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[flemm]

AstronautN7 wrote...

@ San Diego Comic Con I asked Casey Hudson personally, while waiting to play the ME3 demo, if Yvonne Strahovski would be facing/voicing Miranda Lawson again in ME3, to which he replied  "Yes, she'll be back".

*snip*

Interesting stuff, AstronautN7, thanks for posting 
 
I'm not really concerned about her not returning, but was more just remarking that it's odd it hasn't been mentioned. However, the explanation could be that she is recording late, as you point out. So, they would likely wait until then.

Modifié par flemm, 15 novembre 2011 - 01:58 .

[alperez]

Re-reading through some of the leak and spoilers it completely amazes me how much of what i thought would happen doesn't and how much stuff i hoped would not does, but the thing that continually gets me annoyed is the simplicity of how certain things could be fixed for things to work out so much better for all fans of specific characters.

One thing i always assumed they would do is just before the end scenario they'd create a situation where all characters who were alive would be in the same place, thereby allowing the resolution of every final strand of personal character arcs to be resolved, romanced or friendships.

In DA2 just before the final battle you get an option to talk to all your squadmates, you get simple answers and simple questions but it allows for the character arcs to be resolved, considering me3 is set up for a final battle wouldn't it have made sense to do something like this.

For example, everyone meets up on the normandy just before you set off on your final encounter, you can assign missions, tasks and whatever to each of the squadmates and then pick your final team from who you have left.

For the romance scene we'd get pretty much the pre ilos and pre SM romance scene with whichever romance we have (providing they're alive off course) and maybe just a little extra bit of dialogue to show just where the romance is heading, then simply forward to the final mission.

What annoys me is that this is actually rather simple to accomplish imo, they did it already in me1 and me2 and to not include it in me3 makes absolutely no sense both in the context of the situaiton we're in overall and in the fact it allows each character arc to be finished in a more satisfying way.

Seriously, how many people expected that the end scenario would be something like the assault on the death star, where the combined fleets meet up go over their plans and put them into action.

[Ieldra]

alperez wrote...
One thing i always assumed they would do is just before the end scenario they'd create a situation where all characters who were alive would be in the same place, thereby allowing the resolution of every final strand of personal character arcs to be resolved, romanced or friendships.

I wouldn't mind those final resolutions to be spread out more over the game. I always found that these situations you describe were highly artificial.

But there has to be a romance scene with your LI. I would cry foul if a minor character who became an LI didn't get a romance scene, to do this to an important one and the lead of the previous games is inexcusable.

What annoys me is that this is actually rather simple to accomplish imo, they did it already in me1 and me2 and to not include it in me3 makes absolutely no sense both in the context of the situaiton we're in overall and in the fact it allows each character arc to be finished in a more satisfying way.

Agreed. All of the omissions are easy to fix. I don't know how to take this. Should I be optimistic because things are incomplete and easy to fix and I can't believe that they wouldn't be, or should I complain because I take the leak at face value? The only upside to this is that it's as easy to fix in fanfic.

I'm more worried about my impression that we're fighting Miranda's writer(s) in certain aspects of her character we like. I want Miranda to own her gifts, not disown them. I want Miranda to tell her father "The gifts you gave me, they're mine to use as I see fit", not "These gifts you gave me, they're not what I am". Not that there's any indication either way so far, but certain lines are troubling in context. And while the redemption angle is only implied by other characters, I get the impression that's the writer's favorite interpretation. I take that back.

Or maybe I'm just seeing more bad possibilities on top of those which have already manifested. 


 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 novembre 2011 - 11:56 .

[Ieldra]

@jtav:
Your fanfic made me cry. I can empathize with Matt quite a bit.... that scene with Oriana you refer to, is that in any of your published material? I don't recall it.

@all:
Just saying that our "conclusion" that there won't be a romance scene may just be a little premature. Details in the spoiler group.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 novembre 2011 - 10:00 .

[Beard_of_Bees]

Ieldra2 wrote...
@all:
Just saying that our "conclusion" that there won't be a romance scene may just be a little premature. Details in the spoiler group.

I have been reading this thread for some time, and when the leaks came out I thought it cannot be as bad as it looks, it was just too grim. There must be more. So little things like that restore my faith somewhat.

For what it is worth I can cope with no squadmate status, so long as

(i) once she is introduced to the game you can go and see her (e.g. she is on, I don't know, the Citadel say, and you can call into her office)

and

(ii) she can be interacted with in the endgame (and that is not a euphemsim for anything else btw )

[Ieldra]

Beard_of_Bees wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
@all:
Just saying that our "conclusion" that there won't be a romance scene may just be a little premature. Details in the spoiler group.

I have been reading this thread for some time, and when the leaks came out I thought it cannot be as bad as it looks, it was just too grim. There must be more. So little things like that restore my faith somewhat.

The original leak painted a grim picture, so it might have put us all in a negative mood. I find myself caught in it occasionally, to my chagrin and embarrassment.

For what it is worth I can cope with no squadmate status, so long as
(i) once she is introduced to the game you can go and see her (e.g. she is on, I don't know, the Citadel say, and you can call into her office)

and
(ii) she can be interacted with in the endgame (and that is not a euphemsim for anything else btw )

If you want your questions answered, request membership in this group. I made it non-public in order to not accidentally link to spoilers.

[JosephDucreux]

In light of all the sh*t that's happened so far, I wish there was an option for Shepard going 'screw you all, I'm going to be bros with the Reapers. Oh, and f**k you all too!'

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

New picture


I requested this from a very generous girl who goes by the name of K-Laine on deviantart.
http://k-laine.deviantart.com/

Hope nobody minds me quoting this. Beautiful. I'm now back to "Miranda appreciation and discussion mode". Hopefully for good.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 novembre 2011 - 12:23 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Agreed. All of the omissions are easy to fix. I don't know how to take this.

 
I admit, I'm sort of in the same position. Either I don't understand what I'm seeing here at all, and there is somehow much more Miranda material in the game than would appear. Or, I do understand it, and it's ridiculous how little there is. 

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm more worried about my impression that we're fighting Miranda's writer(s) in certain aspects of her character we like. I want Miranda to own her gifts, not disown them. I want Miranda to tell her father "The gifts you gave me, they're mine to use as I see fit", not "These gifts you gave me, they're not what I am".

I'm concerned about this type of thing as well, but on this point, I do think it's a bit early to draw any conclusions. The most important conversation is missing, and dialog is the aspect of these leaks that is most likely to have seen extensive revisions anyway.

I have the same general impression as you do about the direction of it, though. For it to go differently, especially regarding her involvement with Cerberus, I think Miranda would have to be more deeply involved in the game. Rather than a demonized Cerberus, we would have to have a situation where another view of the organisation was represented by Miranda.
 
Regarding her genetic enchancements, her opinion of that should be completely independant of anything else, so I could see her embracing them, if the writers want to go in that direction.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hope nobody minds me quoting this. Beautiful. I'm now back to "Miranda appreciation and discussion mode". Hopefully for good.

Not at all. Very nice

Modifié par flemm, 15 novembre 2011 - 01:21 .

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Hope nobody minds me quoting this. Beautiful. I'm now back to "Miranda appreciation and discussion mode". Hopefully for good.

I do wish we'd do more of this...

[Ieldra]

Eh....trying to find a discussion topic that doesn't touch any spoilers. Irritatingly hard. Do we have to go back to everyday stuff like "Where would you take Miranda for a date?"


And just because nobody has said it for some time: Miranda is awesome!

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 novembre 2011 - 02:48 .

[Xilizhra]

That doesn't sound so horrible.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

AstronautN7 wrote...



@ San Diego Comic Con I asked Casey Hudson personally, while waiting to play the ME3 demo, if Yvonne Strahovski would be facing/voicing Miranda Lawson again in ME3, to which he replied  "Yes, she'll be back".

Is this true?! No lies??!

[Xilizhra]

I want Miranda to tell her father "The gifts you gave me, they're mine to use as I see fit", not "These gifts you gave me, they're not what I am".

But... they're not what she is. The first line isn't bad, but the second line is much more fitting with all her dialogue about them all throughout ME2. And saying it doesn't mean she won't use them, just that she isn't defined by them as a person, which she's not. It seems a lot of her arc is about how she learns to stop just being a tool for other people.

[CrutchCricket]

Xilizhra wrote...
But... they're not what she is. The first line isn't bad, but the second line is much more fitting with all her dialogue about them all throughout ME2. And saying it doesn't mean she won't use them, just that she isn't defined by them as a person, which she's not. It seems a lot of her arc is about how she learns to stop just being a tool for other people.

Hmm. This got me thinking that talking to Thane would probably be good for Miranda as well. This is along the same vein as the "talking to Grunt" idea we were discussing quite a few pages back. With Grunt it was remarking on their similarities as to how they were made and how they could carve their own path independent of their makers. With Thane his "body as a tool" mentality could be useful even if she doesn't fully buy his dualism.

Thane and Miranda bump into each other in the hallway.

Thane: Pardon me Ms Lawson.

Miranda: Not at all Mr. Krios (feels his gaze linger) Something I can help you with?

Thane: (after a beat) They say you were designed to be perfect. That you were built to be a legacy.

Miranda: Really? And who might "they" be?

Thane: Cerberus files. I agreed to work with you. I never agreed to do it blind.

Miranda: Security breach aside, I don't think it's any of you damn business.

Thane: I meant no offense. But if I may say so, you seem rather touchy on the subject.

Miranda: Well, we can't all be so compacent about being raised as a tool for our masters now can we?

Thane: Complacency has nothing to do with it. My body is a tool I used for the hanar to honor the terms of the compact. When I chose to, I started using it for myself and those I care about.

Miranda: Do you really believe that?

Thane: Do you really believe otherwise? You were artificially created and genetically modified. You have a sister on Illium that was similarily made, from the same DNA. If you are your body, are you also her body?

Miranda: How do you-?

Thane: You were on Illium when I was, shooting up a warehouse with Eclipse mercs. It made my own infiltration into Dantius Towers easier. I stay informed about my missions. But tell me, do you believe you are the same person as your sister?

Miranda: No... we're different.

Thane: Exactly. You are more than your body, Ms. Lawson and therefore more than the engineered legacy of a deranged man. What you choose to do with what he gave you, is up to you alone. Excuse me. I must return to my meditations.

Thane leaves as Miranda glances at him thoughtfully.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 15 novembre 2011 - 03:39 .

[flemm]

Xilizhra wrote...
But... they're not what she is. The first line isn't bad, but the second line is much more fitting with all her dialogue about them all throughout ME2. And saying it doesn't mean she won't use them, just that she isn't defined by them as a person, which she's not. It seems a lot of her arc is about how she learns to stop just being a tool for other people.

Well, I think both versions of the line contain the idea that Miranda is not defined by her enchancements. But the connotation is different. The first embraces them, the second would seem to imply more that she had escaped them.

The latter line, considered on its own, would not necessarily be a big problem for me, as the distinction is relatively subtle, but I don't see any real reason for it.

I would prefer that the game, in general, not support the view that Miranda's enhancements are innately bad and unnatural, i.e. she is less of a person than everyone else because of them unless she proves otherwise. It's an important nuance.

It's ok if that type of prejudice is expressed by other characters in the game, as that would realistically be the reaction of some people, but the game as a whole should allow for the other view, especially via Miranda herself.

Ieldra2 wrote...
"Where would you take Miranda for a date?"

Illium. She seems to like it there.

Definitely not to that pisshole on Omega 

Modifié par flemm, 15 novembre 2011 - 04:39 .

[Xilizhra]

Miranda's enhancements themselves aren't bad, but the reason for their existence and the way they were intended most definitely were. It doesn't make her a lesser person, but it's reasonable for her to not see them as a blessing.

[flemm]

Xilizhra wrote...

Miranda's enhancements themselves aren't bad, but the reason for their existence and the way they were intended most definitely were. It doesn't make her a lesser person, but it's reasonable for her to not see them as a blessing.

That's the distinction that Ieldra's first line is underlining, though: the enchancements are not bad, just her father's methods and intentions. Whereas the second line doesn't really make that distinction (it seems to imply the enchancements are innately bad).

It was reasonable for her to not see them as a blessing (in ME2), given her past history. But it would be an important step for the character to move beyond that. She's not there yet in ME2, but she could be in ME3.

Modifié par flemm, 15 novembre 2011 - 04:44 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
That's the distinction that Ieldra's first line is underlining, though: the enchancements are not bad, just her father's methods and intentions. Whereas the second line doesn't really make that distinction (it seems to imply the enchancements are innately bad).

I don't think the lines imply value judgements of "good" or "bad" actually. The first line denotes her taking ownership of her "gifts"- "You made me like this for your gain but I will use this for mine".

The second denies "the gifts"' ownership of her - "You made me like this but I am not a thing that you own". Particularly apt given one of the issues of genetic engineering today is gene patenting and how much can you "own".

Neither is bad and I think saying both and believing both provides her the greatest degree of acceptance and control.

[MisterJB]

I think Cricket said it well. The lines are not mutually exclusive and using a mix of both in the game would be ideal. Miranda realizes that her gifts are not what defines her and that she does not need to use them as a way of excusing her existence. However, there's also nothing inherently bad in them, just in the man who forced them on her. Thus, onwards, everything she decides to accomplish using her gifts she will do so because she wants to.

Ieldra2 wrote...
 "Where would you take Miranda for a date?"

Thessia (the very heart of Asari culture) or maybe Sur'Kesh (where some of the greatest minds in the Galaxy gather).

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 novembre 2011 - 05:16 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
I don't think the lines imply value judgements of "good" or "bad" actually. The first line denotes her taking ownership of her "gifts"- "You made me like this for your gain but I will use this for mine".

The second denies "the gifts"' ownership of her - "You made me like this but I am not a thing that you own". Particularly apt given one of the issues of genetic engineering today is gene patenting and how much can you "own".

Your version of the second line is a bit different than Ieldra's, though. Basically, you've changed the nuance a bit, and I agree with you that both of the above are important aspects of what Miranda should eventually understand about her enhancements.

Like I said above, even Ieldra's second version of the line doesn't really bother me much because, as you say, it could be interpreted a number of different ways. Overall, though, I think the point remains that Miranda should at some point deny the stigma associated with her origins (in her own mind in ME2, and perhaps in the minds of others).

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

So it's true that Yvonne will return:wub:?

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 15 novembre 2011 - 05:26 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Your version of the second line is a bit different than Ieldra's, though. Basically, you've changed the nuance a bit, and I agree with you that both of the above are important aspects of what Miranda should eventually understand about her enhancements.

My example line was not accurate to the original intention, yes. Rather it was a consequence of it. The whole line of reasoning would go like this:

You gave me gifts;
These gifts do not control me or define me;
Therefore you don't control me or define me.

I just jumped a conclusion.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
I don't think the lines imply value judgements of "good" or "bad" actually. The first line denotes her taking ownership of her "gifts"- "You made me like this for your gain but I will use this for mine".

The second denies "the gifts"' ownership of her - "You made me like this but I am not a thing that you own". Particularly apt given one of the issues of genetic engineering today is gene patenting and how much can you "own".

Your version of the second line is a bit different than Ieldra's, though. Basically, you've changed the nuance a bit, and I agree with you that both of the above are important aspects of what Miranda should eventually understand about her enhancements.

Like I said above, even Ieldra's second version of the line doesn't really bother me much because, as you say, it could be interpreted a number of different ways. Overall, though, I think the point remains that Miranda should at some point deny the stigma associated with her origins (in her own mind in ME2, and perhaps in the minds of others).

That's what I was getting at. It would be different if her enhancements wasn't stuff people would usually kill to have.  She has issues with them only because of this problem of ownership. And she - not her father - has done things like bringing Shepard back, taken part in saving the galaxy etc.. Her father would say "Your enhancements are all that you are, the reason for your existence". She could answer "And yet here I am, thwarting your plans." It's a problem that can solved in her own mind, though a confronation with her father will surely help.

Anyway, as long as she takes ownership of her enhancements and the game doesn't try to make a point about genetic enhancements as such being bad, it will be OK for me.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
My example line was not accurate to the original intention, yes. Rather it was a consequence of it. The whole line of reasoning would go like this:

You gave me gifts;
These gifts do not control me or define me;
Therefore you don't control me or define me.

I just jumped a conclusion.

Right, which is fine. However, the line is ambiguous enough to allow for the other interpretation, that Miranda has yet to embrace her gifts. What I'm saying is: the line would be fine in and of itself, but, considered as part of a larger set of lines and scenes, I would like Miranda's perspective to tilt one way and not the other.

Modifié par flemm, 15 novembre 2011 - 05:33 .