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[GarrusAndMiranda]

If Miranda isn't in the crew, I may hurt myself.

[Ieldra]

Again, answering a few things that came up while I was away. This thread has now officially become insane.

Jacob and a possible interference in a Miranda/Shepard romance:
I don't think it will happen. But should it, why worry about it? Do you really expect that interference to be successful unless you make a big blunder visible from a mile away? Calm down. And all the Jacob hate is totally inappropriate. I like Jacob and it's a sad thing he'll probably have a very small role in ME.

Miranda/NPC romance:
As much as I like Jacob, I wouldn't like to see Miranda with him. She already tried that and it failed. It would be a step back for her. I think Kaidan would be a nice fit, but I don't think they'll make it happen. It will have to be relegated to fanfic.

A badass cutscene with Miranda:
I'd like to see some martial arts-like stuff combined with biotics, showing off Miranda's superior agility and co-ordination. No over-the-top Gun Fu, please. All of it should stay within reasonable limits of over-the-top-ness (unlike Kasumi and Hock's gunship, for instance). BTW, Miranda cannot wield double SMGs. The one who said that appears to have her mixed up with Lara Croft.

Are Cerberus terrorists:
Not exactly on-topic here, but even so: It's a matter of perspective. The term is more often used for propaganda these days than for accurate description, so I wouldn't trust anyone, not even my own government, when they call someone a terrorist without further evidence. It's certainly not enough for a reflexive hate. If you react to the word with reflexive hate, then you are falling to propaganda, since that's exactly what they're trying to do: make you not think too much about it.
Having said that, Cerberus is rogue intelligence group gone paramilitary, responsible for lots of crimes. Whether you say it's justifiable, excusable or not is in part a matter of perspective, but there can be no doubt that they've done things that count as crimes anywhere in the galaxy. 
Again, having said that, that's no reason to claim everyone working for them is a criminal. The Lazarus cell people, for instance, don't appear to be.   
In short, things are grey. The grey is getting pretty dark in places, but it's still grey.

Not buying the game if Miranda is cameo'd:
It's everyone's choice how to spend their money. I won't do that - in fact, I've already preordered the CE - but I understand the sentiment. Miranda is one of the most interesting characters in the ME trilogy and I wish it was her game rather than Shepard's at times, so really, I understand. But the epic SF story is just too interesting to pass up. 
If Miranda is cameo'd, it will instead lessen my anticipation of other games that try what ME does with characters, namely character and story continuity spanning more than one game. And it will make me think twice of emotional investments in video game characters in Bioware games.
But I don't think Miranda will be cameo'd.

Oriana's reaction to Miranda working for Cerberus:
Oriana will be shocked, but she's as smart as Miranda. She'll take a mental step back and think about it, then press Miranda for details. Possibly there will be some distance between the sisters. From there, it could go anywhere from total estrangement to total reconciliation. 
But I don't think Miranda told her. It would be too dangerous for Oriana to know.

My "Do Not Want" List:
*Miranda indoctrinated
*Miranda helpless or incompetent. The latter includes sentimentality unduly influencing decisions and recommendations. It threatens her image as a competent operative.
*A forced tragic outcome of her story, regardless of my decisions.

Miranda f/f romance:
Count me out. I wouldn't have minded had she been available for that in ME2, but I'm against retconning sexual orientation. Miranda is established in my mind as straight, it has influenced how I think about her, and I wouldn't like to see it changed. Sexual orientation isn't a thing you can patch on just anyone. Also I absolutely *hated* how they made everyone bi in DA2. That's just ridiculous. I'd rather live with being unable to romance my favorite character with half of my protagonists than with an "everyone bi" scenario. I'd rather people play protagonists of different genders as a solution to the problem. That applies to both sides.

Miranda as a romantic:
As a rule I don't think she is. She's too detached and matter-of-fact for that as a rule. Also she's a alpha female, she'll likely be somewhat dominant in a relationship. Nonetheless she may be open to very specific romantic gestures, but she'll be more touched by her partner making the effort than the gesture itself. Most likely, she'll react with a mix of exasperation and amusement but indulge her partner somewhat.
As for initiating them, that will be rare but might happen later in an established relationship. Possibly she'll look for means to express her feelings, being not familiar with such stuff, and try one or the other thing out with varying degrees of success.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2011 - 09:05 .

[ParadoxAu]

Melrache wrote...

jtav wrote...
I think Miranda's chances are fair to good. Cerberus has a large role and she was the most used squad member.

That's true. I haven't really looked up too much about the game yet, so I
don't know that much. I am just waiting for the day when someone emails
me her being full time member and I bother read more again.
There's still a lot more to come... Just have to wait and see. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]
BioWare will be getting my money through SW:TOR anyway, but I am not
refusing to buy ME3, because I want to boycott BW. Just because I want
the story to end the way it feels like it's my story and the characters
I want to be present, are present in quantity and way, that I want them
to be. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Yannkee wrote...

Melrache wrote...
Well, but nobody knows if they're just small cameos or actually proper roles. If it's just that she'll be like Liara in LOTSB, I am most likely not buying it.

Me neither.

I'm the same.

Melrache wrote...

I think it's way past the point of
having affect on her role in the game. I just hope, that their amazement
about the length of the support thread, doesn't mean that they realize
making a big mistake to one direction or another. And are already too
far to fix it.

Sadly, I think you're right.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Again, answering a few things that came up while I was away. This thread has now officially become insane.

Too Right Mate.. It's hard to Keep Up.

Modifié par ParadoxAu, 24 juin 2011 - 07:35 .

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hmm. It appears I'm coming back for the most interesting tidbit of information of the week. Nothing is permanent appears to mean no one is permanently on the team as well, unless CH was deliberately misleading.

As long as it's truly no one, no exceptions for the likes of Liara and the VS, I'm fine with it.

It also appears that my scenario of characters getting in and out of the team based on our decisions may come to pass.

Now there's only one thing missing: That he says about Miranda what he says about Tali: that she'll be able to join our team.

he's pretty much said that, without saying it directly. looks like they have confirmed pretty much what everyone suspected - squaddies will be plug/play depending on the current mission, then factor in the LI connection and possibly the end-battle/whatever.

[Melra]

I think I could live with that, if that's how they'd go about it. At least everyone had about equal share of stuff to do. Also, it would just be like, every squaddie having their own frontier where they'd fight for their own homes or such and Shepard would be needed to come and tip the fight in their favour. I wonder what Miranda's place would be in that case.

I'll have to wait and see, before I make up my mind.

[Jebel Krong]

jtav wrote...

Miranda is an apologist for an organization that has committed medical and regular torture, including children and nearly killed a Sole Survivor. Better?

well, she was, certainly - less so after the collector ship (if you take her), then converse and then SM kinda finishes removing the scales from her eyes.

i like that she's still pro-human and motivated by that beyond simple cerberus objectives.

[Jebel Krong]

jtav wrote...

I can see Kaidan and Miranda needling each other about misplaced loyalty and whether ends justify means, but with an underlying respect. Maybe Miranda being a little forlorn at losing her spot at Shepard's right hand. And sexual tension.

what, with shep?

[Jebel Krong]

jtav wrote...

I'm kinda rooting for Jacob/Miranda with my otherwise occupied Shepards. Not as much as Kaudan/Miranda, but I'd be happy if they tweaked his character a bit.

jacob and miranda had their thing and during ME2 it becomes abundantly clear they are moving in opposite directions (certainly more on Miranda's part), Jacob seemed to be resigned to it, too, if not completely comfortable yet.

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...

jtav wrote...

Miranda is an apologist for an organization that has committed medical and regular torture, including children and nearly killed a Sole Survivor. Better?

well, she was, certainly - less so after the collector ship (if you take her), then converse and then SM kinda finishes removing the scales from her eyes.

i like that she's still pro-human and motivated by that beyond simple cerberus objectives.

Now that I think of it - her pro-human but not xenophobic stance is one of her most interesting traits. She's working for human advancement, but at the same she's open for cultural influences from other species, for instance saying explicitly that humanity could learn a lot from the asari. I'd call this "enlightened self-interest" and it's quite rare among the humans we meet. Most of the pro-human types have their share of xenophobia. Ashley, for instance, given that she compares aliens to animals in a banter line.

As for Miranda and Cerberus, I think it's this: If "advancement and protection of humanity" has any meaning at all, then at some point it must translate into "advancement and protection of humans". There is a limit to sacrificing humans to some abstract idea of what humanity can be, beyond which you cannot say that you are protecting humanity any more, though the advancement may still apply in some way. Miranda may have discovered that Cerberus has overstepped her limit, and if she thinks TIM will sacrifice humans on a large scale to decipher the secrets of the Collector base, then even talking about betrayal would be justified, except that they made her say  "using anything from this base...", which she wouldn't say. She wouldn't be averse to taking parts away and study them, nobody could convince me of that. She's too practical for that. She'd only be averse to sacrificing humans on a large scale.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2011 - 10:10 .

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

jtav wrote...

Miranda is an apologist for an organization that has committed medical and regular torture, including children and nearly killed a Sole Survivor. Better?

well, she was, certainly - less so after the collector ship (if you take her), then converse and then SM kinda finishes removing the scales from her eyes.

i like that she's still pro-human and motivated by that beyond simple cerberus objectives.

Now that I think of it - her pro-human but not xenophobic stance is one of her most interesting traits. She's working for human advancement, but at the same she's open for cultural influences from other species, for instance saying explicitly that humanity could learn a lot from the asari. I'd call this "enlightened self-interest" and it's quite rare among the humans we meet. Most of the pro-human types have their share of xenophobia. Ashley, for instance, given that she compares aliens to animals in a banter line.

As for Miranda and Cerberus, I think it's this: If "advancement and protection of humanity" has any meaning at all, then at some point it must translate into "advancement and protection of humans". There is a limit to sacrificing humans to some abstract idea of what humanity can be, beyond which you cannot say that you are protecting humanity any more, though the advancement may still apply in some way. Miranda may have discovered that Cerberus has overstepped her limit, and if she thinks TIM will sacrifice humans on a large scale to decipher the secrets of the Collector base, then even talking about betrayal would be justified, except that they made her say  "using anything from this base...", which she wouldn't say. She wouldn't be averse to taking parts away and study them, nobody could convince me of that. She's too practical for that. She'd only be averse to sacrificing humans on a large scale.

the line's not the best, but forgivable since the dispassionate intellectual "knowing" of something is very much less in your face than actually being there first-hand. not that she's blind to the immediacy of action, but the scale of the collector base is on another level entirely: genociding a species to create a reaper. the allusion of TIM wanting that would be enough for any rational person to have second thoughts, however expressed.

some thing i noticed when watching both endings is that the game is actually tailored to the "blow the base up" ending regarding the explosion - the radiation pulse wouldn't have the effect shown and would have been much less dramatic, showing it as it is makes it more audience-pleasing, but the "forced morality" choice of the situation, where it isn't one - or warranted - spoils it anyway.

[O Tucker]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

http://twitter.com/#...114300813328385

"Tali will be able to join your team, but nothing's permanent in #ME3 - it's a story of full-scale war, with lots of twists."

So...what does this mean...?

Part of me thinks squadmates will rotate in and out of our crew

Another part of me thinks hes using the word permanent to describe the game (ie: not linear) and weasel his way out of truly answering the question...

This could mean that Miranda could be a Permanent sqaud mate for a periode of time?

[Ieldra]

O Tucker wrote...
This could mean that Miranda could be a Permanent sqaud mate for a periode of time?

Please read what you have written. Are you aware that "permanent" and "only for a period of time" are mutually exclusive? If a team member leaves at some point, whether to come back later or not, it is by definition not permanent.

I think what you mean is "Is her presence on the team limited to specific missions only (in which case she wouldn't really be part of the team) or is her recruitment and leavetaking triggered to specific events, whose timing and/or taking place we can influence to a certain degree, with an undefined number of missions in-between. The latter scenario would of course be highly preferrable.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2011 - 12:06 .

[MisterJB]

For some reason this new tweet from Hudson reminds me of Kingdom Hearts.
However, the problem with this is that while we have seen Mordin and Legion on their respective homeworlds, we have also seen Liara and Garrus on Sur'Kesh and Rannoch. This seems to indicate that some squadmates will be exceptions and be permanent, just like Donald and Goofy were for the Kingdom Hearts series.
Fortunately, I think Miranda has a good chance of being one of these exceptions, since we will encounter Cerberus on many different wolds.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 juin 2011 - 12:30 .

[Melra]

Sure, if you think about it that way. Personally, I'd love nothing more than to see Shepard's trial interrupted by few gunshots, then see Miranda walk into the room with few, Ex Cerberus, Commandos...

I'd just love for her to show up, give the Alliance the middle finger, take her man out, after slapping him on the head for being an idiot and getting caught.

[Ieldra]

Melrache wrote...
Sure, if you think about it that way. Personally, I'd love nothing more than to see Shepard's trial interrupted by few gunshots, then see Miranda walk into the room with few, Ex Cerberus, Commandos...

I'd just love for her to show up, give the Alliance the middle finger, take her man out, after slapping him on the head for being an idiot and getting caught.

LOL. A perfect scenario, I'd love it. Sadly, chances we'll get it appear pretty low, given that the trial will apparently be interrupted by the arrival of the Reapers, followed by that sequence with Anderson in the demo.

Also, you and me both appear to have a certain dislike of the Alliance. What's your beef with them?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2011 - 01:00 .

[jtav]

So we get Mass Effect: Kingdom Hearts? I can live with that. The VS, Garrus, and Vega can be Donald and Goofy.

[S.A.K]

@CaseyDHudson@fpsanalyst @beyond_galactus Wow, 65 pages of love for Miranda! She'll be in #ME3 of course, but we'll keep scale of all roles a suprise.
So you guys are getting a suprise. I am guessing her role is pretty big!

Modifié par S.A.K, 24 juin 2011 - 01:14 .

[Melra]

I have no real beef, I appreciate them in some manner. Especially the Citadel battle showed, that they're somewhat capable. I just don't like it in general, when military gets mixed into politics. Hackett is one of my favorite characters in the games, that's what kinda evens it out, but the more I get to know about Alliance, the more clear it becomes, that only thing that has kept Alliance away from further disrupting Shepard's operations has been Hackett and Anderson. And those two have ran out of tricks, so Shepard gets thrown to the wolves.

In short, military should only focus on military aspects, without too great focus on the ''public image''.

Also I like the idea of Miranda challenging the Alliance as a whole, simply because she's a competent woman who knows what has to be done and while not being heartless, she's ready to pay the price that is required to complete the missions.Alliance on the other hand wants to get everything done nice and clean, while endangering their own people, just to make some unimportant factions pat them on the head. As well as, that I see the leaders of Alliance being narrow minded old men who's best days are behind them, who also hold onto some level of chauvinism.

It's just those types of people, that I love to humiliate in real life as well. Though they're not always old.

S.A.K wrote...

@CaseyDHudson@fpsanalyst
@beyond_galactus Wow, 65 pages of love for Miranda! She'll be in #ME3
of course, but we'll keep scale of all roles a suprise.
So you guys are getting a suprise. I am guessing her role is pretty big!

That has been linked already. If you want to take it that way, it might as well mean, that Casey went ''OMFG.. How is there so many of them? We're screwed guys, time to start and minimize the damage!''

Modifié par Melrache, 24 juin 2011 - 01:35 .

[Jebel Krong]

MisterJB wrote...

For some reason this new tweet from Hudson reminds me of Kingdom Hearts.
However, the problem with this is that while we have seen Mordin and Legion on their respective homeworlds, we have also seen Liara and Garrus on Sur'Kesh and Rannoch. This seems to indicate that some squadmates will be exceptions and be permanent, just like Donald and Goofy were for the Kingdom Hearts series.
Fortunately, I think Miranda has a good chance of being one of these exceptions, since we will encounter Cerberus on many different wolds.

or, you know, for the demo they just dropped in characters that were already announced (not spoiling any other exisiting/new ones on those missions for general release).

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 24 juin 2011 - 01:23 .

[Rawke]

Melrache wrote...

I have no real beef, I appreciate them in some manner. Especially the Citadel battle showed, that they're somewhat capable. I just don't like it in general, when military gets mixed into politics. Hackett is one of my favorite characters in the games, that's what kinda evens it out, but the more I get to know about Alliance, the more clear it becomes, that only thing that has kept Alliance away from further disrupting Shepard's operations has been Hackett and Anderson. And those two have ran out of tricks, so Shepard gets thrown to the wolves.

In short, military should only focus on military aspects, without too great focus on the ''public image''.

I actually thought it was politics that got mixed into the military. You have to see Udina's perspective (just as an example). They all have to take Shepard's word for everything he says happens. I can see why they would have a hard time believing him. Would you believe some officer who told there was a race of sentient machines trying to kill everybody when the only thing that's obvious is the fact that there's a rogue spectre doing bad things? And if that same officer was suddenly back from the dead and working with what is essentially a xenophobic terrorist group that threatens everything humanity has accomplished, would that make him seem more reasonable to you? I'm actually astonished the Alliance didn't imprison Shepard earlier.

Mind you, we never have real evidence of the existence of Reapers to show to the council or anyone else (Cerberus does, but prefers to keep everyone in the dark).

In a democracy, public image is everything. The military needs recruits, the military needs money. Both is easier to get with a nice public image. And it doesn't look good if the military ignores what politicians tell them, because nobody likes an unleashed military. Nothing good ever comes from that.

[MisterJB]

Jebel Krong wrote...
or, you know, for the demo they just dropped in characters that were already announced (not spoiling any other exisiting/new ones on those missions for general release).

Also a possiblity but I seem to remember on the Rannoch demo, Garrus having dialogue specific for that mission.
"We've got the whole Quarian fleet waiting in orbit."

[Melra]

MisterJB wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
or, you know, for the demo they just dropped in characters that were already announced (not spoiling any other exisiting/new ones on those missions for general release).

Also a possiblity but I seem to remember on the Rannoch demo, Garrus having dialogue specific for that mission.
"We've got the whole Quarian fleet waiting in orbit."

I don't know why, but the ''Quarian fleet'' doesn't really convince me too much.

Anyway more on the topic, having few permanent members would be easy way to fill the holes, that were left by the possible dead members from ME2. It's bit sad though, I personally don't want Liara with me, I don't dislike the character or anything, she just doesn't fit my Shepard's team. I want Garrus+Miranda or even better Kaidan + Miranda. Liara and Kaidan being one of the few who can't die, might make them permanents.

Though Garrus is able to die in ME2, so that doesn't completely rule out Miranda. There's still some hope.

Rawke wrote...

Melrache wrote...

I have no
real beef, I appreciate them in some manner. Especially the Citadel
battle showed, that they're somewhat capable. I just don't like it in
general, when military gets mixed into politics. Hackett is one of my
favorite characters in the games, that's what kinda evens it out, but
the more I get to know about Alliance, the more clear it becomes, that
only thing that has kept Alliance away from further disrupting Shepard's
operations has been Hackett and Anderson. And those two have ran out of
tricks, so Shepard gets thrown to the wolves.

In short, military should only focus on military aspects, without too great focus on the ''public image''.

I
actually thought it was politics that got mixed into the military. You
have to see Udina's perspective (just as an example). They all have to
take Shepard's word for everything he says happens. I can see why they
would have a hard time believing him. Would you believe some officer who
told there was a race of sentient machines trying to kill everybody
when the only thing that's obvious is the fact that there's a rogue
spectre doing bad things? And if that same officer was suddenly back
from the dead and working with what is essentially a xenophobic
terrorist group that threatens everything humanity has accomplished,
would that make him seem more reasonable to you? I'm actually astonished
the Alliance didn't imprison Shepard earlier.

Mind you, we
never have real evidence of the existence of Reapers to show to the
council or anyone else (Cerberus does, but prefers to keep everyone in
the dark).

In a democracy, public image is everything. The
military needs recruits, the military needs money. Both is easier to get
with a nice public image. And it doesn't look good if the military
ignores what politicians tell them, because nobody likes an unleashed
military. Nothing good ever comes from that.

Having those two so mixed up is alright, when handling affairs, that both know as much about, but when other side is working away from home in conditions, that the politicians can't even imagine, but still continue to influence the way the military behaves, then it goes to hell.

Especially, when the politicians refuse to admit, their lack of knowledge on the matter. When you don't know something, you call in someone who does know. But after you call that someone in, you don't go about disrupting the job, you called him to do. You don't toss the blame over to that person, when all goes to hell and try to cover your own ass.

You called in someone who knows better, than you do, if it works out badly, you would've been screwed anyway so might as well take part of the blame yourself.

Modifié par Melrache, 24 juin 2011 - 01:46 .

[jtav]

Am I the only one who thinks this could be a neutral to positive development? It's not like Miranda had tons of dialogue outside the beginning of the game and her LM.

[Rawke]

MisterJB wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
or, you know, for the demo they just dropped in characters that were already announced (not spoiling any other exisiting/new ones on those missions for general release).

Also a possiblity but I seem to remember on the Rannoch demo, Garrus having dialogue specific for that mission.
"We've got the whole Quarian fleet waiting in orbit."

Wouldn't be the first time they had dialogue that wouldn't be used in the final game. There are voice recodings for the SM where Mordin'sa biotic. I bet they just have all VA read any possible dialogue for their characters, whether it's going to be used or not. Probably cheaper than having to make sure the plot's finished before they start recording.

Modifié par Rawke, 24 juin 2011 - 01:51 .

[Ieldra]

S.A.K wrote...
@CaseyDHudson@fpsanalyst @beyond_galactus Wow, 65 pages of love for Miranda! She'll be in #ME3 of course, but we'll keep scale of all roles a suprise.
So you guys are getting a suprise. I am guessing her role is pretty big!

He's just reacting to our frequently coming up wish that she'll have a big role. It doesn't mean anything.

The problem is that she can't be critical, just like everyone else except the VS, Liara and Vega. The overarching plot must still work without her presence. Though given that she's the most used team member in ME2, at least the second most popular romance *and* that she's very difficult to kill and should be alive in almost all games, I'd say her chances of having about the biggest role possible within those constraints are pretty good.

As for the length of the thread, it *is* very unusual that we're getting so big that fast, even given that Miranda is reasonably popular. Hey, I am surprised myself by the activity boost here. This thread is on steroids at the moment - six other posts were written while I was writing this one. That's crazy.  

Edit:
I don't visit the other characters threads that often, but is it correct that we are unique in being as concerned about Miranda's role in the plot as about her team member status, if not more? 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2011 - 01:51 .