82210 réponses à ce sujet

[alperez]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I concur. It's actually my biggest worry that Miranda's story arc will come across as purely personal, having almost nothing to do with the big picture, her inside knowledge of the secondary enemy having gone completely unused by any writer. I cannot say if this will be the case, but I will say that there is significant danger of that. 

Which begs the question do the writers actually understand the characters they've created?

But apart from that to set up such a clear plot hook that not only ties into a major plot point of the next game your writing but would also add a lot of weight to the importance of me2 itself and then ignore it in such a fashion isn't just bad writing its criminally bad writing.

While very true, I think that this problem is not a result of story considerations. I think the writers are aware of the wasted potential. The problems here are twofold:
(1) the writers' vision being incompatible with the fans' perception of a character. Game writers must accomodate different interpretations, but they'll only go so far. I'm getting the vibe that this might be a problem with Miranda.
(2) The problem of "too many humans on the team". If they aim for a team of 6-8, more than two humans are just too many. Should such a concern overrule story considerations? Not in my opinion, of course, Sadly, my opinion doesn't count. 

I'm not sure if they really are, simply because logically, storylinewise and as a simple understanding of how plot hooks and foreboding would or should work they've by the looks of things completely ignored a lot of it and went a different route for no apparent storyline reasoning.

(1) we face the same problem with any character though, i mean you've read the spoilers, do they actually seem to suggest that they worry or even care how we the fans perceive characters or do they simply use the characters in exactly the manner they wish.

Don't answer that here though perhaps that would be a better discussion on the spoiler group.

(2) again while i agree with the basics of more than 2 humans perhaps being too many, imo the storyline actually should come first and the rest be damned.

Again looking at the spoilers without discussing them in detail here doesn't it seem as if that's what in essence they've done, gone the route they wished irrespective of character considerations or fan's considerations.

[Ohei]

Anyone read the extended leak 4chan extracted? Don't want any spoilers, but if someone did, I just want to know if they are more pleased with Miranda's role or not.

[alperez]

flemm wrote...

It would not be difficult to include more than one mission for Miranda without her actually joining the squad. Exploiting her connection to Cerberus likewise does not depend on squad presence at all. 

That's almost exactly the point i was trying to make lol.

We have a character uniquely set up in a position where it makes complete storyline sense for her to play a large role in me3, now personally i would if it had been me doing so done everything in my power to ensure that the role played is as large as any of the other roles played by other characters in the game, simply because of how your setting the game up itself.

We have cerberus as major antagonists, hell almost if not bigger than the main antogonists themselves, we have Tim set up for what will no doubt be a major confrontation and an epic moment in the game, surely it's only common sense to use the character you've previously set up to also play a major role in this confrontation and this storyline also?

Now the easiest way would be off course to make Miranda a temp followed by a permanent squadmate but there is also many other ways that you could achieve this level of importance if that wasn't the route you wanted to go.

Considering this is the last act in a trilogy, surely if your ever going to push the boat out now is the time, to me though the only logical reason i can come up with why they wouldn't is they're afraid to make any me2 specific characters role too large and important because it may annoy fans of other me2 specific characters.

Even this though isn't a proper excuse imo because unlike other me2 specific characters Miranda actually not just makes storyline sense to fill a larger role but imo its almost essential that she does so.

[jtav]

Miranda's role with Cerberus being limited to what we already know would be hugely disappointing, no doubt. But we know the files are massively incomplete, so I'm willing to wait and see. We also have at least one huge question mark that could pay off big dividends – or not. Again, what I'm seeing in terms of characterization is encouraging. I don't know why Tali and Garrus made the cut and Miranda didn't, though I have my theories. I do know that I'm not a particular fan of them, but the leaks show them to be well written, perhaps more so than in any installment. Yes, I would like to see Miranda have a larger role than she appears to, but I don't see the point in getting angry about it. The truth is, there was always going to be some kind of favoritism. At the moment, I'm choosing to see it as more room for me to maneuver as a writer. What we do have looks quite good, and I'm grateful for that.

[alperez]

jtav

Not sure if your post was directed at me in particular (if it wasn't then disregard what i'm about to say).

I'm not actually angry regarding Miranda's role in terms of characterisation (i save my anger for the VS's one instead), i am angry though at the screentime, but even more i'm dissappointed not just at the opportunity that seems to have been missed but for how easy it was not to.

It doesn't take too much work imo and the work itself should have been done anyway since its the last act, to turn Miranda's role into the role that she really should play in this final act.

To set up what on paper makes complete sense in terms of the direction you intended to go with the storyline for me3 and to not then use again a character that makes so much sense that the character would play a large role in the direction you were heading. is just something that i don't comphrehend.

While the initial fears we had seem to have subsided somewhat, for me i'll always have this nagging little annoyance in my head that they could and should have done so much better. I can accept that for other me2 specific characters because they either don't or shouldn't have played a large role in the story anyway (jack, samara etc) or because the storyline has already given a reason why they may not (mordin, thane etc) but to do so for Miranda given the context of how the storyline looks to be heading is practically unforgiveable imo.

In the end we'll get what we get and we'll be happier than some people will regarding other characters, but that one thing alone is enough to stop me3 being what i had hoped it would be, whether the experience we'll get instead is enough to turn that feeling around for me won't be known until march.

[flemm]

alperez wrote...
Considering this is the last act in a trilogy, surely if your ever going to push the boat out now is the time, to me though the only logical reason i can come up with why they wouldn't is they're afraid to make any me2 specific characters role too large and important because it may annoy fans of other me2 specific characters.

That may be so. In which case, I think it was misguided. Obviously, not every character was going to play an equivalently large role, and some tough choices were going to have to be made. But all this does is set up a system where the ME2 characters are marginalized.

As a fan of the ME2 characters much moreso than ME1, the reality is I am not going to be able a to recruit a single one of those characters to the squad. We know it didn't have to work this way because of Tali and Garrus. Obviously, it is their game and their characters, they can do what they want. But this was a bad call imo. 

Ohei wrote...

Anyone read the extended leak 4chan extracted? Don't want any spoilers, but if someone did, I just want to know if they are more pleased with Miranda's role or not.

Well, tbh, we're still sorting it out at this point. Concretely, she is onscreen for one mission late in the game, with some long-distance interaction beforehand and maybe a little more interaction of some kind at the very end of the game. Quality of the mission itself is hard to evaluate with the info we have.

Modifié par flemm, 13 novembre 2011 - 01:50 .

[alperez]

flemm wrote...

That may be so. In which case, I think it was misguided. Obviously, not every character was going to play an equivalently large role, and some tough choices were going to have to be made. But all this does is set up a system where the ME2 characters are marginilzed.

As a fan of the ME2 characters much moreso than ME1, the reality is I am not going to be able a to recruit a single one of those characters to the squad. We know it didn't have to work this way because of Tali and Garrus. Obviously, it is their game and their characters, they can do what they want. But this was a bad call imo. 

I'm a fan of both sets of characters me1 and me2, to me the premise in me3 should have been a combination of both sets of characters to really hammer the point home that this has been an epic journey and that along the way you've met various different characters, some of them have become friends, some rather important allies and some may have fallen.

Look at something like LOTR, the trilogy features core characters but along the way some fall, some are changed by the experiences they've gone through and some grow surprisingly into different characters than originally you may have envisioned.

To do the same thing in mass effect only required that you plot out character arcs properly and plot out your storyline to make sense using these same character arcs.

So when you see things being brought into the story like Thane's illness and Mordin's age then expecting them to play a large role at the end is an unrealistic goal both from the characters own arcs and the storyline in general, but when you decide to set up an organisation like cerberus to be a major antagonist in the third act of the trilogy, when you decide to make TIm such a major player and you then decide that it makes storyline and character arc sense not to use a character like Miranda to play a major role in the resolution of that story arc it goes against all common sense imo.

If they had always decided that cerberus would play a large role then imo its completely unforgiveable to not use Miranda's character to fully expand that story arc to its logical conclussion, even if it was only decided once me2 was completed it makes little sense not to use Miranda for the same purpose, to me its a case of bad writing that i just don't understand.

Fan favoritism aside, it makes no logical storyline sense that Garrus would play a larger role in me3 than Miranda, Tali perhaps but Garrus imo no, but again it stil brings me back to the same conclussion which is what i find so dissappointing.

Which is that either by putting a little more effort or forethought into the characters and storyline originally or by using a little more logic and expanding a little more effort once you'd decided the route the story would take for the final act, the game itself would be so much better than it may be.

[jtav]

Yes, it's disappointing. But I imagine I'll only feel mildly irritated when I play ME3, unless one of those missing segments derails her character. I imagine what they did was take the two characters with the largest "old guard" fanbase, bring them back, and assign the rest to temp roles. Which is unfortunate for us. Just not game-ruining for me personally as long as what she does have is good.

I suppose my optimism is born of dread. I was half-expecting a Miranda who was inept and broken, whose supposed strength was only an illusion concealing a quivering mass of issues and delusion. Instead I'm seeing a character I can respect and like. And, well, I never really expected squad status. Seriously, it's right there in my first post.

[Td1984]

So is everybody resigned to the fact that Miri's role is going to be unsatisfyingly small? If I feel the need to have an LI who is with me throughout the majority of ME3, I'm willing to romance Ash during my canon run, but what I'll likely end up doing is romancing Miranda anyway and just dealing with her role in ME3 in whatever form it happens to end up being.

[flemm]

Td1984 wrote...

So is everybody resigned to the fact that Miri's role is going to be unsatisfyingly small?

Well, it's definitely small. "Unsatisfying" is more of a judgment call, so to each her/his own.

alperez wrote...
I'm a fan of both sets of characters me1 and me2, to me the premise in me3 should have been a combination of both sets of characters to really hammer the point home that this has been an epic journey and that along the way you've met various different characters, some of them have become friends, some rather important allies and some may have fallen.

I have no problem with the ME1 characters. I can find something to enjoy in all of the characters in the series. What I'm looking for is some type of balance, and I'm not seeing it.

Good post, by the way, I agree with you.

Modifié par flemm, 13 novembre 2011 - 03:08 .

[enayasoul]

I'm still debating whether or not I am truly happy with what's spoilers I've read. Some of the parts I like. She's the same character we love. Kick ass spy... She's independent and has her own goals and how she goes about it will be interesting. The possible death of my favorite character bothers me greatly. From what I've read... Mr. Lang needs to die, painfully! :-)

The issues that I would love to see happen or resolved with Miranda is:
1) Who her father is, what he looks like, his motivations of why he did what he did to Miranda, and if he has any regrets... and for being emotionally abusive? He may still be an ass that needs to be taken down so Miranda can finally make peace with herself. Accepting who she really is and grow more confident and accept her accomplishments and not just her failures. She needs a happy ending with Shepard and Oriana.

2) I want her to do something great! She can say I did that and takes credit for it!

3) Interaction with Shep, Oriana and Miranda. I want to know more about Oriana and if she is anything like Miranda or completely normal? Or happy, emotionally... like she was brought up with loving parents. How Oriana turned out.

4) I really want Shepard and Miranda to really get together in lots of ways. :-) Do we get a love scene??? I want Shepard to have some alone time with her!

5) Does Miranda tell Shepard about her infertility problem or does she solve it on her own and never tells him because she's ashamed or bothered by it. I want her to overcome it herself. AND have her say, "I solved that problem." And why can't she?

6) Learn more about her past...

7) Shepard and Miranda talk about the future... :-) My own personal opinion... I think they are a great match for each other. If they both show how much they love each, I'll be happy and cry my eyes out. haha...

I know this is a lot to ask... but would be great...

Modifié par enayasoul, 13 novembre 2011 - 03:24 .

[alperez]

flemm wrote...

I have no problem with the ME1 characters. I can find something to enjoy in all of the characters in the series. What I'm looking for is some type of balance, and I'm not seeing it.

.

I may have mistaken your meaning, its more the role they seemingly play now rather than the characters themselves that you take issue with if i understand your meaning correctly.

If so i agree to a point in the fact that it seems unfair in relation to the me2 specific ones, i can understand Liara and the VS since they're guaranteed to be alive so can have plot specifics revolve around them and also to an extent Tal since again theres a plot specfic situation where it makes sense, its garrus though that gets me simply because when compared to Miranda he really doesn't seem plot specific at all.

But like i said i could make a case why none of the rest of the me2 specific cast should play a large role and i could live with that because in most cases it makes sense why that it be the case.

However to include Garrus but not Miranda is where i really feel all possible cases just fall to pieces.

[flemm]

alperez wrote...

However to include Garrus but not Miranda is where i really feel all possible cases just fall to pieces.

Well, I certainly agree with the specific point that you are making regarding Miranda, and the story potential of the character, given how ME3's plot appears to be unfolding. We've talk a lot about that here, and I do think it will be a shame if that potential is untapped.

Modifié par flemm, 13 novembre 2011 - 04:26 .

[JosephDucreux]

Garrus and Tali are nothing more than Shepard's loyal lapdogs in all two games so far. Basically, no Shepard= no Garrus & Tali. Why? Because they're pretty much dead driftwood following the current (Shepard) and both have nothing outside of following Shepard.

Which is also why I never liked them. They're the only two squadmates who have nothing else going on besides following Shepard.

[Skullheart]

JosephDucreux wrote...

Garrus and Tali are nothing more than Shepard's loyal lapdogs in all two games so far. Basically, no Shepard= no Garrus & Tali. Why? Because they're pretty much dead driftwood following the current (Shepard) and both have nothing outside of following Shepard.

Which is also why I never liked them. They're the only two squadmates who have nothing else going on besides following Shepard.

You can always kill them in the SM, or prepare a surprise for them in ME3...
by example: start a romance with Tali, broke up with her, side with legion, and don't recover her loyalty.

The only thing that I have against Garrus and Tali being in the squad, is that they romance can develope in ways that the others character's wont. I still don't know if we can have a culmination with the ME2 LIs.

Modifié par Skullheart, 13 novembre 2011 - 04:53 .

[Quole]

Apparently Miranda plays a large role in ME3. I wonder how this will be affected after I killed her on the SM. Perhaps I will have a completely different objective? Or maybe I wont get the mission at all? I wonder how her father will react.

Modifié par Quole, 13 novembre 2011 - 06:21 .

[JosephDucreux]

Quole wrote...

Apparently Miranda plays a large role in ME3. I wonder how this will be affected after I killed her on the SM. Perhaps I will have a completely different objective? Or maybe I wont get the mission at all? I wonder how her father will react.

Your objective is this Quole:

[Ieldra]

[quote]alperez wrote...
While the initial fears we had seem to have subsided somewhat, for me i'll always have this nagging little annoyance in my head that they could and should have done so much better. I can accept that for other me2 specific characters because they either don't or shouldn't have played a large role in the story anyway (jack, samara etc) or because the storyline has already given a reason why they may not (mordin, thane etc) but to do so for Miranda given the context of how the storyline looks to be heading is practically unforgiveable imo.[/quote]
While I fully agree with this, I should point out that while Miranda is the most obvious character to include given the setup with Cerberus as antagonist, she is also the most problematic to include, because she has no fixed allegiance after the events of ME2. If you fight against Cerberus over most of the game, you would need to fix her allegiance before taking her on those missions made any sense. And imagine the everpresent trust issues that needed to be resolved. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but plainly, as soon as the decision was made that Shepard works with the Alliance again, the chances of Miranda being on the team went down the drain. And, even more to the point, I'd rather have a non-team Miranda who retains some of her moral ambiguity than an on-team Miranda who doesn't.

[quote]In the end we'll get what we get and we'll be happier than some people will regarding other characters, but that one thing alone is enough to stop me3 being what i had hoped it would be, whether the experience we'll get instead is enough to turn that feeling around for me won't be known until march.[/quote]
We shall see. My satisfaction with Miranda in ME3 will depend on many factors. Screen presence is one, but there's also story impact and characterization.





[/quote]

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Screen presence is as important as her characterisation. Thus, Bioware have already failed.

[alperez]

Ieldra2

I think the allegiance issue is easily rectified, irrespective of how she ends up in me2, cerberus's present activities provide the answer to this themselves.

Simply put a simple "you were right Shepard" resolves any allegiance issue if there really is one, i mean afterall Shepard could have been roleplayed to be on board with Cerberus him/herself during me2 anyway and irrespective of that we still end up fighting cerberus throughout so in Miranda's case its even easier to accomplish imo.

In terms of Shepard working with the alliance causing problems in regard to Miranda, well again if a reluctant Shepard can be forced into working with Cerberus in me2 then why would it not work the same way for a reluctant Miranda to be accepted working with the alliance (or more specifically with Shepard) in me3.

The trust issues will still need to be resolved irrespective of the role imo so they aren't or don't in the end cause any significant problem.

There's one other point why it makes sense but its very spoilery so i'll pm that to you.

As for story impact and characterisation again irrespective of how these are handled imo its the lack of screentime which presents the biggest barrier to both, while i agree to an extent having Miranda accomplish certain actions off screen that benefit both Shepard and the fight with the reapers/cerberus is fitting to her character, i don't see why giving her more screentime on top of this would in someway be doing her character a disservice.

To my mind they could easily accomplish both with an early set of e-mails leading to the reunion and following that a permanent squadrole, to me that is what makes the most sense for Miranda's character.

[Skullheart]

Oh yes, allegiance. It looks like the Alliance didn't have much problem with a Cerberus AI in the Normandy.

I'm still hoping that Miranca can join us at the end with a squad status, like Hawke siblings in DA2.

It will be great I we get a scene like Tidus & Yuna (FFX, before the final boss) before Shepard go and make the final choice.

I know that is almost impossible, but I can dream.

Modifié par Skullheart, 13 novembre 2011 - 10:54 .

[alperez]

Skullheart

My mother was fond of saying "a dream is just a wish that's still to be granted" so lets hope she was right.

[Errol Dnamyx]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...

Screen presence is as important as her characterisation. Thus, Bioware have already failed.

Quoted for truthery.

[alxboss78]

Excuse me guys, but if we have already accepted that the more likely scenario involves Miri having limited screentime and no recruitability, have we tried giving grief to the guys from Bioware? I mean if enough of us bombard them with complaints about her limited screentime it might force them at least to make a comment to refute that or at the least give a justification. In any way we will no much more than we know now. And it's not the same as before... they can't say that they can't comment because they will spoil her role, they've already allowed this leak, so we know a lot more from that than anything they would have said...

Just my 2 cents

[Ieldra]

alperez wrote...
As for story impact and characterisation again irrespective of how these are handled imo its the lack of screentime which presents the biggest barrier to both, while i agree to an extent having Miranda accomplish certain actions off screen that benefit both Shepard and the fight with the reapers/cerberus is fitting to her character, i don't see why giving her more screentime on top of this would in someway be doing her character a disservice.

To my mind they could easily accomplish both with an early set of e-mails leading to the reunion and following that a permanent squadrole, to me that is what makes the most sense for Miranda's character.

Didn't say anything about additional screentime being a disservice. The limited screentime is a disappointment of epic proportion, no doubt, and even more so since other, far less "deserving" characters from a story viewpoint, are favored with a permanent team slot. Still, this has always been of less importance to me than story impact and characterization. Should Miranda's impact on the main plot turn out to be inconsequential, or should she be turned into a Paragon, *then* I'll be up in arms. 

@alxboss:
We won't get any comments on that before the game is out, I can almost guarantee that. Even if it's only to avoid confirming or denying the spoilers.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 novembre 2011 - 11:16 .