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[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

jtav wrote...

Crutch: I don't want kids and I don't want the tech viable. Two motives for the same end: namely I don't want kids in my romance with her. Other people can do what they like as long as I don't have to see it. It's on;y that BW has done "one size fits all" epilogues and had the hero settle down regardless. Not me.

Well then, the question becomes "is the tech not being universally viable going to stop them from having kids?" and the predominant answer would probably be "no." I'm fine with you endorsing these as separate ideas but I'm just not sure they're co-dependent.

It's not meant to appear co-dependent I guess. In fact, I also don't want children to appear in the romance - just leave that to my imagination, but I do want the technology that created Miranda to be viable. For me, the motivation of Miranda's father in creating her genome - that mysterious genetic dynasty thing we've yet to learn more about - and the way he never treated her as a human being, those are the defining ethical problems. If you use the technology to benefit all humanity, it ceases to be a problem and becomes an asset instead. I dislike how some political ideologies have tainted this issue in the minds of most people.

There's a decided lack of Miranda pictures on the previous page. Let's start this one with....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 novembre 2011 - 06:49 .

[Ieldra]

Here's some after-the-war dialogue between Ashley and Miranda - friendly, no less, LOL. I don't think I've gotten Ashley's speech pattern right, but I'll post it nonetheless:

Ashley: You know, I'd kill to have what you have.
Miranda: That's funny.
Ashley: What? You know how hard it is to stay in shape when there's no war on? Takes me several hours a day. And you can just sit it out with your superior genes. Almost makes me wish there's a war on somewhere.
Miranda: Oh, I understand that part. What's funny is that I was just thinking the same thing.
Ashley: Don't tell me you want my hair, too. I'm hearing that several times a day.
Miranda: An intact family?
Ashley: Ah...sorry. Didn't think about that.
Miranda: No matter, it's an old wound. Besides, you may not be able to get it, but if my research pans out, I might be able to do something for your children.
Ashley: You're going into genetics research? After all your father did?
Miranda: In fact, I'd give it to you on a promise.
Ashley: Now I'm curious.
Miranda (smiles): That you love your children. Won't be a problem I guess.
Ashley: Ah....I get it. Strange, that. Impossible to imagine growing up like you. Alien. Me and my sisters, we might have thrown knives at each other at the age of ten, but in the end we've always stuck together. It's just normal.
Miranda: That's what I want for Oriana. Whether she wants it, we'll see.

[CrutchCricket]

For some reason I got a "Shepard is dead' vibe from that. Don't know why. Good dialogue though.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Good dialogue though.

Agreed.

Mulling over ME2 in my mind, I'm thinking that Ieldra may be right about fans not really reacting to Miranda the way the writers expected, where her enhancements are concerned, and probably the whole Cerberus connection as well. If so, I guess we'll find out how flexible they're willing to be in ME3.

Modifié par flemm, 16 novembre 2011 - 09:04 .

[Vertigo_1]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's some after-the-war dialogue between Ashley and Miranda - friendly, no less, LOL. I don't think I've gotten Ashley's speech pattern right, but I'll post it nonetheless:

*awesome banter*

Wow, that's very well done!
Hope there's more of that in the game (don't tell me...trying to stay out of spoiler territory)

Wait that's from the leak right?

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 16 novembre 2011 - 09:28 .

[enayasoul]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@JosephDucreux, enyasoul:
All right. Suggest something better: what kind of death would make you cry and really hate the one responsible? A simple shot doesn't cut it.

Even more: what scenario can you imagine for Miranda's death, that's just so dramatically appropriate that you'd play it once just to see it, even knowing it will make you cry? Don't change who's responsible (and don't mention by name unless in "invisible text").

The version in the leaked material is not bad, there's just no point to the painful part.

To avoid stating anything spoilerish... what I read from other peoples post... I did not like it at all.  I didn't like the violence aspect of him hurting her in any shape or form.  It did make me angry but that's just me. I hate violence, period.  It's hard for me to be mean in anything I've written.   So yeah it did make me want to cry because I care way to much for this fictional character.  

[flemm]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
Wow, that's very well done!
Hope there's more of that in the game (don't tell me...trying to stay out of spoiler territory)

Wait that's from the leak right?

No, lol, unless Ieldra has suddenly developed a very odd sense of humor.

We're being more careful about spoilers than that :happy:

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Mulling over ME2 in my mind, I'm thinking that Ieldra may be right about fans not really reacting to Miranda the way the writers expected, where her enhancements are concerned, and probably the whole Cerberus connection as well. If so, I guess we'll find out how flexible they're willing to be in ME3.

I guess I'm having a hard time picturing what the writers expected...

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
I guess I'm having a hard time picturing what the writers expected...

Well, on the Cerberus thing, that she's won over by the hero, basically, and ends up on the right side. And, where the enchancements are concerned, that she's really just normal like everybody else in spite of that. Whereas a lot of fans like the moral ambiguity and independance of the character and want her to embrace her enhancements and origins.

It's obviously not as clear-cut, either for the writers or the fans, as I'm suggesting there in my pithy three-line summary. But that's the type of thing I was referring to. (People like Miranda for a lot of different reasons, of course. And  probably the writers intentionally left some room for ambiguity there.)

Modifié par flemm, 16 novembre 2011 - 09:53 .

[enayasoul]

Interesting flemm, couldn't all three of those issues be stated? I don't see anything wrong with Shepard winning her over, and Miranda ending up on the right side. She can also have moral ambiguity and be independent, doing her own thing. I think that is evident in what I've read from posts. Miranda can either embrace who she is and believe in herself doing great things not because of the gifts she has. I think Shepard said that in Me2. I think she has to believe in herself as something more than a tool to be used by others. She is someone who does something great because she wants it.

Modifié par enayasoul, 16 novembre 2011 - 10:13 .

[jtav]

I think it's semi-intentional ambiguity. A RenShep is closer to "I like you because you're exceptional" and reinforces her then-current beliefs about Cerberus. I think they punted the ambiguity issue by doing what they did to Cerberus. Miranda from any point in the game must resign or be branded a monster, just as she must do what she does in ME3. There's a conversation missing that would clear this up, but i think they're aware thar her fans are all over the P/R spectrum.

[flemm]

enayasoul wrote...

Interesting flemm, couldn't all three of those issues be stated?

I think they could, yeah. They're not necessarily mutually exclusive at all. I just wonder if Ieldra is perhaps right that the overall emphasis isn't quite where the writers thought it would be.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Mulling over ME2 in my mind, I'm thinking that Ieldra may be right about fans not really reacting to Miranda the way the writers expected, where her enhancements are concerned, and probably the whole Cerberus connection as well. If so, I guess we'll find out how flexible they're willing to be in ME3.

They have shown themselved to be somewhat flexible in Miranda's Renegade romance. Let's hope for the best.

As for how this was planned - if you read the art book of ME2, read some leaked internal files of ME2 and come across certain keywords in the newer leak, it's quite obvious they intended Cerberus as some kind of N*zi racial supremacism metaphor, with Miranda's father's agenda tied directly in, giving it a genetic angle. The problem is they never came clear about it so the evil seemed just pointless, resulting in certain scenes coming across as heavy-handed moralism which people hate. In a weird twist of perception, Cerberus was now perceived as the victim of the writers. And people sympathize with the underdog. 

As for the genetic angle, we never came to hear exactly what Miranda's father wanted, only this vague hint at a genetic dynasty that wasn't enough to put the "evil" label on his agenda though his methods certainly qualify. Also fortunately many players here are too rational about it to judge Miranda's genetic enhancements solely by their connection to a possible racial supremacism agenda. A technology is not invalidated by being used for an evil cause.

To add to all this, it was always patently obvious in ME2 that Shepard was somewhat superhuman. and if we wanted Shepard's LI to be his equal, we'd need another one of this kind. A genetically enhanced woman was just what Shepard needed. From day one of ME2 to this day I felt that Miranda is the most fitting companion for Shepard.

flemm wrote...
Well, on the Cerberus thing, that she's won over by the hero, basically, and ends up on the right side. And, where the enchancements are concerned, that she's really just normal like everybody else in spite of that. Whereas a lot of fans like the moral ambiguity and independance of the character and want her to embrace her enhancements and origins.

I think there is a combination of two things that made fans appreciate her enhancements:
(1) They were, very, very, obviously, desirable enhancements. There was absolutely nothing in them regular humans wouldn't want for their children. Perhaps not at the price Miranda paid in emotional pain, but that always came across as avoidable. It is easy to imagine a happy family with genetically enhanced children whose members are not political extremists, but who just want, like all humans want, a better future for their children.
(2) The fact that, as I mentioned, a technology is not invalidated by being used for an evil cause. Many people in our culture intuitively get that.
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 novembre 2011 - 10:28 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
Miranda from any point in the game must resign or be branded a monster, just as she must do what she does in ME3. There's a conversation missing that would clear this up, but i think they're aware thar her fans are all over the P/R spectrum.

Agreed, but that's coming from a slightly different perspective. Admittedly, the writers probably knew this was going to happen, as Ieldra points out. But, think back to all the debates about the CB and such. A lot of people were perfectly happy she resigned, of course, but a lot of vocal fans really weren't.

Modifié par flemm, 16 novembre 2011 - 10:24 .

[Emperor Muad-Dib]

I generally don't make a habit of posting on the forums, but I like to be aware of info. I can't seem to find the script this all comes from, the one I saw hardly makes any mention of Miranda at all. Assuming its not against the forum rules, could someone pm me where this all comes from so I can see it firsthand and make up my own mind?

Also, not particularly pleased to hear Miranda has minimal involvement. I might just stick with Skyrim when ME3 comes out. Hopefully that will change.


Thanks.

[GuitarShredUK]

Emperor Muad-Dib wrote...

I generally don't make a habit of posting on the forums, but I like to be aware of info. I can't seem to find the script this all comes from, the one I saw hardly makes any mention of Miranda at all. Assuming its not against the forum rules, could someone pm me where this all comes from so I can see it firsthand and make up my own mind?

Also, not particularly pleased to hear Miranda has minimal involvement. I might just stick with Skyrim when ME3 comes out. Hopefully that will change.


Thanks.

There is a spoiler thread/group available - ask Ieldra for the link. Miranda certainly isn't mentioned too much in the leaks, but what is there is pretty significant.  

[jtav]

As far as I know, I'm the only conservative here. Even I think the results of the enhancements are good, because beauty, intelligence, and strength are good. She should continue to do the extraordinary because she can but with the understanding that her worth is intrinsic. If I were writing the epilogue, I'd have her become one of the most brilliant minds the Alliance has ever known. No longer miserable or constrained by Cerberus ideology, she rises to new heights. Lazarus saved one man. Now, her work saves millions.

[flemm]

Emperor Muad-Dib wrote...

I generally don't make a habit of posting on the forums, but I like to be aware of info. I can't seem to find the script this all comes from, the one I saw hardly makes any mention of Miranda at all. Assuming its not against the forum rules, could someone pm me where this all comes from so I can see it firsthand and make up my own mind?

Well, the script is not easily readable, as it is pulled from the files of a beta leak and takes a lot of time to sift through. An easier way to get yourself up to date would be to join the Miranda spoiler group, where we've been discussing a lot of the details (and where you can read chunks of the script).

If you really want to mull the leaked files over, I'm sure someone will send them to you. It's slow work, though.

Overall, there's some good stuff there, but screentime appears to be extremely limited. We're hoping for more in the finished product.

Anyone on twitter shouldn't hesitate to drop Casey Hudson and/or Mac Walters a line asking for more Miranda in ME3, by the way. Apparently they're looking for feedback on the leak, so it can't hurt.

Modifié par flemm, 16 novembre 2011 - 10:41 .

[Ieldra]

enayasoul wrote...
Interesting flemm, couldn't all three of those issues be stated? I don't see anything wrong with Shepard winning her over, and Miranda ending up on the right side. She can also have moral ambiguity and be independent, doing her own thing. I think that is evident in what I've read from posts. Miranda can either embrace who she is and believe in herself doing great things not because of the gifts she has. I think Shepard said that in Me2. I think she has to believe in herself as something more than a tool to be used by others. She is someone who does something great because she wants it.

The way Cerberus is presented in ME3, Miranda can only end up on the right side. And still retain her moral ambuity. I find that somewhat reassuring. 

I believe that it is reasonable for a woman with a strong intellect like Miranda to eventually embrace her gifts as part of herself. After all, they enabled her to do great things, and it's still she who did them, not her father. They do not define her worth, but still she would not be who she is without them. As of ME2, she perceives her gifts - and thus herself in part - to be owned by her father. By taking ownership of them she would assert her self-worth. By disowning them she would disown everything good she has done with them.  

[enayasoul]

jtav wrote...

As far as I know, I'm the only conservative here. Even I think the results of the enhancements are good, because beauty, intelligence, and strength are good. She should continue to do the extraordinary because she can but with the understanding that her worth is intrinsic. If I were writing the epilogue, I'd have her become one of the most brilliant minds the Alliance has ever known. No longer miserable or constrained by Cerberus ideology, she rises to new heights. Lazarus saved one man. Now, her work saves millions.

Wouldn't that be something!  I like this notion!

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
As far as I know, I'm the only conservative here. Even I think the results of the enhancements are good, because beauty, intelligence, and strength are good. She should continue to do the extraordinary because she can but with the understanding that her worth is intrinsic. If I were writing the epilogue, I'd have her become one of the most brilliant minds the Alliance has ever known. No longer miserable or constrained by Cerberus ideology, she rises to new heights. Lazarus saved one man. Now, her work saves millions.

I wouldn't be averse to an epilogue like that. Not at all.

The only addition I'd make is to have her pass on her enhancements in some way. But there is possibly where we would disagree.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 novembre 2011 - 10:43 .

[jtav]

I think we may very well get an epilogue like that. More in group.

[Emperor Muad-Dib]

GuitarShredUK wrote...

Emperor Muad-Dib wrote...

I generally don't make a habit of posting on the forums, but I like to be aware of info. I can't seem to find the script this all comes from, the one I saw hardly makes any mention of Miranda at all. Assuming its not against the forum rules, could someone pm me where this all comes from so I can see it firsthand and make up my own mind?

Also, not particularly pleased to hear Miranda has minimal involvement. I might just stick with Skyrim when ME3 comes out. Hopefully that will change.


Thanks.

There is a spoiler thread/group available - ask Ieldra for the link. Miranda certainly isn't mentioned too much in the leaks, but what is there is pretty significant.  

Thanks, will do.

flemm wrote...

Emperor Muad-Dib wrote...

I generally don't make a habit of posting on the forums, but I like to be aware of info. I can't seem to find the script this all comes from, the one I saw hardly makes any mention of Miranda at all. Assuming its not against the forum rules, could someone pm me where this all comes from so I can see it firsthand and make up my own mind?

Well, the script is not easily readable, as it is pulled from the files of a beta leak and takes a lot of time to sift through. An easier way to get yourself up to date would be to join the Miranda spoiler group, where we've been discussing a lot of the details (and where you can read chunks of the script).

If you really want to mull the leaked files over, I'm sure someone will send them to you. It's slow work, though.

Overall, there's some good stuff there, but screentime appears to be extremely limited. We're hoping for more in the finished product.

Anyone on twitter shouldn't hesitate to drop Casey Hudson and/or Mac Walters a line asking for more Miranda in ME3, by the way. Apparently they're looking for feedback on the leak, so it can't hurt.

If that's the case, then perhaps what I saw was in fact all there is too see, I just wasn't all that impressed. Perhaps I missed something since honestly all I did was a search for keywords through the doc.

[flemm]

Emperor Muad-Dib wrote...

If that's the case, then perhaps what I saw was in fact all there is too see, I just wasn't all that impressed.

Well, the reality is there isn't much there. You probably missed a couple of things on your first pass through the files (I know I did), but basically she's featured in one mission, that's it. You talk with her a couple of times before, and maybe again at the very end of the game (it's unclear).

We're trying to keep our hopes up for more, but no one's really sure why she was side-lined to this extent.

Modifié par flemm, 16 novembre 2011 - 11:52 .

[jtav]

Not that I'm expecting an answer, but I now want to know how Miranda tuned out as decent a human being as she is and how she managed to rise so high in Cerberus.