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[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You want an argument? Here is one: the new info doesn't change the fact that Miranda's "betrayal" line is OOC. It was always clear that using the base in a way we suspected TIM would use it could be reasonably interpreted as a betrayal of humanity, but that's not what Miranda says. She says ".....using anything from this base seems like a betrayal." And that's plain stupid. Though I admit some foreshadowing using the term "betrayal" was appropriate in hindsight, it was not just poor phrasing, the meaning of the statement - if that's what it was intended to convey - was totally overturned

I've never really disagreed with the idea that it was awkwardly phrased. However, people phrase things awkwardly all the time. So, once one makes allowances for the context, I cannot concur that the line was OOC.

We know that Miranda had either already discussed the possibility of keeping the base with TIM, or had simply foreseen that he would probably want to do so. Therefore, it was always reasonable to infer that TIM/Cerberus using the base was Miranda's primary concern, i.e. she was not making a blanket statement, even though the phrase itself tends to come across that way. She was referencing the situation at hand.

Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*.

Modifié par flemm, 17 novembre 2011 - 09:36 .

[alperez]

I always felt the line was ooc only in the sense that there was something missing, a conversation or scene or something that needed to occur before we ever entered the CB.

To me in a complete paragon playthrough with spefic romance dialogue used the line almost makes complete sense, in that in seeing Shepard achieving things and in being in a relationship with the same Shepard it forces Miranda to question certain things regarding cerberus activities if not their goals, so when finally faced with the reality of what the base has been used for and potentially what TIM could use if for, the line is in character.

The problem though is that only works in a specific set of circumstances and even then it still lacks some extra piece of content to show why Miranda may feel this way, so you almost have to imagine it took place offscreen somewhere in order for it to actually work.

Then again i think a lot of setups in me2 are like this, Horizon being a prime example.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I think they were trying to be subtle with their foreshadowing at that point and completely screwed it up. Specifically saying that Cerberus couldn't be trusted would tip their hand too much, but you also can't get the likely intended meaning from the words themselves either. In retrospect, what she should have said was, "Are you sure that's such a good idea, sir?" and have TIM treat her very condescendingly.

Screwed up, yep. Making every squadmate tell you they disagree with your decision, that's really subtle. And Miranda's statement, I have no words. What could've been done is to exploit the difference between "study" and "use". I firmly believe Miranda would want to study the base, but the way TIM says "...turn their own weapons against them" is subtly suggestive. Only had Miranda made that point things would have been too obvious.

@flemm:
Best to include the link....

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 novembre 2011 - 10:37 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm what have you done??
I did say I missed the old arguments but I wonder if we've stirred up a storm again:?

Aw what the hell. Anything different at this point right?

I'm sticking by my guns. The base has nothing in it except a "make your own Reaper" kit and it could only be used for exactly what it says on the tin. Handing that to TIM now that she's finally seeing his true colors is a betrayal. Could it have been worded better? Sure. The words are clumsy but the idea is solid. The only thing the new info adds is validation.

Now on to other matters:

Ieldra2 wrote...
Here's a challenge that might actually be useful. Write up a scene where Miranda talks with Shepard on TIM's base. Why do you think she stayed with Cerberus? I'll post a revision of my own version some time later (getting late here again).

I know I did something like this earlier as well. Should I just repost that? And are we to assume from the underlined part that she's supposed to stay with Cerberus in this scene? How would that even work?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 17 novembre 2011 - 10:13 .

[jtav]

At this point, I welcome a good argument. Beats the black cloud we've all been under.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
And are we to assume from the underlined part that she's supposed to stay with Cerberus in this scene? How would that even work?

I think it means more, why did she stay with Cerberus all those years in the first place? What was she hoping to accomplish? How have her views changed?

I'm going to try to come up with my own version a bit later when I'm back home, sounds like fun. If we're going to be taking refuge in fanfic starting in March, I guess we might as well get a headstart lol.

Oh and...


Miranda's Cerberus arc needs closure. (It really does )

Modifié par flemm, 17 novembre 2011 - 10:29 .

[jtav]

I want to do a fanfic using some stuff from the leak. I have a rather nice idea for a romantic, tearful reunion, but I feel rather foolish writing it when the game isn't even out yet.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
I know I did something like this earlier as well. Should I just repost that? And are we to assume from the underlined part that she's supposed to stay with Cerberus in this scene? How would that even work?

No. Like in my scene on page 831 where she's remembering why she stayed with them all those years and asks herself if TIM was really once different or if she was duped from the start.

And you posted something like that? Don't recall it......so yep, if applicable, please repost.

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 novembre 2011 - 10:37 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I want to do a fanfic using some stuff from the leak. I have a rather nice idea for a romantic, tearful reunion, but I feel rather foolish writing it when the game isn't even out yet.

Do it.

Beats discussions that could only look like this: suppose you did *spoiler* at *spoiler*: What do you think Miranda would've done had she known that *spoiler* killed *spoiler* there.

[flemm]

Well, here's a little something I scrawled out on a napkin... Don't really remember if we know what Miranda's age is supposed to be when she starts working at Cerberus, but whatever.

Miranda: Standing here, justing wanting to blow this base to hell… I can hardly remember what it felt like when I first walked in here.
Shepard: How old were you?
Miranda: Just turned twenty-three. I’d already been an agent of Cerberus for years. And it wasn’t here, not really. But it looked pretty much the same. I was so naïve back then… still just a child.
Shepard: You believed in him.
Miranda: Yes. But not just in him. I was so sure, so focused. Finally free of my father, with a purpose... and not the one I was designed for. Can you imagine how good that felt?
Shepard: Maybe. I remember taking the Normandy out of dock for the first time as Commander. The feeling of giving those orders, it’s stayed with me ever since.
Miranda: Yeah, that’s pretty much it. All those lies TIM told me… I must have walked in here a dozen times demanding answers. But I didn’t really want to know the truth, not back then.
Shepard: You’re a good person who made a mistake.
Miranda: *laughs* You know me better than that, Shepard. I believed him because I wanted to be a part of Cerberus. I hated who I was, but I loved doing my job. Does that make sense?
Shepard: So, you would do it all again?
Miranda: Yes. Everything except the part where I left him in charge.

Modifié par flemm, 18 novembre 2011 - 12:24 .

[jtav]

I just committed the ultimate act of sentimentality. I changed Shep's bonus power to Slam. So going to regret it come Arrival.

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...

I just committed the ultimate act of sentimentality. I changed Shep's bonus power to Slam. So going to regret it come Arrival.

Why? It's fun using it in the end sequence and watching the enemies fly awaaayy...

[Skullheart]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

jtav wrote...

I just committed the ultimate act of sentimentality. I changed Shep's bonus power to Slam. So going to regret it come Arrival.

Why? It's fun using it in the end sequence and watching the enemies fly awaaayy...

I was about to say the same. Slam is great for LotSB and Arrival, a lot better than lift and singularity.

[Dr. Doctor]

Nothing is more fun than having Shepard and Miranda slam a target in quick succession:

Miranda: Really, Shepard?

Shepard: What?

Miranda: Every time I use my biotics to slam an enemy you follow up with the exact same thing.

Shepard: Maybe I like my enemies shaken, not stirred.

Miranda: (rolls eyes) Even by your standards that was horrible.

[Ieldra]

@Dr.Doctor:
Hehe.... I believe that was a reasonable approximation of some of Shepard's lines in ME2. I rarely use Slam though.

@flemm:
My usual estimation is this: if Miranda took Oriana away when she was a small child, as she told us in her LM, and Oriana is 19 in ME2 and Miranda 35, then Miranda was around 17 when she took her away and joined Cerberus. She also says the Illusive Man recruited her, so she knew him right from the start.

It would be interesting to speculate about the history of her relationship with him. Almost twenty years, that's a long time, and even though I don't get "lover" or "friendship" vibes from it, in a way they must've been close.

And picture time.



-----------------------

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 novembre 2011 - 08:37 .

[JosephDucreux]

 If Shepard has the kind of infantryman humor I possess, this will probably happen:

*Both Shepard and Miranda slam the same target at the same time for the 10th time*

Miranda: For crying out loud Shepard! Will you stop imitating me?!

Shepard *mimicks Miranda's voice*: For crying out loud Shepard! Will you stop imitating me?

Miranda *exasperated*: Why did I even fall in love with you?!

Shepard *mimicking Miranda*: Why did I even fall in love with you, you handsome, intelligent hunk of a demigod!

Miranda*completely exasperated*: You're such a child! I-you...you're impossibly hard!!

Shepard: That's what she said!

Modifié par JosephDucreux, 18 novembre 2011 - 07:00 .

[Beard_of_Bees]

Why did she stay at Cerberus? Not sure. But it could depend on what TIM selectively allowed her to see. My Sheppard in ME1 thought Cerberus were monsters. Then you get on the ship and everyone in this supposedly evil organisation is super-nice, motivated by a desire to protect their loved ones, and willing to risk their lives to stop the threat when no one else will even listen. So both me as a player and Sheppard as a character think Cerberus are not that bad, and I find myself agreeing with Miranda that the awful experiments were "not really Cerberus".

I often wondered if the crew were so good because (i) BW wanted to give you likeable allies or (ii) TIM hand-picked them because he knew Sheppard would be more likely to join in the mission if their were people he could identify with.

Even with Miranda's position she would not have full knowledge of all operatives and missions, so TIM could have selectively shown her what she wanted to see.

Worked for me, I even saved the CB (d'oh!).

-----------------------

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
She also says the Illusive Man recruited her, so she knew him right from the start.

It would surprise me if she met him in person right at the beginning, though. That seems to be unusual and reserved for trusted operatives. Even Shepard only speaks to him remotely. So, from that point of view, I think it would make sense that the first meeting in-person would happen some years after her actual recruitment (which TIM would have handled "personally," as with Shepard, but not in-person).

Ieldra2 wrote...
It would be interesting to speculate about the history of her relationship with him. Almost twenty years, that's a long time, and even though I don't get "lover" or "friendship" vibes from it, in a way they must've been close.

Some combination of mentor, inspirational leader and surrogate father, I would think. It's a different kind of close than lover or friend. Not even sure it would be accurate to describe it as "close" exactly, but important.

Modifié par flemm, 18 novembre 2011 - 02:44 .

[alperez]

Beard_of_Bees

On a previous thread during an intense argument about cerberus i posted pretty much the same scenario that you suggest above (although that was in relation more to cerberus and Shepard and cerberus operatives in general).

But given what we know about how TIM works and the makeup of cerberus in general and listening to Miranda's explantions regarding some of cerberus's worst activities it makes sense that even with her high ranking role she still wasn't completely aware of every single activity that cerberus were involved in.

Personally i always felt that TIM restricted access to the worst of it from certain people, instead playing on whatever it was that initially attracted them to cerberus in the first place, so if Miranda was someone who wished to put Humanity first but was a bit squeamish about certain things then TIM would only show her the better things that cerberus were up to, keeping the worst away from her and then being able to blow it off as rogue op's.

Which is why i kinda got her feelings during the CB as being more in character than some did, working with Shepard and seeing first hand just what lengths people would go to and what lengths TIM might, force her to rethink not her views but whether or not they're best served by cerberus.

Also the crew thing makes perfect sense imo, if you were trying to win Shepard's heart and mind then putting Kai leng (supposedly a top operative in cerberus) on the crew wouldn't be the way to go, so instead you fill the crew with either people who are lowly enough in the organisation that they're unaware of the true nature of it, or more reasonable people in order to portray cerberus in the best light.

[alperez]

flemm

I think TIm recruited her personally, pretty much the same with Kai Leng, i mean afterall she rose to number 2 pretty much (try not to picture austin powers in your mind when you say that lol).

I always got the impression that the reason certain people rose in cerberus was because TIM had taken a personal interest in them allied to their own abilities as well, but to me it always seemed likely that only the most trusted would rise to a certain level (bearing in mind TIM probably only trusts so far).

So for some reason i got the impression that he actually recruited her in person, its only after the organisation has grown so much and his own position becomes a little more unsafe (by outside forces) that he kinda closes himself off to people imo.

As for Shepard, unlike Miranda and definetely Kai Leng, Shepard is more of an unknown variable so TIM's own paranoia (he's paranoid in my head canon) would force the meeting under different circumstances.

[flemm]

alperez wrote...
So for some reason i got the impression that he actually recruited her in person, its only after the organisation has grown so much and his own position becomes a little more unsafe (by outside forces) that he kinda closes himself off to people imo.

Yeah, that could be. His methods may have evolved over time, as the organisation grew and became more notorious.

[Ieldra]

Beard_of_Bees wrote...
Even with Miranda's position she would not have full knowledge of all operatives and missions, so TIM could have selectively shown her what she wanted to see.

That's certainly part of it. But there's working for someone, and there's enough dedication to rise to a high position. You won't usually do the latter unless you believe in what you're working for. I'd like to know her motivations for doing this kind of work for so many years.  "Advancement of humanity" is such a vague term, it can cover science and technology, social structure, economy and politics, mean transhumanism as well as diehard species supremacism and  a few other things. What is it for her?

I don't think ME3 will give a definitive answer. They wouldn't want to fix her character that much, narrowing wiggle room for interpretation by players. But some insight into how Miranda thinks of all that is only reasonable to expect.  

At this point I'm also wondering if Miranda knew that TIM set himself up to protect humanity against what would turn out to be the Reapers, i.e. that nameless menace Jack Harper made contact with in ME:Evolution.
 

Worked for me, I even saved the CB (d'oh!).

I almost always did, and would still do. At that point you need the knowledge contained in the base. I'm still holding some hope that some good will come of it along with the inevitable bad stuff.

@alperez:
I agree with most of what you said. Except with the part about the CB (of course:lol:). But you can be sure people will interpret her in a much darker light after her retroactive promotion comes to light. If they'll keep it.

-----------------------------

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 novembre 2011 - 03:22 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

alperez wrote...
So for some reason i got the impression that he actually recruited her in person, its only after the organisation has grown so much and his own position becomes a little more unsafe (by outside forces) that he kinda closes himself off to people imo.

Yeah, that could be. His methods may have evolved over time, as the organisation grew and became more notorious.

I was initially thinking that his ruthlessness and disregard for the fallout of his operations might have increased over time as well, and that he hadn't crossed the moral event horizon back then. Unfortunately, the timeline appears to disprove that. According to the SB's files, the facility on Pragia was constructed in 2160, and Jack's apparent age suggests that she must've been there in the 2160s. Miranda can have joined in 2166 at the earliest.


-----------------------

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 novembre 2011 - 03:29 .

[alperez]

Ieldra

You saved the base i assume?

[Ieldra]

alperez wrote...
You saved the base i assume?

Yes. In all my playthroughs except the "for science" run where I did things I wouldn't otherwise do just to be different. I admit I'm tempted to change that for certain Shepards now that Cerberus as one of the big enemies is revealed. But I need a convincing reason to destroy the base and I haven't found one yet that balances "we need to know more about the Reapers".

Here's why I think Miranda would save the base: Of course it's morally problematic to give TIM the base. It's absolutely OK to be horrified by the thing. In any other situation than a war for survival against a technologically superior enemy we have no idea how to defeat, and whose factory this is, I'd destroy it if the only alternative was to give it to TIM. But we do have such a war, and Miranda knows the value of knowledge. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 novembre 2011 - 03:42 .