82210 réponses à ce sujet

[naledgeborn]

If Miranda were a lesbian or bisexual she should have been in Mass Effect 2. At the very least it could have been openly stated or subtly implied like Jack. It wasn't therefore making it so in Mass Effect 3 is a retcon.

Yes, I get it. Not every lesbian or gay will openly broadcast their sexual preference or stereotypically act a certain way. But that is real life, not a video game.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 24 juin 2011 - 04:07 .

[Melra]

And you know how the video games work? I don't think they've been around long enough to make statements like that.

[upsettingshorts]

naledgeborn wrote...

If Miranda were a lesbian or bisexual she should have been in Mass Effect 2. At the very least it could have been openly stated or subtly implied like Jack. It wasn't therefore making it so in Mass Effect 3 is a retcon.

That's not what retcon means. 

[goofyomnivore]

Out of the human LI, I think Miranda would be the best s/s candidate. Although I think Ashley/Kaidan are going to be that option.

OT: I thought Jack outright said she wasn't interested in women?

[jtav]

Jack says she's not interested in joining the girls club but had a threesome with another woman and her boyfriend.

As long as Shepard isn't Miranda's first, I have no problem.

[Ieldra]

A bi Miranda is a retcon. From tvtropes.org:

"Retcon = Retroactive Continuity.

Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. When the inserted events work with what was previously stated, it's a Revision; when they outright replace it, it's a Rewrite. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on."

The problem with a retcon is that the absence of an f/f romance in ME2 has established Miranda as straight in most players' minds, which results in a cognitive dissonance in ME3 should she become bi.

Personally, I also fear that bi Miranda will result in more generic romance dialogue. That's the main reason I'm against it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2011 - 04:40 .

[upsettingshorts]

Ieldra2 wrote...

A bi Miranda is a retcon. From tvtropes.org:

You must have a more liberal interpretation of what that article describes than I do.  Because it's still not a retcon.

It's much closer to Jossed, linked in the same article. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 juin 2011 - 04:46 .

[Master Shiori]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The problem with a retcon is that the absence of an f/f romance in ME2 has established Miranda as straight in most players' minds, which results in a cognitive dissonance in ME3 should she become bi.

Considering the distinct lack of  information about her sexual preference or history, other than a brief relationship with Jacob which Miri doesn't even bring up at any time, I'd say there is nothing solid to base the whole "Miri cannot be bisexual" argument on. Sure, FemShep cannot flirt with her in ME2, but she couldn't flirt with Garrus in ME1 either and I don't see anyone saying how Bioware ruined Garrus' character by making him attracted to other species. We simply lacked proper information about whether or not Garrus would ever consider a relationship with FemShep.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Personally, I also fear that bi Miranda will result in more generic romance dialogue.

Doesn't have to be. DA2 had distinct dialogue for male and female Hawke pursuing the same LI. ME3 could easily have the same should Bioware be willing to put time and effort into it.
Doesn't have to be a completely different dialogue tree. Simply having 2-3 gender unique romance lines would do the trick nicely.

[enayasoul]

I think it would be interesting to find out if she did explore or kissed another female while in her 20's or something. Trying to find out who she was... but who knows. She could be only be heterosexual for all we know.

[The Uncanny]

Ieldra2 wrote...

A bi Miranda is a retcon. From tvtropes.org:

"Retcon = Retroactive Continuity.

Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. When the inserted events work with what was previously stated, it's a Revision; when they outright replace it, it's a Rewrite. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on."

The problem with a retcon is that the absence of an f/f romance in ME2 has established Miranda as straight in most players' minds, which results in a cognitive dissonance in ME3 should she become bi.

Personally, I also fear that bi Miranda will result in more generic romance dialogue. That's the main reason I'm against it.

What you seem to be arguing is that anyone who does not seen Miranda as potentially bisexual would find her being so a 'retcon'.

But here is my point: why? How is it cognitive dissonance unless she sits down in front of MaleShep and says "Oh by the way, I sleep with women too. That isn't a problem for you is it?"

She would not do that. There need be no impact on how a MaleShep player perceives her whatsoever.

Also I don't see it making her romance more generic. Any s/s romance has always been implemented with a few additional lines of variant dialogue. The writer's focus is, and should be, on the character and the emotions.

Modifié par The Uncanny, 24 juin 2011 - 04:54 .

[Errol Dnamyx]

Awesome, another thread endlessly discussing ******-hetero-bi-whateversexuality. Exactly what this forum needed.

[Ieldra]

The Uncanny wrote...
But here is my point: why? How is it cognitive dissonance unless she sits down in front of MaleShep and says "Oh by the way, I sleep with women too. That isn't a problem for you is it?"

They tried that in DA2. They made it so that you could roleplay almost any romance (exception: Anders) as if the character were straight or lesbian/gay without any contradictions. In principle a very good idea. But unfortunately, my perception of the character is not only shaped by my own playing experience, but also by that of others I communicate with. If I know a character is bi from another source, then I cannot roleplay as if she weren't any more.

Also I don't see it making her romance more generic. Any s/s romance has always been implemented with a few additional lines of variant dialogue. The writer's focus is, and should be, on the character and the emotions.

Additional lines, maybe, but not differing visuals. I don't think we'd have gotten the kiss scene in the romance were Miranda bi, and that's one of my favorites. In DA2, I found that Isabela's f/f romance was not convincing, it felt like a patch of the straight romance. I agree that it could theoretically be handled well, but I doubt that it will be. 

[Ieldra]

Nyoka wrote...
Reframing past events.

You need Miranda rejecting a same sex relationship, so we can reframe that rejection into acceptance. Didn't happen. You don't have any past event to reframe.

A retcon does not require a contradiction. It is a reinterpretation. As the text says, in its simplest form, a retcon is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning.

First, you are not the spokesman of most players. You speak only for yourself.

It is a plausible suppostion. I challenge you to disprove it or replace it with an equally plausible one.

Second, if she's straight in your game, that's fantastic. Don't romance her with femshep. Romance her with Manshep. Simple as that.

It is not as simple as that. See my previous post for the explanation.

Personally, I also fear that bi Miranda will result in more generic romance dialogue.

That's an implementation thing unrelated to Miranda's character. You want a good romance, I want a good romance. We want the same thing.

If her character being bi is likely to result in a lesser implementation of the romance, then I have grounds to prefer the s/s options not to be present.

[The Uncanny]

Ieldra2 wrote...

But unfortunately, my perception of the character is not only shaped by my own playing experience, but also by that of others I communicate with. If I know a character is bi from another source, then I cannot roleplay as if she weren't any more.

So what it ultimately comes down is 'if Miranda is an f/f option I'll lose interest in her because she's an f/f option'.

[Ieldra]

The Uncanny wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

But unfortunately, my perception of the character is not only shaped by my own playing experience, but also by that of others I communicate with. If I know a character is bi from another source, then I cannot roleplay as if she weren't any more.

So what it ultimately comes down is 'if Miranda is an f/f option I'll lose interest in her because she's an f/f option'.

Would you please stop putting words into my mouth and opinions into my brain. Miranda remains my favorite character and I will continue to romance her regardless of what they do to her sexual orientation. Nonetheless, I have a very strong preference for a non-bi Miranda. Is that so hard to understand?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2011 - 05:18 .

[Bocks]

Miranda isn't my favourite character, but I would like her to have some type of role in ME3's story. Not as big as it was in ME2, though. Seeing other characters get sidetracked because of her got annoying sometimes. I'm not saying I don't like her, but I don't want her hogging up all the story. Every character should have an equal contribution.

[The Uncanny]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Would you please stop putting words into my mouth and opinions into my brain.

I'm sorry you feel that is what I'm doing. I meant no offence. I was just trying to get to the heart of your objections.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda remains my favorite character and I will continue to romance her. Nonetheless, I have a very strong preference for a non-bi Miranda. Is that so hard to understand?

You don't want her to be an f/f option. I think you have made that clear, yes.

[jtav]

Settle down, folks. No personal attacks.

I feel reasonably strongly that she should be made available for f/f, maybe more strongly than I should. It does not break the character for me and actuallt enhances certain aspects, as well as giving me the player more freedom.

[The Uncanny]

Would Miranda make a good Spectre? Personally I think she'd be a more suitable candidate than Ashley.

[Ieldra]

post deleted

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 juin 2011 - 05:24 .

[PMC65]

Master Shiori wrote...

*snip* Considering the distinct lack of  information about her sexual preference or history, other than a brief relationship with Jacob which Miri doesn't even bring up at any time, *snip*

This is one of the things that I like about the character ... I get the feeling that she keeps her cards so close to her chest that even she doesn't know what she is holding sometimes. She makes me think of that old Katherine Hepburn quote: “Never complain. Never explain.” 

Who knows what she has done in her past both personally or professionally? Would she or wouldn't she with a female Shepard? Not sure. I'll leave that up to Bioware ... I just want to make sure that she is in the game (which she will be) and that her sister is ok. Everything else is a bonus!

* And just because she would shower with my femshep after missions and .... er, well ... Miranda said that was just to make sure that Shepard was ok ... you know, nothing funny ... just medical check-ups. That's what she said!       and I quote ......
 
"It's okay Shepard, I'm just making sure that your body is still functioning properly. There could still be side effects from the Lazarus Project and as project manager I need to perform a thorough check-up after every mission."  

       * (EDI: That was a joke)

[Vierna]

I just want her to be a squad member and a romance option... I dont really care is she is bi or straight... though I wouldnt mind romancing her with my femShep )