82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

More pictures? But of course:



Edit:
Hey, I got the top-of-the-page slot. I think this picture deserves it

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 novembre 2011 - 05:25 .

[Vertigo_1]

Posting here if you don't follow the twitter thread (shame on you)

twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/131418601369513985

"We're spending the morning reviewing all the romance plots and scenes in #ME3. The team has done some amazing work - our best so far."

Can't help but wonder what they did with Mirandas Romance

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Posting here if you don't follow the twitter thread (shame on you)

twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/131418601369513985

"We're spending the morning reviewing all the romance plots and scenes in #ME3. The team has done some amazing work - our best so far."

Can't help but wonder what they did with Mirandas Romance

They better have done Miri justice. This is the final chapter for crying out loud.

[CrutchCricket]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Posting here if you don't follow the twitter thread (shame on you)

twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/131418601369513985

"We're spending the morning reviewing all the romance plots and scenes in #ME3. The team has done some amazing work - our best so far."

Can't help but wonder what they did with Mirandas Romance

Simple- that quote is missing a word:


"We're spending the morning reviewing all the romance plots
and scenes in #ME3. The team has done some amazing work - [Miranda's] our best so
far."

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Simple- that quote is missing a word:


"We're spending the morning reviewing all the romance plots
and scenes in #ME3. The team has done some amazing work - [Miranda's] our best so
far."

LoL, I certainly hope so. Thanks for the heads-up, Vertigo

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Ieldra2 wrote...

More pictures? But of course:



Edit:
Hey, I got the top-of-the-page slot. I think this picture deserves it

*SIGH:wub::wub:*

[Dr. Doctor]

On the subject of science in ME being portrayed as evil is dependent on which game you look at. ME1 for the most part shows that scientific advancements in the universe are beneficial to everyone. The assignment Citadel: A Family Matter shows that genetic modification is a low-risk way to solve health problems, the mission with Samesh Bhatia places great emphasis on how researching the corpse of a soldier attacked by the Geth could save many lives.

The only times where ME1 shows science in a negative light is when either a character or group (Saren or Cerberus) use it to their own ends or when a company is using science in the pursuit of profit (ExoGeni, BAaT, etc.)

But because ME2 is supposed to be the "darker second act"  we get to see science in the same light as the Deus Ex games, instead of in the Star Trek styled view of the first game. For instance Miranda represents genetic modification taken to an extreme level, the same with Jack and biotics. The only thing is that where Deus Ex tells a cautionary tale of  reliance upon technology, ME2 connotates science with moral ambiguity  Mordin's LM, Jack's LM, and Miranda's backstory all are tales of science being used for morally questionable reasons, the Lazarus Project could be considered beneficial, but it gets glossed over.

[flemm]

Part of the issue here may be the whole concept of the Reapers "growing" organic life along a certain path by leaving their technology lying around. Galactic culture is built around this tech that no one really understands and didn't invent. And, it's all been a sinister trap from the beginning.

From that point of view you have to wonder if any of these cultures have really adjusted to life on a galactic scale. It wasn't their ingenuity that got them to this point, at least not completely, so perhaps that contributes to the general sense of inertia.

Modifié par flemm, 01 novembre 2011 - 09:25 .

[Ieldra]

Interesting take on it, Dr.Doctor. But the strength of the Deus Ex games is that the games take exactly no stance on the technology. It has advantages and disadvantages, and it's up to you to decide which counts for more. For instance you can play DX:HR as a cautionary tale, but you also have Sarif's ending which takes a much more optimistic view, and this ending has at least the same emotional impact and is at least as convincing as the pessimistic ones.

I would like to have that freedom in the ME games as well, instead of being told at every turn that Reaper technology is evil by pushing the horrors into my face and leaving its advantages (EDI, the Thanix, possibly even Shepard) in the background. DX:HR tells you that the value of a scientific advancement lies in its application - control individuals by the technology or increase their individual capabilities. Given the on-screen presentation, ME is much more generalizing in its judgment.

Miranda's genetic engineering is another example. Actually, her enhancements are not radical. Were they radical, she wouldn't look normal and her infertility would be not a medical condition but a basic genetic incompatibility with normal human males. As it is, all of her enhancements would be regarded as highly desirable by almost everyone. Thus, I want to be free to interpret her enhancements as desirable and convince her to make peace with them and embrace what she is. I want to see her mistreatment by her father as the primary problem and do definitely NOT want to be told by the game that her genetic enhancements as such are morally wrong. Because well, I passionately believe that they are not, and just as in DX:HR I tend to choose the optimistic ending, I also want to choose an ending for Miranda that takes an optimistic stance towards her genetic enhancements. Her infertility annoys me so greatly because it appears to support a stance of "this cannot end well" towards her genetic enhancements.

In short, I do not want the games to present a certain moral stance towards technology as better than another one. Most notably, I do not want a technological status quo bias to be regarded as something good. For in my view it is something bad. The last word on that is not yet spoken. We'll see how it goes in ME3.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 novembre 2011 - 09:41 .

[naledgeborn]

You went with Sarif? I told him, Darrow, and Taggart to screw themselves and blew everybody up. All the good that did huh, Illuminati still gets Megan Reed.

OT of science. I don't think they're "portraying" science as evil. I don't think they really put too much thought into the thematic connotations beyond the main antagonists being bio-mechanical godlike warships. Shepard coming back from the dead was all but handwaved. You're giving them too much credit in your interpretation Ieldra. Even the theme of "family" in Dragon Age 2 seems to be accidental.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 01 novembre 2011 - 09:56 .

[Dr. Doctor]

@Flemm

I wonder if Reaper tech has some sort of Doctor Who-style perception filter built into it, some sort of low-level indoctrination that discourages curiosity as to its function or perhaps instills thoughts on what the tech is used for. That could explain how a space-faring civilization as old as the Asari could have gone so long without showing much interest into the details of how the Mass Relays function. Even the Protheans didn't research into the Relays up until their final days where they built the Conduit.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Part of the issue here may be the whole concept of the Reapers "growing" organic life along a certain path by leaving their technology lying around. Galactic culture is built around this tech that no one really understands and didn't invent. And, it's all been a sinister trap from the beginning.

From that point of view you have to wonder if any of these cultures have really adjusted to life on a galactic scale. It wasn't their ingenuity that got them to this point, at least not completely, so perhaps that contributes to the general sense of inertia.

I think that failing to invent their own technology is not a failing of Citadel civilization. As Mordin says, technology is the result of deficiencies. Deficiencies create pressure to develop new technologies, and if that pressure is too weak, inventions along a certain path won't happen. The main failing of galactic culture is that they have failed to understand the technology they are using. Nobody knows how mass relays really work, of course you are less in control of your own development that way. The Protheans have shown us it's possible by building the Conduit, but do we see hordes of Council-sponsored scientists trying to uncover its secrets? No. Even in the face of the Reaper threat, it doesn't happen.

So yes, I think that you are right that most of the species in Citadel space are like children playing in the sand. Which is why I support anyone with a vision that moves things forward. Thus, my wish for a repurposed Cerberus - I'd like to retain the force of the vision to break the technological status quo but lower the moral cost. In fact, a Paragon version of that vision would be very much desirable, but there is no candidate in sight that would embody such a vision. IMO it is a failing of the games that they present radical advancement as Renegade and as such, morally suspicious.

@naledgeborn:
Do I give Bioware too much credit? I don't know, but how can anyone write science fiction and not seriously think, even obsess about things like this? Well, possibly some people can, but as far as I'm concerned they might as well be of another species - such a mental structure appears alien to me.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:06 .

[naledgeborn]

@Ieldra
Considering Drew, Casey, Mac, and a few others had this all planned out and possibly written since 2004 it's easy to see why some of it may seem shallow in substance. I think they shifted focus to the episodic format of storytelling since ME2. The depth of more integral parts of the narrative ending up suffering for it. You're interpretation of science = evil is just one example. This is probably my only criticism of ME2's story. I think it might switch back up for 3 since they cut down squad size and are going in a different direction than their episodic Loyalty Mission approach.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:23 .

[jtav]

Could Miranda in her more Paragon incarnations embody it? Paragon!Cerberus could be every project like Lazarus, relatively morally unambiguous and beneficial, even as they remain outside the law to jettison red tape.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Could Miranda in her more Paragon incarnations embody it? Paragon!Cerberus could be every project like Lazarus, relatively morally unambiguous and beneficial, even as they remain outside the law to jettison red tape.

I don't see why not. You can have ambitious goals while still being extremely scrupulous as to the means you use to achieve them. And it would certainly be easier without the threat of the Reapers on the horizon.

Modifié par flemm, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:25 .

[naledgeborn]

Cerberus can never be Paragon. Think of all the people who want to throw humanity under the bus for Asari, Quarians, and Turians. Who are they gonna have to blame for all the galaxy's ills?

[SandTrout]

naledgeborn wrote...

Cerberus can never be Paragon. Think of all the people who want to throw humanity under the bus for Asari, Quarians, and Turians. Who are they gonna have to blame for all the galaxy's ills?

Not all paragons are anti-human xenophiles. <_<

[naledgeborn]

SandTrout wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Cerberus can never be Paragon. Think of all the people who want to throw humanity under the bus for Asari, Quarians, and Turians. Who are they gonna have to blame for all the galaxy's ills?

Not all paragons are anti-human xenophiles. <_<

Well then, I'm glad to hear I'm not alone. At least half of the time anyway.

[jtav]

If Miranda can be transformed into *that* sort of Paragon who retains her independence, ambition, and drive, I'm on board. I want someone who'll change the world, not prop up the old regime.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

If Miranda can be transformed into *that* sort of Paragon who retains her independence, ambition, and drive, I'm on board. I want someone who'll change the world, not prop up the old regime.

It seems pretty plausible to me. Maybe that's the "Foundation" ending, rather than the TIW ending, but I see no reason for a more Paragon-oriented Miranda to lack ambition.

Modifié par flemm, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:35 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Could Miranda in her more Paragon incarnations embody it? Paragon!Cerberus could be every project like Lazarus, relatively morally unambiguous and beneficial, even as they remain outside the law to jettison red tape.

In principle, I can't see why not. The problem is the presentation of the Paragon path in the games so far, which appears to take a stance against radical advancement regardless of possible benefits. That would have to change.

I still prefer morally ambiguous Miranda though. I'm too much of a consequentialist.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:38 .

[jtav]

If I can borrow a comics analogy, TIM is Magneto. We need a Xavier.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

If I can borrow a comics analogy, TIM is Magneto. We need a Xavier.

So Miranda founds a school for genetically enchanced youth...

With a Danger Room...

Modifié par flemm, 01 novembre 2011 - 10:45 .

[jtav]

But seriously, our villains are the ones with vision. Shouldn't Paragons also be fighting against the Council and Alliance, but in a different way?

[naledgeborn]

Professor X is too much of a pacifist. I hate the "turn the other cheek" archetype. Don't waant to see Ms. Lawson anywhere near that.