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[jtav]

And every other time there have been such leaks they've claimed "early draft." And every time, the leaks were 95% accurate.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

OK am I the only one seeing the words "first draft"? Anyone else seeing that? Anyone?

It's not a surprise. Some of the levels in the leak are obviously incomplete or only sketched out. Nobody is actually assuming it represents exactly what the game will finally look like. What people are saying (probably accurately) is that the info is mostly correct and represents a rough outline of what we will eventually see in a more fleshed-out form.

However, some important things are missing almost entirely, and it's not at all clear who joins the squad or when. And there is almost nothing about the romance arcs (of which there will likely be quite a few). So, Miranda being recruitable is definitely still on the table.

How and why we initially meet her, that's likely accurate. It could be fleshed out some, and maybe circumstances changed a little.

Modifié par flemm, 08 novembre 2011 - 05:16 .

[naledgeborn]

LOL, not that too many people are thrilled about it but... Page 800!Picture time

Modifié par naledgeborn, 08 novembre 2011 - 05:12 .

[jtav]

I'm looking at a screenshot without crying. That's a step up at least. Wonder how long it'll be before I can play ME2? Don't think I'm up to it yet.

Modifié par jtav, 08 novembre 2011 - 05:15 .

[CrutchCricket]

A drowning voice in a sea of madness maybe. That's right, I'm upgrading the pond.

flemm: Seriously who gives a **** about outlines? Even ignoring the whole "it happened before therefore it MUST happen again" thing, a premise so faulty you'd think it was California, you know what else is an outline? A stick figure. Go ahead and draw a stick figure of the Mona Lisa. Do you now have "95%" of the Mona Lisa?

Christ, now I need a drink. And I still have 5 hours before I can indulge...

[wright1978]

I'll pull back from the despair abyss for the moment though i'm not sure believe much of Chris' statement as i guess i'm just a cynic and think it is damage limitation. As others have said the squadmate roster looks utterly bare(and unappealing to me) so putting my best optimism hat on that leaves the hope that there will be later joining squaddies. If i have to rescue her and take down her dad but then she can help Shep take down TIM and is part of end battle against reapers that could work.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Ieldra: You don't find a single living member of a race that's been extinct for 50000 years being on the squad even remotely implausible? To say nothing of demistifying the Protheans.

Ilos: a single Prothean VI survived by using the power from the other sleeping Protheans' cryochambers. There is precedent. Besides, I want them demystified.

[casedawgz]

CrutchCricket wrote...

A drowning voice in a sea of madness maybe. That's right, I'm upgrading the pond.

flemm: Seriously who gives a **** about outlines? Even ignoring the whole "it happened before therefore it MUST happen again" thing, a premise so faulty you'd think it was California, you know what else is an outline? A stick figure. Go ahead and draw a stick figure of the Mona Lisa. Do you now have "95%" of the Mona Lisa?

Christ, now I need a drink. And I still have 5 hours before I can indulge...

I think I love you.

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

I'm looking at a screenshot without crying. That's a step up at least. Wonder how long it'll be before I can play ME2? Don't think I'm up to it yet.

My current ME2 run is on hold as the only scenario i can think of currently is unloading all my ammo into Tali.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Ilos: a single Prothean VI survived by using the power from the other sleeping Protheans' cryochambers. There is precedent. Besides, I want them demystified.

VI: artificial construct, technically ageless as long as hardware is functional. Also the whole using power from the cryochambers= dead Protheans. The ones who didn't die went to the Citadel to hack the keepers then died there. So where's this new guy from all of a sudden?

Also why do you want them demystified?

*Edit-
casedawgs: Thanks,babe;) (as said by Simon Pegg in the Blood and Ice Cream Trilogy)

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 08 novembre 2011 - 05:26 .

[jtav]

wright1978 wrote...

jtav wrote...

I'm looking at a screenshot without crying. That's a step up at least. Wonder how long it'll be before I can play ME2? Don't think I'm up to it yet.

My current ME2 run is on hold as the only scenario i can think of currently is unloading all my ammo into Tali.

I'm thinking just the opposite. See, if this is all we get, the scenario is so terrible and at odds with what I want that I can't blame other squad mates for it. The writers are presenting Miranda this way by choice, not because of scarce resources. So I'd kill Miranda and romance Tali.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
flemm: Seriously who gives a **** about outlines? Even ignoring the whole "it happened before therefore it MUST happen again" thing, a premise so faulty you'd think it was California, you know what else is an outline? A stick figure. Go ahead and draw a stick figure of the Mona Lisa. Do you now have "95%" of the Mona Lisa?

Hey, the whole situation's frustrating, I understand.

But game development cycles are such that the basic story needs to be worked out early on, because everything else depends on that. Game was confirmed as playable all the way through in a rough form by last Christmas.

What that adds up to is that the info about Miranda's mission and re-introduction into the game is likely accurate, especially given that it's attached to an important plot point. It also matches up very nicely with the only hint about Miranda's status that we have had from the lead developer of the game.

Where the optimism lies, and I do think there is room for some, is not so much that the info is wrong, but that it is incomplete and only indicates how Miranda will be introduced into the game (and maybe recruited to join the squad).

Modifié par flemm, 08 novembre 2011 - 05:31 .

[Melra]

jtav wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

jtav wrote...

I'm looking at a screenshot without crying. That's a step up at least. Wonder how long it'll be before I can play ME2? Don't think I'm up to it yet.

My current ME2 run is on hold as the only scenario i can think of currently is unloading all my ammo into Tali.

I'm thinking just the opposite. See, if this is all we get, the scenario is so terrible and at odds with what I want that I can't blame other squad mates for it. The writers are presenting Miranda this way by choice, not because of scarce resources. So I'd kill Miranda and romance Tali.

Tali, I giggled. That's some desperation.

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Hey, the whole situation's frustrating, I understand.

But game development cycles are such that the basic story needs to be worked out early on, because everything else depends on that. Game was confirmed as playable all the way through in a rough form by last Christmas.

What that adds up to is that the info about Miranda's mission and re-introduction into the game is likely accurate, especially given that it's attached to an important plot point. It also matches up very nicely with the only hint about Miranda's status that we have had from the lead developer of the game.

Where the optimism lies, and I do think there is room for some, is not so much that the info is wrong, but that it is incomplete and only indicates how Miranda will be introduced into the game and join the squad.

I hear you. I even agree with your first point. Developing this story starts with a basic outline of how the plot will go. Characters get insterted aftewards (or in the later stages). Although playability isn't necessarily such a tough margin. Playability could literally mean walking from room to room, accomplishing the objectives (not as simple as I make it sound, certainly but it doesn't mean every dialog choice is already in place).

I don't think it is necessarily accurate though. Remember how I said it feels like a placeholder, [insert Miranda here]? You could make the case that she is slotted to enter the story at that point based on the outline (although even that is questionable as Legion was planned to come in earlier in ME2) but nothing restricts how she enters.

Which is what you said in the last point. I'm just taking it further. And yes it is frustrating. I mean here they are giving us all the deniability we want short of an outright "that stuff's all bullsh!t don't even worry about it lol" disowning and still the doomsaying dramatics continue.

[enayasoul]

casedawgz wrote...

I don't know, I just can't imagine for a way for it to be in the game and not be horribly contrived. Any way that you can outline a dead race continuing for 50,000 years after its population has reached the point of no return is probably not going to satisfy me, especially because Ilos has demonstrated that cryostasis can't be maintained for that long.

I'm reminded of that one Cerberus Daily news article about some pods in the atmosphere of some planet... It was too far to be reachable.  Something about a burial ground.  It would be actually interesting if some of the news reports made it into the actual game.  I find several of them quite interesting.   Especially the ones dealing with the mass relay's and such.

[naledgeborn]

jtav wrote...

I'm thinking just the opposite. See, if this is all we get, the scenario is so terrible and at odds with what I want that I can't blame other squad mates for it. The writers are presenting Miranda this way by choice, not because of scarce resources. So I'd kill Miranda and romance Tali.

*Spoilers*

To be fair some fan bases have it worse. Think about the VS and Liara choice. The bias is blatently obvious.

*Spoilers*

If the leak is true, then yea we got it bad. However some people got it twice as bad. Literally.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

jtav wrote...

I'm looking at a screenshot without crying. That's a step up at least. Wonder how long it'll be before I can play ME2? Don't think I'm up to it yet.

My current ME2 run is on hold as the only scenario i can think of currently is unloading all my ammo into Tali.

I'm thinking just the opposite. See, if this is all we get, the scenario is so terrible and at odds with what I want that I can't blame other squad mates for it. The writers are presenting Miranda this way by choice, not because of scarce resources. So I'd kill Miranda and romance Tali.

If this is all we'll get, I'll pretend that ME3 never happened, that is was never made, and retreat into fanfic.

But you know, I think that the writers don't want to kick Miranda's fans in the face. I've also read that interview by Mac Walters where he said writing for a game is different from writing a book because you need to give players choices instead of sticking to your own vision of a character, and that's where most would-be writers fail. So while I'm not exactly confident at this point, maybe we will have an opportunity to influence how Miranda perceives herself.

As for killing team members, the only one I want to kill at this point is Liara. The favoritism is so blatant - I thought it was impossible to push things even further after they character-assassinated a shy archaeologist and made her into the damned Shadow Broker (no matter that I like her new persona better, it *was* character assassination), but here we are.

 

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
 Remember how I said it feels like a placeholder, [insert Miranda here]?

I don't think it can be plausibly understood as a placeholder. Having Oriana drive Miranda's involvement may feel a little redundant and lazy, as others have said, but there is actually plenty of detail about the mission. Who is involved, what the plot relevance is, how it is teased in advance via email, what the lead-in to it is, even the location, which is very significant. Lead developer says she might be in trouble, leak tells us what exactly that means.

CrutchCricket wrote...

I mean here they are giving us all the deniability we want short of an outright "that stuff's all bullsh!t don't even worry about it lol" disowning and still the doomsaying dramatics continue.

They've blown a little smoke, but the upshot of it is that a lot of it is accurate, and players shouldn't read it if they don't want to be spoiled.

Anyway, it sounds like the mission is designed to resonate with Ashley being rescued on Horizon in the prior game, and Jack being held captive by Cerberus in her RM. Combined with Miranda confronting her father, it could be a pretty interesting mission overall, though maybe not very cool or awesome as far as what Miranda actually does.

Beyond that it's mostly a question of whether she can join you or not.

Modifié par flemm, 08 novembre 2011 - 09:14 .

[Melra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

jtav wrote...

I'm looking at a screenshot without crying. That's a step up at least. Wonder how long it'll be before I can play ME2? Don't think I'm up to it yet.

My current ME2 run is on hold as the only scenario i can think of currently is unloading all my ammo into Tali.

I'm thinking just the opposite. See, if this is all we get, the scenario is so terrible and at odds with what I want that I can't blame other squad mates for it. The writers are presenting Miranda this way by choice, not because of scarce resources. So I'd kill Miranda and romance Tali.

If this is all we'll get, I'll pretend that ME3 never happened, that is was never made, and retreat into fanfic.

But you know, I think that the writers don't want to kick Miranda's fans in the face. I've also read that interview by Mac Walters where he said writing for a game is different from writing a book because you need to give players choices instead of sticking to your own vision of a character, and that's where most would-be writers fail. So while I'm not exactly confident at this point, maybe we will have an opportunity to influence how Miranda perceives herself.

As for killing team members, the only one I want to kill at this point is Liara. The favoritism is so blatant - I thought it was impossible to push things even further after they character-assassinated a shy archaeologist and made her into the damned Shadow Broker (no matter that I like her new persona better, it *was* character assassination), but here we are.

 

I find this part extremely funny, coming from you. So first you were like that you knew who the Miri was as a character, better than the rest of us and now you're pretty much implying that ''thank god there's a chance that they might write Miri in the way I want, instead of the way they would preferably write it if it was for themselves''.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Which is what you said in the last point. I'm just taking it further. And yes it is frustrating. I mean here they are giving us all the deniability we want short of an outright "that stuff's all bullsh!t don't even worry about it lol" disowning and still the doomsaying dramatics continue.

You understand this wrong. They want us to believe it's all bull****. Whether it actually *is* bull****, that's a very different matter. Maybe some of us weren't exactly rational the last 36 hours, but what would I call completely disregarding information that experience says should be mostly accurate? Well, yeah. In denial. 

I'll give you that things are incomplete and lack any detail. The reuniting scene, for instance, might involve Miranda making a good showing of herself. That would, of course, change how she's perceived dramatically and alleviate a lot of concerns. But you can reasonably depend on the scene actually being in the game. To say anything else without evidence is akin to believing in invisible pink unicorns.

[jtav]

If they wanted to do it "right" here's what I wish they'd do.

Miranda escapes the cell on her own and the Pariah gets loose. Miranda steals a weapon and attempts to get the hell out of there, firing shots as she goes. The Pariah almost has her when you show up which provides a brief distraction. Miranda says "You're late." Miranda joins the squad and boss fight with Pariah ensues.

[Ieldra]

@Melrache:
The difference is, I am not writing for a game. I'm in this for my own enjoyment. Besides, I don't remember how often I said that I can't look into Miranda's head. The only point where I stand by my statement that I know better is the "betrayal" line. The only thing that would convince me here is a reasonably tangible argument put forward by her writers, for her writers are the only people who actually *can* look into her head.

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
I don't think it can be plausibly understood as a placeholder. Having Oriana drive Miranda's involvement may feel a little redundant and lazy, as others have said, but there is actually plenty of detail about the mission. Who is involved, what the plot relevance is, how it is teased in advance via email, what the lead-in to it is, even the location, which is very significant. Lead developer says she might be in trouble, leak tells us what exactly that means.

Are we reading the same thing? I didn't find it overly detailed at all. It still seems like the bare essentials of Miranda's arc with only a little justification given as to how they tie together. It's possible elements of this may make it in the final version (expanded of course) but not necessarily so. And where are you getting the location from? If you give me source material, please only give the line, I'm still trying to keep everything else at a distance.

Anyway, it sounds like the mission is designed to resonate with Ashley being rescued on Horizon in the prior game, and Jack being held captive by Cerberus in her RM. Combined with Miranda confronting her father, it could be a pretty interesting mission overall, though maybe not very cool or awesome as far as what Miranda actually does.

I can see where that impression might come from. However it's still premature to assume Miranda will not get cool scenes, even if the setup remains exactly as is. The writers could decide the cell idea is too lame (or doesn't flow right with gameplay or something) and change it to match something like Garrus' mission- Miranda fighting a bunch of goons singlehandedly until you show up and help her push onwards.

That's another thing actually. Changes to Miranda's part in the story (good or bad) may come about not just from rewrites of her arc but also because other areas are impacted (needs more/less action, drama or tension, too many similarities to something else they've done etc.). Really I think we all need to accept that in this case we don't know as much as we think we know.

[Ieldra]

May I propose that we talk about the spoilers only in the most general terms from now on? Should be enough to let us understand each other without totally spoiling anyone who might come in. And if anyone wants to know what the hell we're talking about, we can send the info in a PM.

[enayasoul]

Ieldra2 wrote...

May I propose that we talk about the spoilers only in the most general terms from now on? Should be enough to let us understand each other without totally spoiling anyone who might come in. And if anyone wants to know what the hell we're talking about, we can send the info in a PM.

That I agree with.  Leave the more detailed info to PM's.