82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

My biggest worry is this: I don't want to see a "reformed" Miranda who has "seen the light" or other such cheesy stuff (that would be the chickified version), but a badass and pragmatic Miranda who rejects Cerberus' excesses but still believes in her cause of advancing humanity, and who doesn't let her attachment to Shepard, if any, compromise that.

Is it really chickification if her ideals change but she stays as "badass?"

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

My biggest worry is this: I don't want to see a "reformed" Miranda who has "seen the light" or other such cheesy stuff (that would be the chickified version), but a badass and pragmatic Miranda who rejects Cerberus' excesses but still believes in her cause of advancing humanity, and who doesn't let her attachment to Shepard, if any, compromise that.

Is it really chickification if her ideals change but she stays as "badass?"

If her ideals change into the more conventional sort, those usually trumpeted about in form of Aesops, then yes.

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

My biggest worry is this: I don't want to see a "reformed" Miranda who has "seen the light" or other such cheesy stuff (that would be the chickified version), but a badass and pragmatic Miranda who rejects Cerberus' excesses but still believes in her cause of advancing humanity, and who doesn't let her attachment to Shepard, if any, compromise that.

Is it really chickification if her ideals change but she stays as "badass?"

If her ideals change into the more conventional sort, those usually trumpeted about in form of Aesops, then yes.

That... terrorism is bad? Especially Reaper-aligned terrorism?
And I'm not just using the Council's definition of terrorism here; Jacob says that it's been applied to Cerberus with good reason.

[jtav]

No. That cutting red tape, leaving subordinates to die in pursuit of a greater objective, and not being 100% nice is bad.

[Ieldra]

Why does it never take more than two posts from you to send me up the wall, Xilizhra. I swear I get more Renegade with every one of your posts I read.

I posted the ideals I want Miranda to represent on the previous page. They're unconventional and radical, but I challenge anyone to call them "bad" and they don't include terrorism. I said I expect Miranda to reject Cerberus' excesses. Now would you please stop twisting my words!

Also, what jtav said.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 novembre 2011 - 07:36 .

[Xilizhra]

Why does it never take more than two posts from you to send me up the wall, Xilizhra. I swear I get more Renegade with every one of your posts I read.

I'm in training to become a secret agent. Eventually, my goal is to be able to start wars just by being annoying in the right social situation.

But what I was confused about is your referring to "seeing the light" as wanting to stop working towards humanity's advancement at all, and since the entire Alliance does that, I didn't know why you feared it that much.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why does it never take more than two posts from you to send me up the wall, Xilizhra. I swear I get more Renegade with every one of your posts I read.

I'm in training to become a secret agent. Eventually, my goal is to be able to start wars just by being annoying in the right social situation.

But what I was confused about is your referring to "seeing the light" as wanting to stop working towards humanity's advancement at all, and since the entire Alliance does that, I didn't know why you feared it that much.

We'll talk again once the Alliance has abolished the Sudham-Wolcott Genetic Heritage Act of 2161.

Edit:
And when the Alliance accepts that Reaper technology can be used to benefit humanity. With all possible care, of course. We don't want any disasters incurred by careless handling of the stuff.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 novembre 2011 - 07:47 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Ieldra2 wrote...

To take the parallel directly to the ME universe: suppose that Miranda will research human enhancement technologies, either with "reformed Cerberus" or with a science foundation created from her father's fortune. The same problem applies as in DX:HR: those with either (1) control over the technology, (2) political power or (3) enough money will set things up to profit from any advancement first - and, if they have any say about it, exclusively, since human ambition is competitive: humans don't want simply to be longer-lived, healthier and smarter than before, they want to be longer-lived, healthier and smarter than the next human. 

I disagree with your premise, Ieldra: the elites aren't the only ones with access to iPhones, the Internet, sports cars, life extending drugs, etc etc.  If somebody does develop a human enhancing technology they will be highly inventivised to get it on the mass market as soon as they can (because they'll be made spectacularly rich).  People can be relied upon to do the things they think will make them spectacularly rich, which is why capitalism is the engine of human development.

[CrutchCricket]

Should've stuck to discussing cake:mellow:

I'll contribute something later.

[Ieldra]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

To take the parallel directly to the ME universe: suppose that Miranda will research human enhancement technologies, either with "reformed Cerberus" or with a science foundation created from her father's fortune. The same problem applies as in DX:HR: those with either (1) control over the technology, (2) political power or (3) enough money will set things up to profit from any advancement first - and, if they have any say about it, exclusively, since human ambition is competitive: humans don't want simply to be longer-lived, healthier and smarter than before, they want to be longer-lived, healthier and smarter than the next human. 

I disagree with your premise, Ieldra: the elites aren't the only ones with access to iPhones, the Internet, sports cars, life extending drugs, etc etc.  If somebody does develop a human enhancing technology they will be highly inventivised to get it on the mass market as soon as they can (because they'll be made spectacularly rich). People can be relied upon to do the things they think will make them spectacularly rich, which is why capitalism is the engine of human development.

You mean you don't realize that the privileged and their children already have a head start in life and that they work very hard to keep things that way - to limit the competition by keeping opportunities unequal - for the next generation? I suggest you read reports about the correlation between social inequality and health, social inequality and the next generation's accomplishments. Capitalism is not the great equalizer, and the belief that capitalism complements democracy is a delusion. Human greed cares not a whit about fairness.

Also genetic enhancements are different than normal everyday technology. Like our everyday technology, in the end everything will depend on the price tag on human enhancements. And because the producers want to be spectacularly rich and the goods are so very desirable, they'll set the price tag high. Inevitably, a great many people will be left behind without having a choice about it. That will create a fundamental inequality at birth that will perpetuate itself through the generations if not severely checked. And because, as opposed to scenarios where genetic enhancements are not yet possible, this scenerio is avoidable, those who further it are acting in an immoral way.

[jlb524]

Ieldra2 wrote...
And when the Alliance accepts that Reaper technology can be used to benefit humanity. With all possible care, of course. We don't want any disasters incurred by careless handling of the stuff.

Do we know for sure that the Alliance is completely against using Reaper technology?

[Barquiel]

I don't think the alliance (or any other navy) would have any qualms about using reaper technology (not the tools used to create Husks, but weapons or shields for example). I mean...the turian military uses the Thanix canon and nobody seems to care.

[Ieldra]

jlb524 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
And when the Alliance accepts that Reaper technology can be used to benefit humanity. With all possible care, of course. We don't want any disasters incurred by careless handling of the stuff.

Do we know for sure that the Alliance is completely against using Reaper technology?

So far they didn't build anything using it, as opposed to Cerberus and the turians. But should they show themselves willing, I won't complain. And should ME3 make it possible to make Alliance humanity follow a more radical path of technological advancement, including human enhancement, I would not be averse to having Miranda take a place in their ranks - if she gets enough power to start research projects independently. But I don't hold my breath. ME's Paragon path appears to include a lot of status quo bias, and as of ME2, the Alliance represents the Paragon path to Cerberus' Renegade. We'll see if anything changes in that regard.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 novembre 2011 - 08:40 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 ME's Paragon path appears to include a lot of status quo bias, and as of ME2, the Alliance represents the Paragon path to Cerberus' Renegade. We'll see if anything changes in that regard.

I'll be very surprised if ME3 doesn't turn the tables on ME2, where you had a Cerberus ship, but the squad that was largely sceptical of Cerberus or outright hostile to them.

So, now it's an Alliance ship, but I expect a chunk of the squad to be sceptical of the Alliance. The devs have already made the analogy with ME2, where you can't choose not to work with Cerberus, but you can roleplay the situation either way.
  
All of that stuff just screams "Miranda." If so, then it probably means that siding with her will tend to swing Renegade, though maybe not always. I'd like to see a bit of a mix.

Modifié par flemm, 04 novembre 2011 - 09:00 .

[naledgeborn]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

which is why capitalism is the engine of human development.

Alexis de Tocqueville once said that captialism is the death of art, total capitalism is the death of civilization. I tend to agree. Shot out to kop for putting me on to his work.

[naledgeborn]

Alliance and Reaper technology? Don't see it happening anytime soon. The Alliance Navy has Cerberus doing all of it's "Renegade" work. That's why I favor the Alliance publicly acknowledging it's shaky ties to the group. It'll give the SAN backbone while curbing Cerberus' extremism.

[Ieldra]

I'm in picture mood:

[General User]

Hotdamn! That's an awesome picture!

Modifié par General User, 04 novembre 2011 - 09:27 .

[Dr. Doctor]

On the topic of Cerberus. what interests me is that while the Alliance publicly denounces their actions we never really hear of them trying to stop them. Perhaps there are those within the government that support Cerberus' actions. The Council might be able to keep the Alliance's hands tied, but Cerberus can ignore their restrictions.

To me this is sort of Miranda's point about Cerberus, Humanity can learn and work alongside the other races, but we can't expect them to have our best interests in mind. Like the Geth, humanity needs to have the ability to create their own future instead of having a status quo forced on us by groups such as the Council.

As for Reaper tech, if Mass Effect has taught me anything it's that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from something that will bite me in the ass later on.

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
To me this is sort of Miranda's point about Cerberus, Humanity can learn and work alongside the other races, but we can't expect them to have our best interests in mind. Like the Geth, humanity needs to have the ability to create their own future instead of having a status quo forced on us by groups such as the Council.

If this is basically Miranda's perspective in ME3, then I will be pleased. If this is what she wants Cerberus to be about, then great.

naledgeborn wrote...
That's why I favor the Alliance publicly acknowledging it's shaky ties to the group. It'll give the SAN backbone while curbing Cerberus' extremism.

I'm sure we'll learn more about this. Not sure about public acknowledgement, because the war would be an odd time for that. Might work out that way in the epilogue, though.

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why does it never take more than two posts from you to send me up the wall, Xilizhra. I swear I get more Renegade with every one of your posts I read.

I'm in training to become a secret agent. Eventually, my goal is to be able to start wars just by being annoying in the right social situation.

But what I was confused about is your referring to "seeing the light" as wanting to stop working towards humanity's advancement at all, and since the entire Alliance does that, I didn't know why you feared it that much.

We'll talk again once the Alliance has abolished the Sudham-Wolcott Genetic Heritage Act of 2161.

Edit:
And when the Alliance accepts that Reaper technology can be used to benefit humanity. With all possible care, of course. We don't want any disasters incurred by careless handling of the stuff.

The one that forbids adding new traits to humans, as opposed to enhancing existing ones? Interesting... so you'd support a general existing race that can do basically anything?

[Yuqi]

Wow, I never realised the Au accent was popular. Maybe Miranda's accent just urks me because I'm from Australia.

Some of the things she says make me facepalm, especially when she uses 'bloody' in a line. I think her regional dialect is NSW?

[enayasoul]

I absolutely love Miranda's accent!

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

enayasoul wrote...

I absolutely love Miranda's accent!

We all do. 

Miri's voice is like listening to an Angel:wub:.