82210 réponses à ce sujet

[LiquidGrape]

Actually, no, nothing has been established. At least not on a meaningful level.
What you bring up is the meta-perspective (e.g Miranda can only be romanced by a male Shepard so far, therefore Miranda can only be interested in male Shepard), but that doesn't add up to a very convincing argument, seeing as it can only operate on a wholly superficial level external to the characterisation. It is an assumption derived from a technicality, superimposed onto the characters.

This is why I will never understand the alleged "retcon" argument. If certain previous characters are elaborated upon, nothing is actually contradicted.
- There is nothing to contradict.

Anyway, I know I just addressed it myself, but could we just skip over this particular topic? It seldom leads to constructive discourse.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 24 juin 2011 - 03:16 .

[jtav]

I'm with Uncanny. An interest in men has been established. Miranda cannot be a lesbian. But FemShep can't express interest at all. Considering she has to be talked into any romance, it's not contradicting anything for her to accept Shepard's advances.

[MisterJB]

Jebel Krong wrote...
er, it has been established that miranda is straight by virtue of being romanceable by male shepards and previous relationship with jacob. there were no allusions to any other interest at any point.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. It has been extablished that Miranda can be emotionally and sexually attracted to men. That doesn't exclude the possibility of her being bisexual.

[Ieldra]

The Uncanny wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I'd rather people play protagonists of different genders as a solution to the problem.

You're kind of missing the point.

Am I? I can't romance Miranda with a femShep, so I'm going to romance her with a maleShep. Actually, my preferred protagonist's gender in games is usually female, but Miranda made me play more maleSheps and now my favorite Shepard is male. What's the point I'm missing? Representation of same sex romances for political correctness? Well, introduce a new character and make her available for same-sex romance only, and I'll have no problem not being able to romance her with a male protagonist. Make a new m/m romance character and I won't romance him at all, I'm fine with that too, as long as there are other characters.

But no retcons, and no ridiculous distributions of sexual orientations like "everyone is bi".
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2011 - 03:22 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Am I? I can't romance Miranda with a femShep, so I'm going to romance her with a maleShep. Actually, my preferred protagonist's gender in games is usually female, but Miranda made me play a femShep and now my favorite Shepard is male? What's the point I'm missing?

The point is that people like to indentify themselves with their characters when they play RPGs. I'm male so, I've never been able to connect with any Femshep I created.
If I had to create a FemShep for the sole purpose of romancing Miranda, you bet I would be upset and request that she be made available for both sexes in ME3.
Maybe some people don't really care about the gender of the Shepard they play with, others do.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 juin 2011 - 03:22 .

[Nashiktal]

Actually Miranda is in a perfect place for sexuality conflict due to her upbringing and maternal status. However that is up to Bioware to decide at this point.

Without full biography of the life of our squadmates, I doubt we can ever establish someone's gender.

I mean shep has only known most of these characters for a few months, and in real time we the player have only known them for a a few lines throughout the game. As such I will rule nothing out.

[Jebel Krong]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Actually, no, nothing has been established. At least not on a meaningful level.
What you bring up is the meta-perspective (e.g Miranda can only be romanced by a male Shepard so far, therefore Miranda can only be interested in male Shepard), but that doesn't add up to a very convincing argument, seeing as it can only operate on a wholly superficial level external to the characterisation. It is an assumption derived from a technicality, superimposed onto the characters.

This is why I will never understand the alleged "retcon" argument. If certain previous characters are elaborated upon, nothing is actually contradicted.
- There is nothing to contradict.

it is the only logical argument you can make, given the evidence at hand - you can't base a viewpoint on lack of a denial on Miranda's part as that would never have been needed given you can only pursue a straight romance. the straight romance is proof, your personal inference is not.

it is a retcon if established characters go against previously established traits, whichever way you rationalise it otherwise: double negatives do not make a positive.

[MisterJB]

Jebel Krong wrote...
- you can't base a viewpoint on lack of a denial on Miranda's part as that would never have been needed given you can only pursue a straight romance. the straight romance is proof, your personal inference is not.

If Shepard does not choose certain lines of dialogue, Miranda will not start a relationship with him at all. Does that make Miranda asexual?
Shepard has to take the initiative in order for Miranda to reciprocate, FemShep never had a chance to do it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 juin 2011 - 03:28 .

[Jebel Krong]

MisterJB wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
er, it has been established that miranda is straight by virtue of being romanceable by male shepards and previous relationship with jacob. there were no allusions to any other interest at any point.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence. It has been extablished that Miranda can be emotionally and sexually attracted to men. That doesn't exclude the possibility of her being bisexual.

it specifically doesn't include it, either. consistent behaviour is certainly evidence enough for any rational person.

again: two negatives don't make a positive, whichever way you want to spin it.

[Nashiktal]

Jebel Krong wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Actually, no, nothing has been established. At least not on a meaningful level.
What you bring up is the meta-perspective (e.g Miranda can only be romanced by a male Shepard so far, therefore Miranda can only be interested in male Shepard), but that doesn't add up to a very convincing argument, seeing as it can only operate on a wholly superficial level external to the characterisation. It is an assumption derived from a technicality, superimposed onto the characters.

This is why I will never understand the alleged "retcon" argument. If certain previous characters are elaborated upon, nothing is actually contradicted.
- There is nothing to contradict.

it is the only logical argument you can make, given the evidence at hand - you can't base a viewpoint on lack of a denial on Miranda's part as that would never have been needed given you can only pursue a straight romance. the straight romance is proof, your personal inference is not.

it is a retcon if established characters go against previously established traits, whichever way you rationalise it otherwise: double negatives do not make a positive.

Actualy this is false. In the case of Miranda, it is always shep who initiates the romance. Femshep players are incapable of starting the romance, as such Miranda does not get a chance to reject said romance.

In this case it is a meta perspective. Using the same logic, I could say that femshep is straight because she won't romance Miranda or Tali.

[Melra]

MisterJB wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
- you can't base a viewpoint on lack of a denial on Miranda's part as that would never have been needed given you can only pursue a straight romance. the straight romance is proof, your personal inference is not.

If Shepard does not choose certain lines of dialogue, Miranda will not start a relationship with him at all. Does that make Miranda asexual?
Shepard has to take the initiative in order for Miranda to reciprocate, FemShep never had a chance to do it.

I agree with this. Also I can't personally see any reason why people would put so much effort into not having s/s romance with Miri in the game. You're not forced to take part in it, if you don't wish. If you think it's wrong to have s/s, then you shouldn't say anything. <_<

[MisterJB]

Jebel Krong wrote...
it specifically doesn't include it, either. consistent behaviour is certainly evidence enough for any rational person.

again: two negatives don't make a positive, whichever way you want to spin it.

My Shepard didn't have anyone in ME1, he blatantly refused advances from both Liara and Ashley. By your logic, that makes him homosexual, rigth?

[Jebel Krong]

MisterJB wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
- you can't base a viewpoint on lack of a denial on Miranda's part as that would never have been needed given you can only pursue a straight romance. the straight romance is proof, your personal inference is not.

If Shepard does not choose certain lines of dialogue, Miranda will not start a relationship with him at all. Does that make Miranda asexual?
Shepard has to take the initiative in order for Miranda to reciprocate, FemShep never had a chance to do it.

because (until, supposedly, ME3) femshep can't be gay, either (and no, Liara does not technically count). seriously that's how you justify an argument: unless someone flat out denies it, anything is possible? <_<

[Jebel Krong]

MisterJB wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
it specifically doesn't include it, either. consistent behaviour is certainly evidence enough for any rational person.

again: two negatives don't make a positive, whichever way you want to spin it.

My Shepard didn't have anyone in ME1, he blatantly refused advances from both Liara and Ashley. By your logic, that makes him homosexual, rigth?

no, that just means at the time no preference has been established - you need actual evidence for that: like consistent established behavioural choices - for example - liek Miranda has established, same with Garrus etc. not desperate opinion. Hell jack is the only one to have made any allusion to bisexual behaviour, at any time, so it's not like the topic never came up in any game - when it suits the character, sexual behaviour has been established.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 24 juin 2011 - 03:37 .

[Ieldra]

You're missing the point, Nashiktal: Miranda is unavailable for a romance with a femShep, and that tends to establish her as straight in players' minds unless you make an active effort to deny it. Sexual orientation is a part of a character's identity, and once thus established, you can't just patch it without resulting in a cognitive dissonance. It's the player's perspective, not the in-world perspective, that matters here.

[Melra]

Jebel Krong wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
-
you can't base a viewpoint on lack of a denial on Miranda's part as
that would never have been needed given you can only pursue a straight
romance. the straight romance is proof, your personal inference is not.

If
Shepard does not choose certain lines of dialogue, Miranda will not
start a relationship with him at all. Does that make Miranda asexual?
Shepard has to take the initiative in order for Miranda to reciprocate, FemShep never had a chance to do it.

because
(until, supposedly, ME3) femshep can't be gay, either (and no, Liara
does not technically count). seriously that's how you justify an
argument: unless someone flat out denies it, anything is possible?

And the opposite, that you're saying, is better because? Just because someone give an definite positive answer it's not possible?

Modifié par Melrache, 24 juin 2011 - 03:37 .

[The Elder King]

I don't care if they made Miranda bi in ME3. Though I think that the s/s romances will be the new companions (Vega and a female new companion). I'd have a concern only if they'll make all the previous LI bi. (especially because in this case I don't see any reason to put new companions in ME3, since we have too much of them).

I'm more concerned about Miranda's role in ME3 than her sexuality.

Modifié par hhh89, 24 juin 2011 - 03:37 .

[LiquidGrape]

Jebel Krong wrote...

it is the only logical argument you can make, given the evidence at hand - you can't base a viewpoint on lack of a denial on Miranda's part as that would never have been needed given you can only pursue a straight romance. the straight romance is proof, your personal inference is not.

Of course I can base my viewpoint on a lack of denial, seeing as I am not arguing for a fact but rather advocating a potential.
There is an inherent ambiguity to anyone's sexuality for as long as no explicit claim is made to account for it. And considering Miranda has yet to express any such claim, nothing has explicitly removed the potential of that ambiguity.

it is a retcon if established characters go against previously established traits, whichever way you rationalise it otherwise: double negatives do not make a positive.

But that's the point. She wouldn't go against any previously established traits. She would simply be allowed to express additional traits. That doesn't demand any so-called "retcon".

Jebel Krong wrote...

because (until, supposedly, ME3) femshep can't be gay, either (and no, Liara does not technically count).
seriously that's how you justify an argument: unless someone flat out denies it, anything is possible? <_<

Kelly.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 24 juin 2011 - 03:38 .

[Ieldra]

hhh89 wrote...
I'm more concerned about Miranda's role in ME3 than her sexuality.

Yes, me too. I could live with bi Miranda more easily than with her having a small role. But nonetheless I do have an opinion about retconning her sexual orientation.

[MisterJB]

Jebel Krong wrote...
because (until, supposedly, ME3) femshep can't be gay, either (and no, Liara does not technically count).

I dunno know. That looks like a woman to me.
Also, Kelly Chambers.

[vorianxavier]

Jebel Krong wrote...

no, that just means at the time no preference has been established - you need actual evidence for that: like consistent established behavioural choices - for example - liek Miranda has established, same with Garrus etc. not desperate opinion. Hell jack is the only one to have made any allusion to bisexual behaviour, at any time, so it's not like the topic never came up in any game - when it suits the character, sexual behaviour has been established.

So every woman you've ever met who didn't tell you otherwise is automatically straight? People don't always divulge all the details of their sexual and romantic past and preferences, real or fictional.

[upsettingshorts]

Liara *does* technically count. For FemShep, which is who matters for the purposes of this discussion. Liara is female and has human female secondary sex characteristics. It's absurd to think the "Liara doesn't count" argument is anything more substantial than a flimsy, clumsy house of cards.   It stands up to approximately 10 seconds of scrutiny.

On the other hand, FemShep doesn't count for Liara - because Asari don't work that way.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 juin 2011 - 03:45 .

[jtav]

Ieldra, do you remember that discussion we had with jilly and Sia about how some of Miranda's lines were cringeworthy when said to MaleShep but not FemShep? That's one reason I'm advocating for this. I think I'd be more comfortable playing the f/f version because the dynamics are somewhat different.

[MisterJB]

Jebel Krong wrote...
no, that just means at the time no preference has been established - you need actual evidence for that: like consistent established behavioural choices - for example - liek Miranda has established, same with Garrus etc. not desperate opinion.

If FemShep used the same lines ManShep does and Miranda reacted differently to them, then it would have been extablished that Miranda is heterosexual.
Since that is not the case, there's absolutely nothing that indicates Miranda would refuse a relationship with FemShep had she approached the issue.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Sexual orientation is a part of a character's identity,

How so? Excluding Miranda starting to say that FemShep is her first woman, how would Miranda's possible bisexuality conflict with any of her already extablished character traits?

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 juin 2011 - 04:12 .