take on a galactic threat (well, with a little help from my friends) and whom everyone who still expects to live, loves" wish-fulfillment. And the required framework to make that happen does include solving problems with bullets or quick remarks, ignoring politicians etc (I don't agree with you on the science bit but whatever). You need to suspend your disbelief not just about eezo or mass effect fields but also that there are people who can do what Shepard does just as there are people who can jump on a helicopter and disable its shields in one hit a la Kasumi (just did her loyalty mission again). Otherwise if you insist on dismissing these required components then yes you will get frustrated and start hating everything about it. But then what's the point?

A side note: Fiction that is created for us is created with a certain type of wish-fulfillment in mind. Thus though there are different kinds, it is not we the fans that are always in control about what those are. If we can't reconcile what we want with what is given, perhaps that work is not for us.

[Golden Owl]

jtav wrote...

I play on Casual. Miranda Jack mean I barely have to shoot. Warp bombs away!

I like Veteran myself...though do have one Insanity run for each of my Sheps...I don't enjoy Insanity, just have them for the bonuses.

[raziel1980]

jtav wrote...

I play on Casual. Miranda Jack mean I barely have to shoot. Warp bombs away!

I do too...and since I play Vanguard's... usually it's me, Miri, and Garrus though sometimes I take Grunt( Haestrom n derelect reaper missions) on the important stroyline missions...though I do mix it up abit with the loyality missions...

[Dr. Doctor]

I play on insanity, which means it takes awhile to do a playthrough, anyway enough doom and gloom.

Miranda tactic of the day:

Vanguard Shepard + Miranda and Jack, with Miranda's Cerberus Leader and Jack's Squad Warp Ammo powers activated pause the action and have Shepard select a target to charge while also giving Jack the order to use Pull on the same target.

This tactic reduces the distance that Shepard has to charge in order to get into close combat while also keeping the target within the range of the squad's weapons fire. You'll also get a 50% damage bonus from Miranda and Jack's squad buffs, the damage numbers for the shotguns work out as follows:

Claymore: 601.2 DPS

Geth Plasma Shotgun: 375.6 DPS (uncharged shot) 506.7 DPS (charged shot)

Eviscerator: 441.6 DPS

Katana: 330 DPS

Scimitar: 244.1 DPS

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I sincerely hope so. And, is it just me, or does Miranda attract misanthropes?

Misanthropes and transhumanists. Miranda is an idealist who wants to improve things for humanity. It's only to be expected that she attracts people not quite content with the status quo of the human species. 

But part of it may also the generally more cynical tone of ME2 as compared to ME1. In ME1, the Alliance is behind you and the Council may disbelieve you and the turian Councilor may be distrustful, but they aren't idiots like in ME2. That changed in ME2, and certain events in ME2 are enough to make anyone lose faith in the human species (and others). Miranda is the light in the darkness, and actually, the whole of Cerberus would be if not for their disgusting methods of research.