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[MisterJB]

My single greatest problem with the leak is Oriana.
Including her just screams to me of lazy writing. There were many others ways Miranda could have participated in the story. Choosing the one we've already seen suggests that the writers didn't know what to do with Miranda or that they chose to simply focus on Miranda's issues with her "family" in detriment of everything else she could have contributed.
There are other things that bother but seems to me that Jtav and Ieldra have already approached them.

However, I'm going to play the Devil's advocate for a moment and say that Miranda did not ask Shepard to go out of his way to attack A-E's HQ. The mission will play out in Sanctuary, one of Cerberus' major strongholds, and the focus of it will be ackquiring TIM's location.
Now, this means that Miranda will not be the focus of her misson. This is upsetting but, to be fair, neither will any of the other characters as far as I know. Mordin's mission focus on the Genophage Cure, Jack's focus on the biotic children of Grissom Academy.
And this could also mean that Miranda has been taking the fight to Cerberus like we had previously especulated. I would still prefer if Oriana's role was just scratched from the mission in it's entirety.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:05 .

[Ohei]

MisterJB wrote...

My single greatest problem with the leak is Oriana.
Including her just screams to me of lazy writing. There were many others ways Miranda could have participated in the story. Choosing the one we've already seen suggests that the writers didn't know what to do with Miranda or that they chose to simply focus on Miranda's issues with her "family" in detriment of everything else she could have contributed.
There are other things that bother but seems to me that Jtav and Ieldra have already approached them.

However, I'm going to play the Devil's advocate for a moment and say that Miranda did not ask Shepard to go out of his way to attack A-E's HQ. The mission will play out in Sanctuary, one of Cerberus' major strongholds, and the focus of it will be ackquiring TIM's location.
Now, this means that Miranda will not be the focus of her misson. This is upsetting but, to be fair, neither will any of the other characters as far as I know. Mordin's mission focus on the Genophage Cure, Jack's focus on the biotic children of Grissom Academy.
And this could also mean that Miranda has been taking the fight to Cerberus like we had previously especulated. I would still prefer if Oriana's role was just scratched from the mission in it's entirety.

I actually agree with you on the Oriana bit. That was ME2's loyalty mission. They should move forward, haha.

[naledgeborn]

DBL

Modifié par naledgeborn, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:13 .

[naledgeborn]

It's in the doc. Cat stands for Catalyst. Don't if it's referencing an in game plot device or if it's dev shorthand for the story structure 

Modifié par naledgeborn, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:13 .

[MisterJB]

nitefyre410 wrote...
snip

I would like Miranda and Shepard to have children together. It's not a "must" for me in order to continue the romance but it's definitively one of my hopes for the epilogue. I could even live with a "miracle" pregnancy, even if there are other ways I would prefer it to happen.
However, during the actual ME3, I'd rather have Miranda contribute meaningfully to the war effort than have her role shortened because she's carrying her's and Shepard's child.

Something to cheer us up. 


I like this picture. It's not necessarely romantic but you can see a lot of complicity between the two.

Also, I wonder what this role means for S/S Miranda and the "Damn it, you're right." romance.

[CrutchCricket]

Maybe what we needed is a new voice to support the hope. Excellent points Ohei! Again I don't think the leak implies anything, all this is just stuf we've inferred with probable reason.

Another thought occurs. If you had to make a story like ME3 how would you do it? Think of what they're promising, with all the choices past and present, characters that may or may not be etc. How would you even begin such a colossal task? You couldn't do it the way you do a regular narrative. So you start with overaching plot:

Shepard goes here, here, here, does this, and this, goes here again, then here, then end then win. Then cake.

Great. Now you've got to start writing everyone in, making sure their placement makes sense, what they're doing makes sense and where they end up makes sense. On top of that you have to account for the possibilities that they're dead, or how they can differ more subtlely (ie. Garrus, pushed more renegade or Paragon? Recurited in ME1 vs ME2?). Finally you can't just have them running around in the background. They must play a part.

Obviously this is handled by a team, perhaps one writer doing each character or a few at a time. Still there's one guy that's putting it all together (the lead?). So as your draft grows it becomes a matter of filling in the blanks in the main story before flushing out individual characters (though this may be streamlined). But before character work begins or is even close to finalization, it seems natural to fill the blanks so the main story doesn't get tripped up in details. So how do you fill in the blanks? Does it not make sense to take a quick and dirty summary of each character and stick them in the blank which best works for the story? Where they go may change, but the point I'm trying to make her is the character arc isn't completed and glittering when they stick it in the main plot.

So then what's to stop this leak from merely being a draft where the Miranda bit is just the placeholder summary stuck in the blank? Remember we don't know how old this is. I'm not suggesting Miranda's character is still not done. But is it so outlandish to imagine that at the time of the leak they just hadn't stuck it in yet, and only the placeholder is there? I'm not saying this with any certainty. But the probability of this is real and cannot be ignored.

And to those worried that the "summary" samples only the surface of Miranda and gives off the wrong message let me remind you that I predicted that's what the first glance of Miranda (without deeper analysis) would yield. I wouldn't be surprised if all the writers themselves (with the exception of those specifically writing her) only thought of her like that.

Conclusion: 4 months to go. Don't write her off yet.

Edit*: The Oriana situation is exactly what led me to this "placeholder" hypothesis. It just seems so obvious from a writing perspective yet out of place in universe. That's why I think it could very well be downplayed/ removed for something different and more complex.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:25 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

^ MINE! *Downloads Image*

[jtav]

I'm going to be as charitable and optimistic as I can. I'm not sure I believe this, but the gloom is starting to affect RL. If the mission occurs after Thessia, that puts it at about the same point as the Collector Ship in ME2, with TIM being IFF. And the Miranda I knew would want TIM's head on a pike after this. And I hate to keep harping on this, but Vega, VS/Liara (if that spoiler's true), Garrus, and Tali is a really crappy squad selection, and a really empty Normandy. So there's room for hope if you squint.

Modifié par jtav, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:29 .

[CrutchCricket]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

^ MINE! *Downloads Image*

Ha, true. I'm grabbin that as well. Thanks JB!

This pic actually speaks to the awesome ending I had envisioned for them where along with Liara, they develop an intergalactic shadow organization that secretly influences and in some cases downright controls events to maintain stability and to ensure the galaxy is never this weak again.

*Edited for embarrasing typos

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:30 .

[naledgeborn]

jtav wrote...

I'm going to be as charitable and optimistic as I can. I'm not sure I believe this, but the gloom is starting to affect RL. If the mission occurs after Thessia, that puts it at about the same point as the Collector Ship in ME2, with TIM being IFF. And the Miranda I knew would want TIM's head on a pike after this. And I hate to keep harping on this, but Vega, VS/Liara (if that spoiler's true), Garrus, and Tali is a really crappy squad selection, and a really empty Normandy. So there's room for hope if you squint.

You could always side with the Geth... Might change the team dynamic around. 

[redBadger14]

There isn't much optimism left here but I will try to inject what little sense and optimism I can into this thread, considering the leaked story draft is again, an early, rough, story draft.

You all *assume* Miranda will be relegated to a very minor and diminishing role in ME3 simply because the draft mentions we will be helping her save Oriana. Well I have a little thought that could, you know, be totally plausible as a possible plot direction with Miranda in ME3.

First off, lets take what we know from the story leak. Done. Second, let's take Casey Hudson's statement of "Miranda will have a large role in ME3." Done.

Now lets think for a second. All we know firsthand is that we need to help Miranda save Oriana. Okay, now if I am half as sane as I think I am, this sounds like a starting off point with Miranda in ME3, a "pickup" point if you will. Who has Oriana? Her father. Who is her father closely connected to? The Illusive Man. Who is hunting Shepard in ME3 besides the Reapers? The Illusive Man and Cerberus. Who resigned from Cerberus for not believing in "the ends justify the means and screw everyone else if it helps humanity"? Miranda.

When I think of the overall plot of ME3, I think Shepard and every other person wants to stop the Reapers. I also think Cerberus is a clear thorn in his side and Shepard realizes that he can't fight two wars. I certainly think Miranda trusts Shepard way more than The Illusive Man at this point, and Miranda clearly has a concern for Oriana because Oriana is the only family she will have left, that she can actually love.

You know what Shepard would love though? Certainly he wants to get Cerberus out of the way, but what is better than destroying Cerberus outright? Getting Cerberus to ally with himself and the rest of the galaxy. Miranda has nothing to fall back on except Oriana and Shepard since leaving Cerberus, and Miranda strikes me as the person that wants to be a successful operative and an aspiring leader, but also wants to have the chance to settle down with those she loves.

I have been dancing around the bush here, but all this has been food for thought for you guys. Now let me get straight to the point with as sharp a plot device as I can here. Not extremely detailed, but something to speculate on. A groundwork.

Shepard starts off with Miranda in ME3 (at whatever point) in helping her save Oriana from her father. This is likely to lead to an inevitable confrontation with her father somewhere along the line, and choices will likely have to be made in regards to Oriana (maybe not though who knows). Miranda's father has connections to TIM, and this confrontation with her father gives Shepard an amazing opportunity; to be able to track down TIM and stop him once and for all. Let's speculate for a second that, whatever happens, Oriana is saved, Miranda's father is stopped (in some way), and Shepard discovers the location of The Illusive Man and/or the main Cerberus headquarters. Naturally, I think Miranda would accompany Shepard to revisit TIM knowing full well Cerberus is trying to kill Shepard. Who knows, maybe after Miranda's resignation, TIM has had Cerberus hunting her too. Think on that for a minute while I continue.

So, the final premise is that Shepard and Miranda travel to The Illusive Man's base and cue huge battle en route to TIM signature office. I speculate there will be major decisions upon confronting TIM (possibly a boss fight too). Imagine this, a major choice regarding Miranda, The Illusive Man, and Cerberus. Shepard can do one of two things; Kill The Illusive Man, let Miranda take control of Cerberus and all it's assets and allow her to realign Cerberus with Shepard's cause to fight the Reapers (Paragon naturally), OR Shepard can spare The Illusive Man in exchange for leaving him in control of Cerberus while making TIM promise to stop hunting Shepard and start helping his cause, causing Miranda to become extremely upset and leave Shepard entirely (Renegade choice).

Depending on the major choice here, Miranda can become what she's always wanted to be; a leader for humanity's progression in the universe, while also retaining Oriana, the only family she has left to love (with the exception of Shepard if romanced). This allows for HUGE character growth on Miranda's part. Now, obviously the speculated Renegade choice could be the biggest downfall we see of Miranda. Possibly. Again this is all speculation and optimism, but it doesn't hurt right?

Now, I just sat down and calmly thought and wrote that out to you guys because I felt it to be an amazing plot prospect. It probably does have holes; that's expected if I just sat down and wrote it out on two cups of coffee. Hopefully some of you will like this possible plot direction. Hopefully I've instilled some optimism that wasn't there the past 24 hours. I don't know. But there you have it. Your thoughts on it would be appreciated at the least. Thank you for bearing with this undoubtedly long post

[jtav]

Back to pessimism for a sec, but it was Mike Gamble that said "large role." And one of the writers tweeted that he knew for a fact that some of the things said in that Q&A weren't accurate. It was a private Twitter post, so I'm guessing Weekes.

Modifié par jtav, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:39 .

[enayasoul]

Thanks JB! I am totally loving this picture of them together.

[redBadger14]

jtav wrote...

Back to pessimism for a sec, but it was Mike Gamble that said "large role." And one of the writers tweeted that he knew for a fact that some of the things said in that Q&A weren't accurate.

Well, I guess I misspoke. I would still venture though that Miranda would have a large role in ME3, not some quick "rescue my sister" sidequest.

[CrutchCricket]

We're getting there redBadger. (very) Slowly but (somewhat) surely.

Ultimately there are two factors that if properly handled will leave this thread fairly happy:
1. Miranda's on screen presence be true to her deeper character*, significant to the plot and if possible significant in length.
2. Miranda's future prospects post ME3 be open to continuation along the lines we desire.

The first gives us more enjoyment out of the game. The second allows each of us to continue loving and reveling in the character in our own ways. Either can mitigate the loss of one to a certain extent. Losing both is the worst tragedy. However at this point nothing conclusively shows we have lost either. So now we wait...

*Edit I felt I had to include this though this is fairly nebulous to define. Each of us have our variations but the fact that we agree on some things does suggest a common understating of what her character is/should be.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:45 .

[redBadger14]

CrutchCricket wrote...

We're getting there redBadger. (very) Slowly but (somewhat) surely.

Ultimately there are two factors that if properly handled will leave this thread fairly happy:
1. Miranda's on screen presence be significant to the plot and if possible significant in length
2. Miranda's future prospects post ME3 be open to continuation along the lines we desire.

The first gives us more enjoyment out of the game. The second allows each of us to continue loving and reveling in the character in our own ways. Either can mitigate the loss of one to a certain extent. Losing both is the worst tragedy. However at this point nothing conclusively shows we have lost either. So now we wait...

Which I believe a healthy balance of both is the best for every character.

[flemm]

IsaacShep wrote...
Cat 3 opens up the final arc of the game and is the equivalent of Reaper IFF IMO. It's the point of no return. Cat 2 has to happen quite some time before that, like Horizon had to happen before Reaper IFF.

You could be right. Horizon, or maybe the Collector Ship. In which case it would put Miranda's mission somewhere around where the second batch of RMs happen in ME2. The tricky detail is that Miranda's mission seems to be what gives you access to TIM's location. Not sure how early that could realistically happen.

As a beginning to Miranda's involvement in the game, I have no issue at all with Oriana as a plot hook. One of the writers' goals was apparently to tie up loose ends, so it makes sense that she would make an appearance. It would basically be a lead-in to Miranda dealing with her father, which is not a repeat of ME2 and is definitely on my wishlist.

So, optimistic reading of this is that Miranda joins up following the mission, somewhere in the mid-game. I agree with jtav that the relative scarcity of squad members is an argument in favor of this possibility. Apparently, there aren't really any new squad members other than Vega, Prothy and maybe Aria for at least a while.

If that had been confirmed separately I honestly would have said Miranda was a lock for the squad. So, maybe.

redBadger14 wrote...

So, the final premise is that Shepard and Miranda travel to The Illusive Man's base and cue huge battle en route to TIM signature office. I speculate there will be major decisions upon confronting TIM (possibly a boss fight too). Imagine this, a major choice regarding Miranda, The Illusive Man, and Cerberus. Shepard can do one of two things; Kill The Illusive Man, let Miranda take control of Cerberus and all it's assets and allow her to realign Cerberus with Shepard's cause to fight the Reapers (Paragon naturally), OR Shepard can spare The Illusive Man in exchange for leaving him in control of Cerberus while making TIM promise to stop hunting Shepard and start helping his cause, causing Miranda to become extremely upset and leave Shepard entirely (Renegade choice).

Depending on the major choice here, Miranda can become what she's always wanted to be; a leader for humanity's progression in the universe, while also retaining Oriana, the only family she has left to love (with the exception of Shepard if romanced). This allows for HUGE character growth on Miranda's part. Now, obviously the speculated Renegade choice could be the biggest downfall we see of Miranda. Possibly. Again this is all speculation and optimism, but it doesn't hurt right?

Good post, and I know a lot of fans have envisioned Miranda playing a big role at the end of the Cerberus arc and confronting TIM, with perhaps some kind of big choice happening there. It's still possible, if she joins up after her initial mission. There was only very fragmentary info in the leak, that I could see, regarding how the actual scene with TIM would play out.

Modifié par flemm, 08 novembre 2011 - 04:39 .

[casedawgz]

Also, I'm expecting a pretty long finale in which I wouldn't be at all surprised if you could choose anyone still alive to be in your squad.

[Skullheart]

I want Miranda in the squad to take her on every mision related to cerberus... Including confrontations with Leng and TIM.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
So then what's to stop this leak from merely being a draft where the Miranda bit is just the placeholder summary stuck in the blank? Remember we don't know how old this is. I'm not suggesting Miranda's character is still not done. But is it so outlandish to imagine that at the time of the leak they just hadn't stuck it in yet, and only the placeholder is there? I'm not saying this with any certainty. But the probability of this is real and cannot be ignored.

It makes no sense to leave some info in the files that haven't, at some time, been correct. Remember that this is not from the actual game file, but from a design document. Of course it's incomplete, very much so, very noticeably so, and more incomplete the older it is. But I'd take any bet that all Miranda-related info is 100% correct. It's just not all there is and it tells us nothing about how the scenes actually play out.

Edit*: The Oriana situation is exactly what led me to this "placeholder" hypothesis. It just seems so obvious from a writing perspective yet out of place in universe. That's why I think it could very well be downplayed/ removed for something different and more complex.

Downplayed, possibly. Removed, no. They want to tie up all loose ends for the characters, and Oriana is one for Miranda. Actually, I think it hasn't been good for Miranda to have so many dangling plot hooks that need to be resolved. Much easier to write some character growth for someone like Jack. That's why I hoped that the Oriana situation had been resolved between games.

[CrutchCricket]

Skullheart wrote...

I want Miranda in the squad to take her on every mision related to cerberus... Including confrontations with Leng and TIM.

You know, there'll probably be a Gibbed-style way of hacking the game so you can get Miranda as a squadmate even if she's not supposed to be with you story wise. So fans of her combat abilities won't lose out at all.

[jtav]

Another, grasping at straws, thing. Someone on the squad has Slam. It could be Aria or Prothy, but it's something to hold on to.

[casedawgz]

Who's Prothy? Tell me its not what it sounds like.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Downplayed, possibly. Removed, no. They want to tie up all loose ends for the characters, and Oriana is one for Miranda. Actually, I think it hasn't been good for Miranda to have so many dangling plot hooks that need to be resolved. Much easier to write some character growth for someone like Jack. That's why I hoped that the Oriana situation had been resolved between games.

Basically, if that mission is her only involvement, it's going to be disappointing. If it's a lead-in to other things, it could be ok, especially if the rest were really good. Some of that may be wishful thinking, of course.

But, as it stands, it seems like the game would be pretty lacking in squad members and LIs. So, I dunno. Realistically, some other characters, other than the few already announced, probably do stick around for an extended period.

Modifié par flemm, 08 novembre 2011 - 04:48 .

[jtav]

It's *exactly* what it sounds like.

And hacking the game requires her to have a combat role in the first place. That's still an open question.