82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...
I'm hoping this will tie into the epilogues. If you reassure her of her previous outlook we get more of a TIW epilogue ending whereas paragons can convince her the other way. I'm worried there's going to be one happy ending for her with no player input.

If we get epilogues at all (which I think we'll have but it's not confirmed) I think there will be different good epilogues for Miranda. How many, I have no idea, but they seem to be serious in their intention to cover wildly diverging outcomes. It would make little sense to stop here. If any specific version we envision will be among them, that's another question.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 novembre 2011 - 04:05 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

If we get epilogues at all (which I think we'll have but it's not confirmed) I think there will be different good epilogues for Miranda.

ME games have not had epilogues in the past, so I think it's fairly probable this one won't either. That's especially true if post-Reaper DLC is planned, which has been referenced by devs along the way.

So, in that scenario, any hints at future plans would likely happen in dialogue prior to the end of the game.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Ieldra2 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
I'm hoping this will tie into the epilogues. If you reassure her of her previous outlook we get more of a TIW epilogue ending whereas paragons can convince her the other way. I'm worried there's going to be one happy ending for her with no player input.

If we get epilogues at all (which I think we'll have but it's not confirmed) I think there will be different good epilogues for Miranda. How many, I have no idea, but they seem to be serious in their intention to cover wildly diverging outcomes. It would make little sense to stop here. If any specific version we envision will be among them, that's another question.

The more you post this pic the more I :wub::wub:. Keep it up. This is one of my favorites. 

[JeffZero]

I often wonder what Casey Hudson was intending to convey when he tweeted a particular tweet of his a couple of months back. He was asking fans to submit their ideas for story DLC and held the following disclaimer:

"Remember that in ME3 especially, story DLC could take place in settings other than post-game."

Not only does such a disclaimer in no way contradict things we've already seen in ME1 (both DLCs) and ME2 (everything except Lair of the Shadow Broker and Arrival), it also sets a bit of a tone. To me, that tone is, "our ending is final, so focus on expanding the storyline of the main game itself."

Yet that is at odds with what the devs have said in the past. Very intriguing.

[jtav]

ME1 and ME2 were also the incomplete story. It made no sense to have epilogues because the next game was always coming. It's similar to BG. We didn't get epilogues until the third installment.

[JeffZero]

jtav wrote...

ME1 and ME2 were also the incomplete story. It made no sense to have epilogues because the next game was always coming. It's similar to BG. We didn't get epilogues until the third installment.

Indeed!

[flemm]

Well, there's the option of MP DLC, and more missions during the main plot of the game, of course. But it seems likely that you will have the option to log back into the game, to do stuff you left hanging, including MP, and so on. That doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility of an epilogue, but I think it reduces the likelihood.

Even DLC like Overlord, which can be done before the SM, and makes more sense that way, can also be done by the player after the main story is finished.

Modifié par flemm, 12 novembre 2011 - 04:32 .

[wright1978]

I don't see how post game DLC content would work honestly.

[JeffZero]

flemm wrote...

Well, there's the option of MP DLC, and more missions during the main plot of the game, of course. But it seems likely that you will have the option to log back into the game, to do stuff you left hanging, including MP, and so on. That doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility of an epilogue, but I think it reduces the likelihood.

Yeah, fair enough.

I really do hope for the devs going back on that "postgame is possible" stuff this time around though, and a tweet like that from Casey gets my ears perked up. Not that I don't trust BioWare to do it well either way, but I prefer a strong sense of finality.

[Ieldra]

As for post-game DLC plus epilogues - DAO has exactly that. So there is precedent. I think having the big endgame explosion and then nothing but the credits would be disappointing. I think we might even get cinematic epilogue sequences, though that would cost resources - so many places and characters to cover.

As for what post-main plot DLC could deal with: everything but the Reapers of course. I guess there would still be Cerberus pockets of resistance to fight, or a renewal of interspecies conflict after the big threat it gone. Many possibilities, actually.

@101:
Everyone like this one. I only don't post it that often so that we don't get tired of it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 novembre 2011 - 04:47 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
As for what post-main plot DLC could deal with: everything but the Reapers of course. I guess there would still be Cerberus pockets of resistance to fight, or a renewal of interspecies conflict after the big threat it gone. Many possibilities, actually.

There are. The presence of an epilogue really depends, I guess, on whether the devs think the story is adequately tied up prior to the big finale of the game, thus allowing the main story to end with a bang, though the player can go back in and do leftover stuff afterwards, assuming Shepard survives. My feeling is that the various plot threads are being wrapped up along the way so that an epilogue will not be necessary.

Really, as far as I can tell, Miranda is about the only character who still appears to be in limbo, essentially, at the end of her mission in those leaks. And that may only be because a conversation about "the future" is missing. 

Quite a few of the characters basically even say, "this is where I belong, etc."

Modifié par flemm, 12 novembre 2011 - 04:58 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Ieldra2 wrote...



@101:
Everyone like this one. I only don't post it that often so that we don't get tired of it.

I love that pic. It's one of the Perfect examples of Miri's Soft and Loving side:wub:. And a Perfect example of her Beauty:wub:.

[jtav]

So, in honor of the leaks, I'm rolling an all new Paragon!Shep, with a little Renegade for seasoning. Colonist/Sole Survivor, with Kaidan surviving. His parents died, his unit died, his girlfriend died. When he gets to the "promise" scene I'm mentally adding a "you first" option.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As for what post-main plot DLC could deal with: everything but the Reapers of course. I guess there would still be Cerberus pockets of resistance to fight, or a renewal of interspecies conflict after the big threat it gone. Many possibilities, actually.

There are. The presence of an epilogue really depends, I guess, on whether the devs think the story is adequately tied up prior to the big finale of the game, thus allowing the main story to end with a bang, though the player can go back in and do leftover stuff afterwards, assuming Shepard survives. My feeling is that the various plot threads are being wrapped up along the way so that an epilogue will not be necessary.

Really, as far as I can tell, Miranda is about the only character who still appears to be in limbo, essentially, at the end of her mission in those leaks. And that may only be because a conversation about "the future" is missing. 

Quite a few of the characters basically even say, "this is where I belong, etc."

Yes, but that's before the end of the big conflict. Epilogues usually give a shape to the post-conflict world that was previously only hinted at. For romances it's even more important since Shepard can die. In DAO you can  talk with certain companions about your/their intentions for the future, but at that point that's all they are - intentions. Only the epilogue tells us that it will actually happen. 

They might  try to end the story without one, but IMO it would leave things hanging, no matter what characters say before the end of the conflict.

[Errol Dnamyx]

I'd be more interested in pre game DLC. What has the VS been doing between ME2 and ME3? Scouting around in Batarian space maybe? Where did Miranda go, after Shepard has been grounded?
It doesn't have to focus on Shepard in my opinion. (like Lelianas Song for example)

Post game DLC doesn't sound too interesting to me.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes, but that's before the end of the big conflict. Epilogues usually give a shape to the post-conflict world that was previously only hinted at. For romances it's even more important since Shepard can die. In DAO you can  talk with certain companions about your/their intentions for the future, but at that point that's all they are - intentions. Only the epilogue tells us that it will actually happen. 

They might  try to end the story without one, but IMO it would leave things hanging, no matter what characters say before the end of the conflict.

Well, I'm not talking about my preferred option at this point, but rather about how it might work. It's largely a game design issue. Basically, depending on the approach you are taking, you might not want to establish how the galaxy actually looks in the future. You might want players to feel ready to go back into the galaxy and explore stuff they missed. That's the approach the ME team has taken in the past, and I think the presence of MP would tend to accentuate this. Just a guess, though, obviously. 

Basically, there's a limit to how much you want to tell players, "It's over now."

Modifié par flemm, 12 novembre 2011 - 05:21 .

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

Quite a few of the characters basically even say, "this is where I belong, etc."

I'm not spoiled on anyone but Miranda so i'm not sure i get what you mean. Are characters utterly railroaded down pre-defined paths?

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...

flemm wrote...

Quite a few of the characters basically even say, "this is where I belong, etc."

I'm not spoiled on anyone but Miranda so i'm not sure i get what you mean. Are characters utterly railroaded down pre-defined paths?

No idea, but some would be. You shape *your* character in the games, after all, not the others. I guess that the LIs might get some options, but most characters, if alive, will end up in specific places and roles. Miranda is actually unique in that she hasn't got an obvious path into the future. Or can you imagine Tali living anywhere but on Rannoch, if it's reclaimed, regardless of what her role in the future is? Or take Ashley - they might give her different options because she's an LI, but you'd expect her to start a family at some point. So for non-LI characters, yes, I expect them to end up pretty much in the same places, possibly with one different place as an option in case one was destroyed in the war. But that would not be determined by player input.

[Ieldra]

This has come up in the spoiler group, and because it isn't a spoiler, I'm taking it to the thread.

There should be some final romance scene with Miranda in ME3. What do you think it should be like?

[jtav]

Okay, maybe this is vague enough.

You're notified of a shuttle requesting to dock. Miranda. Shepard is shocked, but leads her to his quarters. Miranda shouldn't be here. She's still suffering from the aftereffects of her mission. Miranda tells him to stop treating her like glass. She brought Shep back to fight the Reapers and won't let him do it alone. Similar to ME2, she starts talking about low odds of survival. Shepard starts to protest, but she stops him. No promises this time. "I love you, and I want you to know every minute of this was worth it, win or lose." They kiss. She shoves him onto the bed. Shepard smiles. "And here I thought you didn't settle Miss Lawson. "I never do, Commander." Fade to black.

Modifié par jtav, 12 novembre 2011 - 07:44 .

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

flemm wrote...

Quite a few of the characters basically even say, "this is where I belong, etc."

I'm not spoiled on anyone but Miranda so i'm not sure i get what you mean. Are characters utterly railroaded down pre-defined paths?

No idea, but some would be. You shape *your* character in the games, after all, not the others. I guess that the LIs might get some options, but most characters, if alive, will end up in specific places and roles. Miranda is actually unique in that she hasn't got an obvious path into the future. Or can you imagine Tali living anywhere but on Rannoch, if it's reclaimed, regardless of what her role in the future is? Or take Ashley - they might give her different options because she's an LI, but you'd expect her to start a family at some point. So for non-LI characters, yes, I expect them to end up pretty much in the same places, possibly with one different place as an option in case one was destroyed in the war. But that would not be determined by player input.

Oh i get that we shape our own character. However say for example Jack. In ME2 renegaded she executes her fellow inmate while in the paragon path she doesn't . Now to me that is Shep having an impact and those 2 paths shouldn't lead to the same result at the very least imo. LI are this multiplied because as it is both the way the LI has developed and the way Shep has developed.

[flemm]

wright1978 wrote...
Oh i get that we shape our own character. However say for example Jack. In ME2 renegaded she executes her fellow inmate while in the paragon path she doesn't . Now to me that is Shep having an impact and those 2 paths shouldn't lead to the same result at the very least imo. LI are this multiplied because as it is both the way the LI has developed and the way Shep has developed.

There may be different outcomes, probably there will be at least a few, that isn't really what I meant. What I was referring to was that, from the leak, it seems that each outcome is intended to end the story where the one-mission cameo appearances are concerned. Either by death (obviously), or by dialog indicating that the character has found his or her purpose, for example. Or a home, or similar things.

It seems plausible that each of these characters will be available for a conversation prior to the final battle if the character survives the mission in which s/he appears (best-case).

It seems likely that Miranda's appearance will be structured more or less like this:

1) A couple of long-distance conversations early in the game.
2) The mission, very late in the game.
3) Some sort of contact prior to the final battle. 

Difference is that Miranda's mission basically leaves her in limbo, so I suppose what her future plans are would have to either remain really vague or be dealt with in dialog.

Modifié par flemm, 12 novembre 2011 - 08:09 .

[alperez]

Ieldra2 wrote...

What I greatly resent - as flemm does - is the general sidelining of the ME2-exclusive characters combined with the Tali/Garrus/Liara favoritism. Miranda might actually end off luckier than most in comparison, but it's still jarring. Particulary with Garrus, who never showed any main story significance whatsoever and always was the guy who tagged along. I guess that makes him easy to integrate into the team since he has no other obligations, unlike Tali. 

I thought i'd comment on the above since it to me really does show the heart of the matter in terms of me3.

The fact that they seem able to integrate Tali and Garrus's role into the story and that it appears they play a large one shows that integration of squadmates irrespective of me2's ending was completely achievable. When you then add in that it appears at this stage that none of the me2 exclusive characters seem to be integrated this way it really does come across as a slap in the face to all people who really enjoyed those characters in me2 and one which in my mind irrespective of how good, bad or indifferent me3 actually turns out to be will always be a missed opportunity and deny it from being the epic it should have been.

When you see how hard it is for Miranda to be killed in me2 especially compared to tali and garrus, when you find that in me3 cerberus are a major antagonist, when you know you'll be setting up an epic confrontation not just with TIm but with certain other cerberus operatives, the fact that you diminish a character like Miranda's screentime in favour of lesser plot essential characters really is a crime imo.

Any writer worth their salt when plotting out the arc for me3 knowing they were going to use cerberus and tim in such a major way would or should have set the stage up for Miranda to be plot essential, the fact that it appears they did not do so is not just bad writing but a bad use of what could have been some incredible plot points.

I understand Ieldra2's and some other people's assertion that Miranda's character arc works well having her play an independant role in some fashion and i completely agree with it, but this imo wouldn't or shouldn't interfere with a timely reunion leading to a squadmate role also and could have been handled just as well by incorporating both.

Me2 is made almost pointless by the events in arrival as it is, to then reduce all the me2 speciific cast in the way it appears to be really does make it nothing more than a filler, while i can understand doing this with certain characters the fact that Miranda appears to be one of them just completely boggles the mind.

I mean seriously think about it, we play me2, we do certain actions so people survive or don't the SM and we find that irrespective of these actions each characters role is reduced, so we're left with the story in me2 itself which is then reduced in importance by the events of arrival. We're introduced to the inner workings of cerberus and given a character who has intimate knowledge of more of this than anyone we've met thus far and rather than expand on even that little titbit (thereby attaching some level of importance to me2 itself) we then find that character's role in me3 is reduced and other lesser important characters roles are the same or expanded.

I'm sorry but there are people on these forums who could have plotted things out way better than that and would have done so free of charge.

[Ieldra]

alperez wrote...
When you see how hard it is for Miranda to be killed in me2 especially compared to tali and garrus, when you find that in me3 cerberus are a major antagonist, when you know you'll be setting up an epic confrontation not just with TIm but with certain other cerberus operatives, the fact that you diminish a character like Miranda's screentime in favour of lesser plot essential characters really is a crime imo.

Any writer worth their salt when plotting out the arc for me3 knowing they were going to use cerberus and tim in such a major way would or should have set the stage up for Miranda to be plot essential, the fact that it appears they did not do so is not just bad writing but a bad use of what could have been some incredible plot points.

I concur. It's actually my biggest worry that Miranda's story arc will come across as purely personal, having almost nothing to do with the big picture, her inside knowledge of the secondary enemy having gone completely unused by any writer. I cannot say if this will be the case, but I will say that there is significant danger of that. 

I mean seriously think about it, we play me2, we do certain actions so people survive or don't the SM and we find that irrespective of these actions each characters role is reduced, so we're left with the story in me2 itself which is then reduced in importance by the events of arrival. We're introduced to the inner workings of cerberus and given a character who has intimate knowledge of more of this than anyone we've met thus far and rather than expand on even that little titbit (thereby attaching some level of importance to me2 itself) we then find that character's role in me3 is reduced and other lesser important characters roles are the same or expanded.

I'm sorry but there are people on these forums who could have plotted things out way better than that and would have done so free of charge.

While very true, I think that this problem is not a result of story considerations. I think the writers are aware of the wasted potential. The problems here are twofold:
(1) the writers' vision being incompatible with the fans' perception of a character. Game writers must accomodate different interpretations, but they'll only go so far. I'm getting the vibe that this might be a problem with Miranda.
(2) The problem of "too many humans on the team". If they aim for a team of 6-8, more than two humans are just too many. Should such a concern overrule story considerations? Not in my opinion, of course, Sadly, my opinion doesn't count for much.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 novembre 2011 - 11:43 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
(2) The problem of "too many humans on the team". If they aim for a team of 6-8, more than two humans are just too many. Should such a concern overrule story considerations? Not in my opinion, of course, Sadly, my opinion doesn't count for much.

Re: this point, let's keep in mind that Miranda not joining the squad may be dictated by the type of consideration you're referring to here, but not screen time. At least not to the extent that not being on the squad means one mission and one mission only.

It would not be difficult to include more than one mission for Miranda without her actually joining the squad. Exploiting her connection to Cerberus likewise does not depend on squad presence at all. 

Modifié par flemm, 12 novembre 2011 - 11:54 .