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"I'll always want you in my life." Miranda Lawson in Mass Effect 3


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#20726
Ieldra

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This post is aimed at Bioware to address concerns about Miranda's appearance in ME3, according to the leaked game scripts. This post contains heavy SPOILERS. I hope three warnings - in the thread title, in this post and by making the spoiler text invisible - will be counted sufficient to prevent it from being deleted for being too spoilerish. If it is not counted sufficient, I would appreciate feedback about how else to bring this to Bioware's attention.

I may start with the statement that I find much to like in what we were seeing in the leaked material. I feel that this needs to be mentioned among all the negativity of the last week. I am convinced that ME3 as a whole will be a great experience. That some of the concerns are deemed major does not change that. But neither do the good parts remove them.

Edit:
This post contains a possible way problem No. 1 could be addressed. Since it is totally hypothetical, it is not a spoiler.

This is what needs to be addressed (highlight to read. SPOILER warning):

Miranda and Cerberus:
We feel that the "Cerberus" part of Miranda's story arc needs closure. She had been working for them for about twenty years and knows the Illusive Man personally. She obviously has ideals that overlap with something Cerberus had been, or pretended to be, at some time. How does she think about that time now? What would be her reaction to those logs we can read about the Lazarus Project and other things, presumably somwhere on The Illusive Man's base?

We feel that Miranda's presence at the confrontation with the Illusive Man would be very, very appropriate. We also realize that this might be difficult to orchestrate, given the way things go. Having her present when we explore the Illusive Man's base may be a feasible alternative. However, given the story structure presented by the leaked material, we do not see a satisfactory resolution to the Cerberus aspect of Miranda's story arc without at least one of these things.

As an extension, it is plausible that Miranda's morality would come up during these scenes. This is a difficult topic since we are divided about the degree of appreciation we have for Miranda's pragmatism. However, we all appreciate it to *some* degree. ME3's Cerberus, fortunately, is so far beyond redemption that no incarnation of Miranda would support it. But when addressing this point, the fact that human advancement by no means implies human supremacism might play a role in describing her character - her not being a xenophobe is already established in ME2. The implication that Cerberus may once have been different may also come into it.
(Personally, I would like her to have been impressed by the original manifesto as it appears in ME:Evolution)


Meeting Miranda:
We think that Miranda should be be active when we meet her, not passive. In deep sh*t, yes, but active. I do not know if the "we find her as a captive" version is still on the table, but particularly in combination with the torture/death version of her story arc, this fits with one of the three things we explicitly said we do not want: Miranda reduced to a victim, passive, to show how bad the villains are.
One possible alternative is to make it so that we meet Miranda fighting. Maybe instead of being one of those captives, she's trying to free them. She's close to being overwhelmed, and it's heavily implied she'd lose against that unique creature if Shepard hadn't come along. Fighting together with her there would be absolutely awesome!


Miranda's endgame impact:
We do not know what's in store for that, but we want to express our preference for a significant endgame impact that fits her. An often expressed wish could be realized if she took over the base TIM has vacated and turns the remaining Cerberus resources against the Reapers. One other possibility I am seeing is that during her absence, she has done research into removing indoctrination from those not too far gone (maybe together with Rana Thanoptis), and she does exactly that with Cerberus' indoctrinated troops, turning them against the Reapers. Research results from the Collector base if you kept it could come in at this point (I just had to mention this).
If something more awesome is in store for her, by all means ignore this.


Miranda's romance:
There should be a romance scene. There is some disagreement among us about whether or not we have found one in the leaked material. There is no disagreement, however, in our wish that there should be one.
Not quite on topic, but I would also like to express my wish that Jacob is treated fairly. I understand that he may get less content than others, but there should be hope for those Shepards who romanced him.


Not really a problem - but a statement of preference: Survival and death scenarios:
No issues have been raised about the about the death ending. Being killed by The Dragon is not an ignoble death, and her killer has established his badassery sufficiently beforehand. However, the torture feels gratuitous. There should be either a point to it, or something else should happen. (controversial suggestion with even more emotional impact: Kai Leng has injected Miranda with Reaper nanites that will transform her into some kind of Improved Husk in order to delay Shepard further - she asks Shepard to kill her before she transforms).
As for "Miranda survives" scenarios - it is, so far, unclear if there are two different versions of that. Just in case, we would like to stress our preference for the "lightly wounded" version. We want Miranda to stay active, even if it's offscreen.


This is it. @all, if you have to add something to this, please tell me. I would also like opinions about whether or not it is permissible to link to this post on Twitter.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 novembre 2011 - 02:45 .


#20727
flemm

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Ieldra2 wrote...
 I would also like opinions about whether or not it is permissible to link to this post on Twitter.


I think linking the thread makes the most sense. They are probably more likely to want to take the general temperature of the room, so to speak, in any event.

Also, we are operating on assumptions, some of which may not be totally accurate, so getting specific beyond a certain point may not be too helpful. But things like:

1) Better, stronger closure to Miranda's Cerberus story (dialog with TIM)...
2) A full romance arc, with romance scene...
3) Active, though potentially in danger, when we meet her...
4) As much interaction and screentime as possible...

I think that type of thing is probably most helpful.
We aren't going to be able to write the story for them, for better or for worse Image IPB

Modifié par flemm, 16 novembre 2011 - 11:09 .


#20728
Ieldra

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I have boldened one-sentence versions of the points in question. And I disagree - constructive criticism means that you make suggestions how things could be better. If it's based on outdated assumptions, I'm sure they get the spirit of it.

I also refuse to include a request of "overall more screen time". That that's desirable goes without saying, but it's better to mention where it's actually needed as opposed to just being desirable.

#20729
wright1978

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I'll just say that i wholeheartedly concur with everything in Ieldra2's extremely well written post above.

#20730
flemm

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I have boldened one-sentence versions of the points in question. And I disagree - constructive criticism means that you make suggestions how things could be better. If it's based on outdated assumptions, I'm sure they get the spirit of it.


I'm not saying we shouldn't make specific suggestions here. Obviously, we are making them all the time, which is great. But, the more focused the better, probably, especially as far as contacting the devs online is concerned.

Ieldra2 wrote...
I also refuse to include a request of "overall more screen time". That that's desirable goes without saying, but it's better to mention where it's actually needed as opposed to just being desirable.


Well, we could do both. Also, I'm not sure it goes without saying, tbh. Not from what I'm seeing in the leak, anyway.

Modifié par flemm, 16 novembre 2011 - 10:42 .


#20731
JosephDucreux

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@Ieldra

Looks good except for the nanite part. That's just lame Drew Karpyshyn plot device. Send away.

Modifié par JosephDucreux, 16 novembre 2011 - 11:40 .


#20732
enayasoul

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Interesting list ieldra1 but let's leave the nanonite idea to fan fic. Do not like, at all. :-)  It can only end badly and already explored with Paul Grayson. 

Modifié par enayasoul, 16 novembre 2011 - 11:19 .


#20733
Ieldra

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@JosephDucreux, enyasoul:
All right. Suggest something better: what kind of death would make you cry and really hate the one responsible? A simple shot doesn't cut it.

Even more: what scenario can you imagine for Miranda's death, that's just so dramatically appropriate that you'd play it once just to see it, even knowing it will make you cry? Don't change who's responsible (and don't mention by name unless in "invisible text").

The version in the leaked material is not bad, there's just no point to the painful part.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 novembre 2011 - 11:56 .


#20734
jtav

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I think the nanites are brilliant. What's the thing Miranda's been fighting for her whole life and the reason she ran away? To have control over her life. indoctrination robs her of that. And making the player kill her is a heartbreaker.

#20735
flemm

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Ieldra2 wrote...

The version in the leaked material is not bad, there's just no point to the painful part.


I'm not too preoccupied by this personally. The death that's there seems reasonably fitting and emotional. And she accomplishes something even in that version of the story. The nanites idea isn't bad either, but I don't see it as preferable, really.

It's the scenario where she lives that concerns me, as well as the beginning of the mission (which could easily be a lot cooler).

Modifié par flemm, 16 novembre 2011 - 12:27 .


#20736
alxboss78

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@iledra2 first of all i sincerely doubt someone from teh devs will spcifically be able to easily find your post. Linking the thread to tweets doesn't make these specific posts readily available (we have 830 pages!! it will get lost in the sea of posts). So i believe you must find an alternative way to contact them and not through the thread. The thread speaks for itself. We don't need specific posts as they can get the general feel by reading a couple of pages.

However i agree with flemm, that we should be more general. If the latest news are true, then that means that they believe they have time to make amendments. As you saw their main interest is to generate more interest for the game. So if they get the impression that a considerbale portion of their fanbase is not pleased (maybe even seriously displeased) with the leak, then they will consider making changes. And even more for Miranda since Yvonne has yet to record anything, which makes any changes easier.

So i guess if we keep the posts (to them) short and simple, stating that we want more screentime for her (which is the MAJOR disapointing fact for the majority of the fans), a complete romance arc and bigger impact on the endgame (from what i've gathered these are the main points we want changed). we would have a greater change of having something pass in the final game...

PS- I've already tweeted to Mac Walters and Hudson and Weeks

Modifié par alxboss78, 16 novembre 2011 - 12:37 .


#20737
flemm

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alxboss78 wrote...
So i guess if we keep the posts (to them) short and simple, stating that we want more screentime for her (which is the MAJOR disapointing fact for the majority of the fans), a complete romance arc and bigger impact on the endgame (from what i've gathered these are the main points we want changed). we would have a greater change of having something pass in the final game...

PS- I've already tweeted to Mac Walters and Hudson and Weeks


Agreed. That's basically what I was trying to convey above. Here we can put as much detail as we want. The devs or PR can read it if they want. When contacting the devs directly, we will need to keep it short and sweet, due to the limitations of twitter and similar venues.

#20738
jtav

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http://social.biowar...709/830#8703853

Specific post linked to. Done. And I think being specific with our concerns is most effective. "We want more screentime" can easily be read as sour grapes, as opposed to saying that we think a specific plot thread is being neglected. Even within space constraints "More about Miranda and Cerberus" is more helpful than "more Miranda."

Modifié par jtav, 16 novembre 2011 - 12:44 .


#20739
flemm

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jtav wrote...

Specific post linked to. Done. And I think being specific with our concerns is most effective. "We want more screentime" can easily be read as sour grapes, as opposed to saying that we think a specific plot thread is being neglected.


Linking the post is good, too. No harm in that.

jtav wrote...
Even within space constraints "More about Miranda and Cerberus" is more helpful than "more Miranda."


Well, as Mordin would say, "Both help." But, yeah, we can be short and specific at the same time.

Modifié par flemm, 16 novembre 2011 - 12:46 .


#20740
wright1978

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Seem to be making a good start.

Now we just need someone bombard Bioware with Subway's in true 'Chuck' protest style!

#20741
alxboss78

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jtav wrote...

http://social.biowar...709/830#8703853

Specific post linked to. Done. And I think being specific with our concerns is most effective. "We want more screentime" can easily be read as sour grapes, as opposed to saying that we think a specific plot thread is being neglected. Even within space constraints "More about Miranda and Cerberus" is more helpful than "more Miranda."


I might be a bit cynical, but i believe it would be more affecting to a dev from Bioware to fear from negative advertising, or maybe even a fanbase diminishing (based on even "sour grapes" as you say), than the creative and objective critic that would perhaps raise the quality of his work.

#20742
flemm

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Well, obviously, there's an emotional component to this. No point in trying to hide it.

#20743
alxboss78

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wright1978 wrote...

Seem to be making a good start.

Now we just need someone bombard Bioware with Subway's in true 'Chuck' protest style!


Exactly!! Sheer number and dedication (unfortunately) beats subtlety and quality-oriented critiques...

#20744
MsSihaKatieKrios

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jtav wrote...
Done. And I think being specific with our concerns is most effective. "We want more screentime" can easily be read as sour grapes, as opposed to saying that we think a specific plot thread is being neglected. Even within space constraints "More about Miranda and Cerberus" is more helpful than "more Miranda."


I think that your idea would backfire quite badly. They can simply fulfil the 'more about Miranda and Cerberus' into nothing more than a chain of emails. As you said, be specific, so it would be better to slam the table and say 'I want more screentime for Miranda.', which can't reasonably be construed as 'sour grapes'.  Also, Bioware is deathly afraid of negative publicity (as proven by the FoxNews fiasco back in 07), and if just a quarter of us get dissatisfied, they'd have a PR and marketing crisis on their hands as we can run wild and spread the boycott of ME3 amongst the internet, thus dissuading quite a few potential new players from buying ME3 when it ships, resulting in significantly reduced income for them.

#20745
Ieldra

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alxboss78 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Seem to be making a good start.

Now we just need someone bombard Bioware with Subway's in true 'Chuck' protest style!


Exactly!! Sheer number and dedication (unfortunately) beats subtlety and quality-oriented critiques...

I will not take part in anything that could come across as harassing and spamming. 

#20746
Prudii Aden

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Shortened version of the link to Ieldra's post - http://bit.ly/vU9z6I

#20747
JosephDucreux

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Ieldra2 wrote...

@JosephDucreux, enyasoul:
All right. Suggest something better: what kind of death would make you cry and really hate the one responsible? A simple shot doesn't cut it.

Even more: what scenario can you imagine for Miranda's death, that's just so dramatically appropriate that you'd play it once just to see it, even knowing it will make you cry? Don't change who's responsible (and don't mention by name unless in "invisible text").

The version in the leaked material is not bad, there's just no point to the painful part.


Miranda bleeding out after a fatal stab by the aggressor would be even more painful than the nanites. You can literally see the life draining out from her as she struggles to tell you everything she knows about Cerberus/Reapers and just before she dies (depending on romance), she tells you that she loves you and would've gladly married you before advising you to 'carry on life' without her before passing away.

jtav's scenario falls flat mainly due to the fact that most players wouldn't get the irony at all. What we're going for here is mass impact and shock and awe, not appealing to someone's sense of irony.

#20748
wright1978

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JosephDucreux wrote...

Miranda bleeding out after a fatal stab by the aggressor would be even more painful than the nanites. You can literally see the life draining out from her as she struggles to tell you everything she knows about Cerberus/Reapers and just before she dies (depending on romance), she tells you that she loves you and would've gladly married you before advising you to 'carry on life' without her before passing away.

jtav's scenario falls flat mainly due to the fact that most players wouldn't get the irony at all. What we're going for here is mass impact and shock and awe, not appealing to someone's sense of irony.


Have to say i detest drawn out death scenes. Give me a Wash from Serenity harpoon through the chest moment anyday

#20749
Ieldra

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JosephDucreux wrote...
jtav's scenario falls flat mainly due to the fact that most players wouldn't get the irony at all. What we're going for here is mass impact and shock and awe, not appealing to someone's sense of irony.

You think the nanite scenario would have no emotional impact? I very much doubt that. Fewer people would get the irony, but what's to "get" about having to kill her to prevent her from transforming into a monster? Everybody gets that!

@all:
OK, Message with link tweeted to Mac Walters.

#20750
alxboss78

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Ieldra2 wrote...

alxboss78 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Seem to be making a good start.

Now we just need someone bombard Bioware with Subway's in true 'Chuck' protest style!


Exactly!! Sheer number and dedication (unfortunately) beats subtlety and quality-oriented critiques...

I will not take part in anything that could come across as harassing and spamming. 

No one said anything like that! I hate spamming and harassing! And what Chuck fans did with Subway back then, was anything but spamming or harassing.