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[Emperor Muad-Dib]

flemm wrote...

Emperor Muad-Dib wrote...

If that's the case, then perhaps what I saw was in fact all there is too see, I just wasn't all that impressed.

Well, the reality is there isn't much there. You probably missed a couple of things on your first pass through the files (I know I did), but basically she's featured in one mission, that's it. You talk with her a couple of times before, and maybe again at the very end of the game (it's unclear).

We're trying to keep our hopes up for more, but no one's really sure why she was side-lined to this extent.

I probably did miss a few things. I just searched for "miranda" and "Kai Leng", so if there wasnt a hit in the vicinity of a spoiler about her, I missed it. I still don't see where some of these other facts are coming from, like about what happens to her and so forth. At some point I'll have to really read the thing to see if I missed it.

As far as her involvement goes, I can't say I'm honestly all that surprised. It seemed fairly clear to me they were focused on the characters from the first game. I can understand why they might do that, but it still seems a little ill-advised. They stand to frustrate a lot of people who liked characters from the second game, which is exactly what seems to be happening.

I hate to be the depressing (or I would say realistic) one, but I don't foresee them really making any significant changes/increases to her (or any other characters') role based simply on the dissatisfaction shown here. I think based on the fact that people kept pestering them months ago about her, you'd think they realize she's fairly well-liked. I'll probably honestly just save the 60$, and I'm fairly certain I won't be pre-ordering it. I'm sure it will be an amazing game, but I'm just not seeing myself being that invested in it with the latest revelations.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Not that I'm expecting an answer, but I now want to know how Miranda tuned out as decent a human being as she is and how she managed to rise so high in Cerberus.

Well, I suppose realistically she probably wouldn't be such a decent human being and also have risen so high in Cerberus' command structure. She's not even xenopobic. But, the way the organisation was portrayed in ME2 left some more room for doubt. It is apparently structured in cells, so Miranda could plausibly be in the dark about certain things.

I notice that in the leaked files... *minor spoiler*


Miranda is actually referred to as Cerberus' former second-in-command, which I don't believe was explicitly stated even in ME2, that I can recall.

Modifié par flemm, 17 novembre 2011 - 01:35 .

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

Not that I'm expecting an answer, but I now want to know how Miranda tuned out as decent a human being as she is and how she managed to rise so high in Cerberus.

Considering that she's the first Cerberus agent we've met who's project actually succeeds rather than turning into a catastorphe worthy of Aperture Science. I can see why she's TIM's top agent.

Come to think of it other than the members of the Lazarus Cell, it seems that every other Cerberus agent is either a homicidal maniac, immoral scientist,  or has some major moral malfunction. I wonder where exactly TIM finds these people

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
I notice that in the leaked files... *minor spoiler*


Miranda is actually referred to as Cerberus' former second-in-command, which I don't believe was explicitly stated even in ME2, that I can recall.

If that's true, then it's even more important that Miranda's Cerberus story arc gets closure. We need some explanation why she stayed with them. Protecting her sister wouldn't make her stay for twenty years and be dedicated enough for such a role.

It would be nice if Cerberus had really started out with a believable agenda of protecting and advancing humanity, something akin to the STG. That would explain Miranda's long-term dedication and make it easier to relate to the Illusive Man as well. 

I wonder if it'll be possible to interpret the Illusive Man as a tragic figure - someone who got the knowledge about a mysterious menace hiding out in space somewhere, back in 2157 when he was touched by that artifact, and then desperately tried to find a means against it, all the while realizing that he was slowly losing his humanity and hurrying to complete his objective before the alien technology overcame him or the menace materialized.

And did Miranda know that her boss's backstory had something to do with the Reapers? If she knew that there was "something to protect humanity against", as the manifest puts it, that might also go a long way in explaining her decidation.

Here's again the request to put something like the conversation I posted on page 831 in (link). It's quite acceptable for both Paragons and Renegades I believe.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 novembre 2011 - 08:49 .

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

Not that I'm expecting an answer, but I now want to know how Miranda tuned out as decent a human being as she is and how she managed to rise so high in Cerberus.

I always get the feeling TIM gives extreme targets, little oversight & regulation and lots of money to his project managers. That way he has plausible deniability when they go wacky. Miranda, given she's so capable succeeded repeatedly imo. If the TIM wanted to keep her motivated he had to give her a feeling of responsibility which would also serve to keep her close enough to keep tabs on.

[Ieldra]

Hmm.....thinking about interactions of Miranda and Shepard again. I've noticed this half-teasing formality that creeps in when romantic tension is high and they call each other "Commander" and "Miss Lawson" where they didn't before.

I must smile every time I think of that (even now as I'm writing this, LOL). For some reason, that feels so absolutely appropriate for them, and I'm thinking about what this signifies about their relationship. Any ideas?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 novembre 2011 - 11:54 .

[Confused-Shepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

flemm wrote...
I notice that in the leaked files... *minor spoiler*


Miranda is actually referred to as Cerberus' former second-in-command, which I don't believe was explicitly stated even in ME2, that I can recall.

If that's true, then it's even more important that Miranda's Cerberus story arc gets closure. We need some explanation why she stayed with them. Protecting her sister wouldn't make her stay for twenty years and be dedicated enough for such a role.

It would be nice if Cerberus had really started out with a believable agenda of protecting and advancing humanity, something akin to the STG. That would explain Miranda's long-term dedication and make it easier to relate to the Illusive Man as well. 

I wonder if it'll be possible to interpret the Illusive Man as a tragic figure - someone who got the knowledge about a mysterious menace hiding out in space somewhere, back in 2157 when he was touched by that artifact, and then desperately tried to find a means against it, all the while realizing that he was slowly losing his humanity and hurrying to complete his objective before the alien technology overcame him or the menace materialized.

And did Miranda know that her boss's backstory had something to do with the Reapers? If she knew that there was "something to protect humanity against", as the manifest puts it, that might also go a long way in explaining her decidation.

Here's again the request to put something like the conversation I posted on page 831 in (link). It's quite acceptable for both Paragons and Renegades I believe.

THIS! This is what we should have got but instead ended up with a Disney villain twirling is mustache. 
There is not a hint of tragedy or humanity in the guy. He comes off as an arrogant ****** and treats everyone as expendable. What I wouldn't give for him to be given better charecterization. To the point I would love if you had to choose between killing TIM (with Miranda betraying you because she was loyal to Cerberus first and you second) and letting him go. Would have been interesting as Miranda's surrogate father. Should have been painted as a tragic figure who lost his mind...

But nope... MUAHHAHA! I HAVE BASE NOW! GO MY MINIONS! KILL SHEPARD! 

Conversely, Liara has too much fun killing governers and twisting galactic politics to her own ends.
We slap her out of it or end up killing her (Not enough Paragon).

Modifié par Confused-Shepard, 17 novembre 2011 - 12:10 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

[If that's true, then it's even more important that Miranda's Cerberus story arc gets closure. We need some explanation why she stayed with them. Protecting her sister wouldn't make her stay for twenty years and be dedicated enough for such a role.

Well, I agree, for what it's worth. Of course, it would be important regardless.

Modifié par flemm, 17 novembre 2011 - 12:17 .

[jtav]

Agreed. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. How does she feel about the betrayal? Any regrets? How did/does she understand human advancement? Not getting that would be nigh inexplicable, even more than not getting a romance scene

Like Ieldra, I find the teasing formality appropriate, though I have no insight into it.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Hmm.....thinking about interactions of Miranda and Shepard again. I've noticed this half-teasing formality that creeps in when romantic tension is high and they call each other "Commander" and "Miss Lawson" where they didn't before.

I must smile every time I think of that (even now as I'm writing this, LOL). For some reason, that feels so absolutely appropriate for them, and I'm thinking about what this signifies about their relationship. Any ideas?

Hmm. I don't know if this will make you like it less, but it looks more like Shepard's doing as he also does this with Tali if he romances her.

"Hurry up with that research Miss vas Normandy. Captain's orders." (or something like that)

So it does seem more like Shepard's tendency. And to be fair if you're in a relationship with a guy who only has a last name and rank (that you can say) your choices are more limited for what to call him in private. Actually I wonder if this topic's ever been discussed on these boards: in-game reasons for why no one uses Shepard's first name, even those close to him?

Confused-Shepard wrote...
THIS! This is what we should have got but instead ended up with a Disney villain twirling is mustache. 
There is not a hint of tragedy or humanity in the guy. He comes off as an arrogant ****** and treats everyone as expendable. What I wouldn't give for him to be given better charecterization.

Ugh... at the risk of opening a TIM can of worms... maybe he comes off that way... because he IS an arrogant ****** who thinks everyone's expendable? Seriously what's wrong with someone being a straight-up douchebag in fiction? Is there no middle ground between misunderstood well-intentioned extremist and moustache-twirling Disney villain? A dark pit in which the complete monsters have their get-together, just waiting for the hero to blunder in carelessy and be screwed over in as many ways as you're comfortable imagining? And who says such a dastardly fellow can't have characterization beyond the fine details of his well kept moustache?

In all seriousness though why is tragedy or humanity even necessary? You know what other great character was ruined by humanity and tragedy? Darth Vader. You know what other character had neither but still had depth and characterization and not a hint of moustache (or any hair on his head at all for that matter)? Darth Bane as portrayed by Drew Karpyshyn.

I see TIM and by extension his version of Cerberus as akin to the Sith, not "evil" as the simplistic portrayal makes it out to be and not as "something something dark side" obviously. But what I love about the way Darth Bane presents the Sith is that he absolutely believes that his way is the right and natural way of things. He's not doing it "for the evulz" or because "f*ck Jedi", he literally believes the Rule of Two is how the universe crumbles. And that's what I want to see in TIM. An absolute unshaken belief that his way is the right way that he got to willingly and as a result of his own reasoning and experiences. From this point of view, suggesting he's fallen is actually insulting. Unfortunately since "we're the good guys" and we oppose him, that lands him in villain territory. But it's the best kind of villain in my opinion and the most dangerous.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 17 novembre 2011 - 02:23 .

[Ieldra]

@CrutchCricket:
I brought this up because so many Cerberus experiments seem like *pointless* evil. Take Pragia. Or Akuze. It looks exactly like evil for the lulz, with almost any other imaginable setup being way more efficient *and* less morally repugnant. Only an idiot would take that route. But TIM is no idiot. So there's a contradiction here. Being in a desperate hurry would explain some of his actions.

Also I propose we put this at the end of every post in this thread:

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 novembre 2011 - 05:25 .

[flemm]

I'm more than willing to put this in bold at the end of every post I make... What befuddles me a bit is that it is so obvious to begin with. This definitely needs to be dealt with directly and in detail.

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. Details see here.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
@CrutchCricket:
I brought this up because so many Cerberus experiments seem like *pointless* evil. Take Pragia. Or Akuze. It looks exactly like evil for the lulz, with almost any other imaginable setup being way more efficient *and* less morally repugnant. Only an idiot would take that route. But TIM is no idiot. So there's a contradiction here. Being in a desperate hurry would explain some of his actions.

@all:
I propose we put this at the end of all our posts in this thread from now on:

I can accept "desperate hurry" as explanation for his failures not his motivations.

As for the the post I've gone ahead and done you one better: Sig'd!

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 17 novembre 2011 - 04:49 .

[Ieldra]

Need more pictures.



Also I changed the text a bit, just in case someone thinks its OK to fob us off with two more conversation options. It doesn't fit in a sig anymore, so whoever wants it there, shorten at your convenience:

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 novembre 2011 - 05:28 .

[Vertigo_1]

I noticed you guys are trying to get their attention for Miranda
Well:

twitter.com/#!/macwalterslives/status/136952534379143168
"How close to finishing writing are you guys? What do you do once you're done?"

"Very close (and yet so very far)... Dialog is wrapping up, but the non-VO text keeps marching on. After we're done? #SleepForAMonth"

Might want to tweet the link to your post (I've already done so)

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 17 novembre 2011 - 06:01 .

[CrutchCricket]

Attempting to play with formatting to make it fit...*Edit: still fits

In the meantime I'm seeing the edit as "she should be present at *spoiler*". Is that normal?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 17 novembre 2011 - 05:37 .

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Attempting to play with formatting to make it fit...*Edit: still fits

In the meantime I'm seeing the edit as "she should be present at *spoiler*". Is that normal?

Yes. I can't put the location in since that would be a spoiler. That's what the link is for.

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.

[Ieldra]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
I noticed you guys are trying to get their attention for Miranda
Well:

twitter.com/#!/macwalterslives/status/136952534379143168
"How close to finishing writing are you guys? What do you do once you're done?"

"Very close (and yet so very far)... Dialog is wrapping up, but the non-VO text keeps marching on. After we're done? #SleepForAMonth"

Might want to tweet the link to your post (I've already done so)

That's....strangely mixed news at this point. Usually I'd be excited. But as things are.....there is some trepidation. And yes, I already tweeted the link to my post after I wrote it. Would make no sense otherwise.

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.

[JeffZero]

twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/137229538999537664

CaseyHudson "No, I won't comment on reactions to the story leak. The team has moved beyond that version and is hard at work making #ME3 our best so far."

[Vertigo_1]

They've also moved past the version that got leaked:

twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/137229538999537664
"No, I won't comment on reactions to the story leak. The team has moved beyond that version and is hard at work making #ME3 our best so far."

How much though, we don't know

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 17 novembre 2011 - 06:09 .

[JeffZero]

Yeah, that's the million-dollar question.

[flemm]

JeffZero wrote...

Yeah, that's the million-dollar question.

Yep. While I've been encouraging everyone to tweet and everything, and have done so myself, the real hope where more Miranda stuff is concerned is that the script in the beta was from, say, late spring or thereabouts, and that more was added over the summer.

Modifié par flemm, 17 novembre 2011 - 06:14 .

[JeffZero]

Indeed.

Unfortunately I haven't quite brought myself to get fully acquainted with Miranda's situation in ME3 because I keep thinking about how it could spoil other matters as well. Thus, I haven't done much in the way of promoting the cause, but I am definitely going to send Mac a tweet or two reaffirming my appreciation for the character.

[Ieldra]

JeffZero wrote...
Unfortunately I haven't quite brought myself to get fully acquainted with Miranda's situation in ME3 because I keep thinking about how it could spoil other matters as well. Thus, I haven't done much in the way of promoting the cause, but I am definitely going to send Mac a tweet or two reaffirming my appreciation for the character.

If you want to know the specifics, join the Miranda in ME3 pre-release spoiler discussion group. And I'll also put my hope into the leaked version being old enough that what we think is necessary will be in the final version.

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 novembre 2011 - 06:42 .

[JeffZero]

Heh heh, I joined that group very recently and then I got cold feet -- I quickly realized things like, "oh gee, what if in discussing Miranda in ME3, someone goes on about someone or something else?" I really don't want to know anything more than her involvement in the game from a general perspective, but I definitely see that fans are not thrilled with the relative limitations of her presence.

You know what would be stellar, actually? If someone like you, Ieldra, could maybe send me a PM detailing Miranda's mission in some vague enough way that it doesn't spoil anything else. Is that, like, remotely possible? If not, I'll shut up.