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[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

jtav wrote...

Not to sugarcoat it myself, what's so enraging is: What motivates Miranda in the end? Not her desire to prove herself or her belief in human advancement. Not even the desire to beat the Reapers. Oriana. And she's not even the star of her own mission. She's there to be rescued.

If this is the case... perhaps ME3's problem is that it has to somehow follow everyone from ME2, but doesn't really have the room to do any of them justice. Though what's probably worse is this insistence on the idea that the freaking last game of the trilogy has to be easily accessible to new people. Let them go play the damned first two games themselves if they want a connection with the story.

Sadly, this. I knew something like that will happen. Things would've been a lot better with lesser squadmates in ME2.
I'll try to not being too pessimistic until the very end. Btw, something like that will happen with the January demo too. They'll leak again the story information. If that'll happen, I hope the spoiler will be better (though I'll read only the one related to Miranda).

[Vertigo_1]

Xilizhra wrote...
If this is the case... perhaps ME3's problem is that it has to somehow follow everyone from ME2, but doesn't really have the room to do any of them justice. Though what's probably worse is this insistence on the idea that the freaking last game of the trilogy has to be easily accessible to new people. Let them go play the damned first two games themselves if they want a connection with the story.

I like this human, she understands!

hhh89 wrote...
Sadly, this. I knew something like that will happen. Things would've been a lot better with lesser squadmates in ME2.
I'll try to not being too pessimistic until the very end. Btw, something like that will happen with the January demo too. They'll leak again the story information. If that'll happen, I hope the spoiler will be better (though I'll read only the one related to Miranda).

Yeah, I was just talking with someone over that.  But now that it has happened wouldn't Bioware go through the trouble of cleaning it up before releasing it?

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 08 novembre 2011 - 06:13 .

[flemm]

IsaacShep wrote...
Cat 2 is Thessia. I don't think the list really determines the timing/order of things happening, especially considering Cat 1 is missing from the list. Personally, I expect Cat 2 to happen somewhere in the middle, like Horizon, not very late in the game. Especially considering Thessia's been the first planet revealed in N7 Ops. Would they reveal a planet that would be so late into the game/plot? Don't think so

Second half of the game in any event. When you combine that with the fact that the mission apparently opens up the final arc of the game, somewhere around Reaper IFF territory seems about right, give or take.

Modifié par flemm, 08 novembre 2011 - 06:48 .

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

Well, I can think of some reasons. None of them good.

When we see the actual scenes, this might end up being clearer. But honestly, it may come down to what the SB files were basically suggesting, which is that the writers' view of Miranda is that she woke up from her committment to Cerberus and her career and decided she wanted to devote herself to family, having children, and a normal life, like Oriana.

Unfortunately, the dossier does seem to have been teasing Miranda's involvement in ME3 very heavily, as it does for a few other characters. At this point a miracle pregnancy seems increasingly plausible tbh. "Unfinished business, especially if you romanced her in ME2, etc."

It is, I suppose, possible she might join up as a sort of surprise in the end. These games do tend to have someone join up around that time. *shrug*

If that's where they go i'll stop playing. Miracle pregnancy. Just when you think you've hit rock bottom, you find out there's potential for more bottom.

[ViSeiRa]

CrutchCricket wrote...

ViSeirA wrote...

I look at the situation right now and all I can think of is: damage control.

I know some people here think there's more to the leak and that the entire plot wasn't leaked, and that it's so outdated some stuff could have changed, but that doesn't negate the fact that you can almost form a coherent storyline from what you read there, and no matter how changed that script is it's never gonna leave the boundaries of the leaked one, in simpler words: we already know the general outline of Miranda's involvement in ME3 and I am not satisfied with it, the specifics of said involvement may change but it'll never leave the boundaries set for it.

I recognize no boundaries on the story of Mass Effect 3 coming from the leak and challenge anyone to prove the bolded part(s) [2] or to defend the relevance of the underlined part. [1]

That being said, I saw a picture on this page but it was not of Miranda. Could someone kindly post some gold:wub:?

[1] Did you even read the entire leak? it helps you establish a general direction for the storyline in ME3, it might be just a draft but the fact that it stretches from the start till the end of the game means you can use it to judge the involvement of characters and their relevance to the plot.

[2] Prove? what is there to prove? what we got was not "evidence", it was a full blown video showing the murder, the murderer and the murder weapon, you really should stop acting like some self-righteous know-it-all when you're in fact deluded by your senses of false hope.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
Just...why this of all things. I get a cameo. But why would anyone want her so diminished?

Well, I can think of some reasons. None of them good.

When we see the actual scenes, this might end up being clearer. But honestly, it may come down to what the SB files were basically suggesting, which is that the writers' view of Miranda is that she woke up from her committment to Cerberus and her career and decided she wanted to devote herself to family, having children, and a normal life, like Oriana.

Just when I thought I was on my way out of the pit of depression, I must read this. What a disaster that would be. Exactly what *nobody* here wanted, and they KNEW it. From the earliest day of the first fan thread, people liked Miranda for her competence, her ability to be someone on her own, walking through hell and back at Shepard's side. I maintain my statement that if this happens, it's a deliberate kick in the face of Miranda's fans.   

Which is why I'm still holding some hope that it won't happen. Maybe there will a decision at the point where we meet her father, and we can influence which kind of person she'll be in future and how she views herself and her enhancements.... *grasps at straws*

Unfortunately, the dossier does seem to have been teasing Miranda's involvement in ME3 very heavily, as it does for a few other characters. At this point a miracle pregnancy seems increasingly plausible tbh. "Unfinished business, especially if you romanced her in ME2, etc."

That would be the last straw, the final nail in the coffin of the superspy I'd come to love in ME2.

At this point, some word of reassurance from Bioware would be really welcome. They could say it's our own fault for having read the spoilers, but can they really expect us read things like "Miranda fans are screwed" or "Miranda dies offscreen" (for which, I hurry to say, there is not a shred of evidence) in some random semi-spoilery post and not go and check out the details? 

[mineralica]

ViSeirA wrote...

[1] Did you even read the entire leak? it helps you establish a general direction for the storyline in ME3, it might be just a draft but the fact that it stretches from the start till the end of the game means you can use it to judge the involvement of characters and their relevance to the plot.
<...>

I won't say I enjoy the plot direction, but it might be just the main storyline? Absolutely bare bones with character connected only in places where they are absolutely necessary? Now, while developers are busy with romances and bromances, maybe - just maybe - characters will get own development and plotlines which will be connected with main plot where applicable?

That's just my opinion caused by the fact that characters physically can't be that small involved in characters- and dialogues-oriented game.

[wright1978]

My faints hopes reside in possibility that the rescue might at least be re-written so that she has already broken out when we arrive coupled with the tiny possibility that she can then join the squad. It would still suck but not as extremely as it currently seems to.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
At this point, some word of reassurance from Bioware would be really welcome. They could say it's our own fault for having read the spoilers, but can they really expect us read things like "Miranda fans are screwed" or "Miranda dies offscreen" (for which, I hurry to say, there is not a shred of evidence) in some random semi-spoilery post and not go and check out the details? 

I'm  really glad the leak happened, actually. At least now we know more or less where we stand.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Which is why I'm still holding some hope that it won't happen. Maybe there will a decision at the point where we meet her father, and we can influence which kind of person she'll be in future and how she views herself and her enhancements.... *grasps at straws*

It's possible. There's certainly plenty of room for the confrontation with her father to be interesting.

Modifié par flemm, 08 novembre 2011 - 12:53 .

[jtav]

Yes, desperately wishing we'd never heard the name Miranda Lawson or played ME2. That's where I stand.

[Xilizhra]

Just when I thought I was on my way out of the pit of depression, I must read this. What a disaster that would be. Exactly what *nobody* here wanted, and they KNEW it. From the earliest day of the first fan thread, people liked Miranda for her competence, her ability to be someone on her own, walking through hell and back at Shepard's side. I maintain my statement that if this happens, it's a deliberate kick in the face of Miranda's fans.

One would hope that they make their decision based on this group of Miranda's fans, instead of what they think the "silent majority" would want.

That said, I can see how her commitment to Cerberus could have gotten to her. Probably she wouldn't want to step out of the human advancement agenda permanently, but she might want to, well, take a break. Hopefully without any miracle pregnancies involved.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Just when I thought I was on my way out of the pit of depression, I must read this. What a disaster that would be. Exactly what *nobody* here wanted, and they KNEW it. From the earliest day of the first fan thread, people liked Miranda for her competence, her ability to be someone on her own, walking through hell and back at Shepard's side.

Sorry, it just seems really likely that the dossier says it all at this point, what with the Oriana focus, and the shift away from work toward trying to have a kid.The leak seems to suggest she won't actually be in combat during the mission, though I suppose the details of that might have changed.

Modifié par flemm, 08 novembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[Xilizhra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Just when I thought I was on my way out of the pit of depression, I must read this. What a disaster that would be. Exactly what *nobody* here wanted, and they KNEW it. From the earliest day of the first fan thread, people liked Miranda for her competence, her ability to be someone on her own, walking through hell and back at Shepard's side.

Sorry, it just seems really likely that the dossier says it all at this point, what with the Oriana focus, and the shift away from work toward trying to have a kid.The leak seems to suggest she won't actually be in combat during the mission, though I suppose the details of that might have changed.

Well... Jacob's dossier has details on weightlifting and letters from an Alliance officer and his father. I doubt those will be of major importance in ME3.

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

Sorry, it just seems really likely that the dossier says it all at this point, what with the Oriana focus, and the shift away from work toward trying to have a kid.The leak seems to suggest she won't actually be in combat during the mission, though I suppose the details of that might have changed.

and the hope is leached back out of me again. I've now got an image of a pregnant Miranda in a cell as the reason she won't ever join my squad.

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...
My faints hopes reside in possibility that the rescue might at least be re-written so that she has already broken out when we arrive coupled with the tiny possibility that she can then join the squad. It would still suck but not as extremely as it currently seems to.

Actually, that would not suck. Her appearance in the game would still be rather short, but we can live with that I think. What's important is that she gets the opportunity to be something more than a damsel in distress, that the mission where we meet her again is not the end of her screen presence, and that we have her with us when we confront TIM. It's her old boss, after all, in whom she believed and who had her loyalty for twenty years. If there's anything left of the Miranda who believed in the cause of advancing humanity and served that cause as a competent operative, that confrontation must take place. 

I hope there's something of her left *grasps at straws*.



 

[flemm]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well... Jacob's dossier has details on weightlifting and letters from an Alliance officer and his father. I doubt those will be of major importance in ME3.

This is why it was always possible to argue that perhaps Miranda's dossier wouldn't actually end up being very relevant. But, it does contain the rather massive new piece of information that she is infertile (or so it would seem), so that's always been a bit odd.

Anyway, lots of Oriana in the dossier, and that's seemingly the main focus of her appearance in the game. So, I would say that the odds of the rest of it being relevant just went up by a lot.

Ieldra2 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
My faints hopes reside in possibility that the rescue might at least be re-written so that she has already broken out when we arrive coupled with the tiny possibility that she can then join the squad. It would still suck but not as extremely as it currently seems to.

Actually, that would not suck. Her appearance in the game would still be rather short, but we can live with that I think. What's important is that she gets the opportunity to be something more than a damsel in distress, that the mission where we meet her again is not the end of her screen presence, and that we have her with us when we confront TIM. It's her old boss, after all, in whom she believed and who had her loyalty for twenty years. If there's anything left of the Miranda who believed in the cause of advancing humanity and served that cause as a competent operative, that confrontation must take place.

I hope there's something of her left *grasps at straws*.

It's still possible that Miranda is ME3's late-game squad member, sort of like Legion in ME2. Which might lead to her having some extra dialogue with TIM during that confrontation. Honestly, given the way these missions are organized, Miranda should at least come along for that. Doesn't seem like she will have the impact we would like, but at least she might participate.

Modifié par flemm, 08 novembre 2011 - 01:20 .

[naledgeborn]

Well, it's time to dust ourselves off and work with what we have. If a cameo it is, then let's try to push for the baddestass cameo rivaling the ending cutscene levels of epic. Moping around won't do nobody good. And pretending like it's all good and it's not gonna happen is worse.

I say the fandom start pushing out as much material as possible. The artists should go to work so that the less talented people can push it across BSN, Twitter, and the rest of the web. I'm talking manips, fan-art, fan fic, whatever.

I don't like going out with a whimper is all I'm saying.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 08 novembre 2011 - 01:20 .

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Actually, that would not suck. Her appearance in the game would still be rather short, but we can live with that I think. What's important is that she gets the opportunity to be something more than a damsel in distress, that the mission where we meet her again is not the end of her screen presence, and that we have her with us when we confront TIM. It's her old boss, after all, in whom she believed and who had her loyalty for twenty years. If there's anything left of the Miranda who believed in the cause of advancing humanity and served that cause as a competent operative, that confrontation must take place. 

I hope there's something of her left *grasps at straws*.

Suck was probably too extreme. I would be disapponted in her role and with the weakness of the plot but i could make it work and hopefully get to complete the trilogy with an element of satisfaction.

[jtav]

Pushing won't work. They've made up their mind by this point. But I do encourage lots of fic and art. Why? Something called the Fiction Identity Postulate. All fiction is equally (un)real. Miranda Lawson never existed. She's pixels and dialogue. I can't do anything about pixels, but dialogue? Oh, yes I can. I've been accused of arrogantly believing I know better than the professional writers at Bioware. Do you know what professional means? You're paid for it. That's it. There's no guarantee of quality. So, now I *am* saying I know better. I can do better than her creators. So can many of you.

Let's do better.

Modifié par jtav, 08 novembre 2011 - 01:55 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Anyway, lots of Oriana in the dossier, and that's seemingly the main focus of her appearance in the game. So, I would say that the odds of the rest of it being relevant just went up by a lot.

Perhaps that's a little premature. The first message we get is about her father's re-established connection with Cerberus and her trying to track that connection. Oriana comes later.

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
My faints hopes reside in possibility that the rescue might at least be re-written so that she has already broken out when we arrive coupled with the tiny possibility that she can then join the squad. It would still suck but not as extremely as it currently seems to.

Actually, that would not suck. Her appearance in the game would still be rather short, but we can live with that I think. What's important is that she gets the opportunity to be something more than a damsel in distress, that the mission where we meet her again is not the end of her screen presence, and that we have her with us when we confront TIM. It's her old boss, after all, in whom she believed and who had her loyalty for twenty years. If there's anything left of the Miranda who believed in the cause of advancing humanity and served that cause as a competent operative, that confrontation must take place.

I hope there's something of her left *grasps at straws*.

It's still possible that Miranda is ME3's late-game squad member, sort of like Legion in ME2. Which might lead to her having some extra dialogue with TIM during that confrontation. Honestly, given the way these missions are organized, Miranda should at least come along for that. Doesn't seem like she will have the impact we would like, but at least she might participate.

Impact on the main plot = zip, nada, nothing, or so it seems atm. Well, not that she doesn't share that situation with everyone else but Liara and Ashley/Kaidan. If Miranda's going to be ME3's Legion, they better add some significance. 

All that though pales to insignificance before that unbearable badass decay heavily implied in the description of the overall situation. That's the thing that gets to me and makes me unable to even look at Miranda screenshots without falling into an emotional pit. If that impression proves to be correct, then I'm going to wish I never started playing Mass Effect back in 2008.

I'm reminded of those movie sequels that sucked so hard that fans pretended it didn't exist. I don't think ME3 as a will be that, but Miranda's role might overshadow things so much that it might as well be.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 novembre 2011 - 01:42 .

[naledgeborn]

 "However insignificant we may be we will fight, we will sacrifice, and we will find a way! That's what Mirimancers do." 

Ok, I hate that line, but I couldn't resist. 

Modifié par naledgeborn, 08 novembre 2011 - 01:44 .

[MisterJB]

Randy06 just provided me with my new wallpaper, thank you. Matches my state of mind perfectly.

flemm wrote...
Yeah, like the Reaper IFF, there could be a bit of flexibility as to how soon you go after TIM.

I'm still hoping that Miranda's Mission is the "Collector Cruiser" while the final battle with Cerberus is the "Derelict Reaper".

flemm wrote...
When we see the actual scenes, this might end up being clearer. But honestly, it may come down to what the SB files were basically suggesting, which is that the writers' view of Miranda is that she woke up from her committment to Cerberus and her career and decided she wanted to devote herself to family, having children, and a normal life, like Oriana.

But why? Why can't she have both? Why can't she be someone who will shoot a traitor in the neck without hesitation and also someone who does an extensive background check on her sister's potential boyfriends?
Why, Bioware? Why?

Unfortunately, the dossier does seem to have been teasing Miranda's involvement in ME3 very heavily, as it does for a few other characters. At this point a miracle pregnancy seems increasingly plausible tbh. "Unfinished business, especially if you romanced her in ME2, etc."
 

Well, that could be potentially solvable. We would just have to turn her down before the SM. Unlike the romances in ME1, wether you consumated it or not is flagged. For confrontation purposes, I assume.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Pushing won't work. They've made up their mind by this point. But I do encourage lots of fic and art. Why? Something called the Fiction Identity Postulate. All fiction is equally (un)real. Miranda Lawson never existed. She's pixels and dialogue. I can't do anything about pixels, but dialogue? Oh, yes I can. I've been accused of arrogantly believing I know better than the professional writers at Bioware. Do you know what professional means? You're paid for it. That's it. There's no guarantee of quality. So, no I *am* saying I know better. I can do better than her creators. So can many of you.

All right. That's about the best thing anyone has posted about this debacle since yesterday, including me. I second that.

Yes, we can do better. We can write Miranda as we want her, and if ME3 contradicts us, to hell with it. 

[enayasoul]

Ieldra2 wrote...

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
Just...why this of all things. I get a cameo. But why would anyone want her so diminished?

Well, I can think of some reasons. None of them good.

When we see the actual scenes, this might end up being clearer. But honestly, it may come down to what the SB files were basically suggesting, which is that the writers' view of Miranda is that she woke up from her committment to Cerberus and her career and decided she wanted to devote herself to family, having children, and a normal life, like Oriana.

Just when I thought I was on my way out of the pit of depression, I must read this. What a disaster that would be. Exactly what *nobody* here wanted, and they KNEW it. From the earliest day of the first fan thread, people liked Miranda for her competence, her ability to be someone on her own, walking through hell and back at Shepard's side. I maintain my statement that if this happens, it's a deliberate kick in the face of Miranda's fans.   

Which is why I'm still holding some hope that it won't happen. Maybe there will a decision at the point where we meet her father, and we can influence which kind of person she'll be in future and how she views herself and her enhancements.... *grasps at straws*

Unfortunately, the dossier does seem to have been teasing Miranda's involvement in ME3 very heavily, as it does for a few other characters. At this point a miracle pregnancy seems increasingly plausible tbh. "Unfinished business, especially if you romanced her in ME2, etc."

That would be the last straw, the final nail in the coffin of the superspy I'd come to love in ME2.

At this point, some word of reassurance from Bioware would be really welcome. They could say it's our own fault for having read the spoilers, but can they really expect us read things like "Miranda fans are screwed" or "Miranda dies offscreen" (for which, I hurry to say, there is not a shred of evidence) in some random semi-spoilery post and not go and check out the details? 

Speak for  yourself.  Not every Miranda fan wants what YOU want.  Well it kind of is your own fault for reading outdated material and believing it.   I'm not so upset over it.  Even on facebook, they are saying it's outdated information and not exactly what's in the final game. 

I want Miranda and Shepard to have babies together.  Miracle or not.   I can see Miranda finding a cure for herself.  She's smart enough to figure out what the bleep is wrong with her.  I've always imagined she'd find out what's wrong, with Mordin's help and succeed in becoming a mother.  That's my idea.  I think Miranda would make a great mom.  Overprotective, loving and want only the best for her child.