I just couldn't save the base, the choice became too personal for me so i lost all objectivity and no matter how many times i've replayed it i still can't make a different choice, no matter what type of shepard i try to roleplay i always blow it up for personal reasons.
"I'll always want you in my life." Miranda Lawson in Mass Effect 3
Débuté par
jtav
, juin 13 2011 05:39
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#20902
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 03:52
Ieldra
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Personal? Do you mind if I ask why?alperez wrote...
I just couldn't save the base, the choice became too personal for me so i lost all objectivity and no matter how many times i've replayed it i still can't make a different choice, no matter what type of shepard i try to roleplay i always blow it up for personal reasons.
I admit, in a way it was personal for me, too. The choice was presented in form of a false moral reasoning - according to Paragon Shepard, you destroy the base for what was done there. But technology is not invalidated by being used for an evil cause, and I have a passionate dislike for any philosophy or ideology that says otherwise. Apart from that, I spent my whole first game with the expectation that we would get our hands on some functional Reaper technology to study.
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@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 novembre 2011 - 03:53 .
#20903
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 03:58
jtav
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I've changed my mind. Cerberus is just too monstrous. I cannot in good conscience give them the base. I agree that ParagonShep's stated reasoning is crap, but I'll sleep better with it gone.
#20904
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 04:11
Skullheart
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I bet that half of the people that destroyed the base did it just to ****** off TIM.
In half of my playthorughs I saved the base- Same logic as Maelon's cure. If I destroyed the base, all the suffering of the victims will be for nothing, keeping the base might save billions.
In half of my playthorughs I saved the base- Same logic as Maelon's cure. If I destroyed the base, all the suffering of the victims will be for nothing, keeping the base might save billions.
#20905
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 04:14
alperez
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@Ieldra
Basically i'm a soldier who's spent most of the past 10 years doing peacekeeping missions in various different places, from Liberia to Kosovo, so i've seen the worst examples in some case of what people will do to each other, especially in the cause of putting one set of people above another for whatever reason, idealogical, religous etc.
So when it comes to the base choice, i see cerberus trying to put their idealogical agenda above everyone else and then because of my personal experience i've rarely seen that end well, no matter the intentions or overall goal, usually the strong will prey on the weak in my experience, so handing the base to an organisation that has a specific agenda seems completely at odds to me personally.
When i add up in game the examples of the lengths cerberus go to in order to achieve their agenda, the experiments etc, it just brings it even more clearly in focus with my own experiences so no matter the logic (in terms of the reapers themselves) the overriding concern that always makes my decision for me is just exactly what lengths will cerberus go to, which leads to blowing the base up everytime.
Basically i'm a soldier who's spent most of the past 10 years doing peacekeeping missions in various different places, from Liberia to Kosovo, so i've seen the worst examples in some case of what people will do to each other, especially in the cause of putting one set of people above another for whatever reason, idealogical, religous etc.
So when it comes to the base choice, i see cerberus trying to put their idealogical agenda above everyone else and then because of my personal experience i've rarely seen that end well, no matter the intentions or overall goal, usually the strong will prey on the weak in my experience, so handing the base to an organisation that has a specific agenda seems completely at odds to me personally.
When i add up in game the examples of the lengths cerberus go to in order to achieve their agenda, the experiments etc, it just brings it even more clearly in focus with my own experiences so no matter the logic (in terms of the reapers themselves) the overriding concern that always makes my decision for me is just exactly what lengths will cerberus go to, which leads to blowing the base up everytime.
#20906
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 04:21
flemm
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For me, the problem with keeping the base is that TIM is the only one who will plausibly be able to study it or use it. TIM cannot be trusted in that situation.
The other problem is that there's no way for you to really know how big of a risk there is that the Reapers themselves may be able to retake the base and use it against you. If you destroy it, at least you can be sure you are doing some damage.
You have some data from the base already, because you've been scanning it as you go, and no doubt Joker and EDI have been doing the same. So, taking what info you have and burning the rest seems like the best call, strategically.
In other circumstances, keeping the base might make sense, but not so much in the circumstances we are given, I don't think.
The other problem is that there's no way for you to really know how big of a risk there is that the Reapers themselves may be able to retake the base and use it against you. If you destroy it, at least you can be sure you are doing some damage.
You have some data from the base already, because you've been scanning it as you go, and no doubt Joker and EDI have been doing the same. So, taking what info you have and burning the rest seems like the best call, strategically.
In other circumstances, keeping the base might make sense, but not so much in the circumstances we are given, I don't think.
Modifié par flemm, 18 novembre 2011 - 04:22 .
#20907
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 04:29
Ieldra
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I keep my mistakes (should it then be an unadulterated one). My rage will be targeted at TIM all the more for this:jtav wrote...
I've changed my mind. Cerberus is just too monstrous. I cannot in good conscience give them the base. I agree that ParagonShep's stated reasoning is crap, but I'll sleep better with it gone.
"I give you the Collector base, and THIS is what you do with it? Without even looking for less monstrous alternatives? Protection of humanity, bah! What are you, indoctrinated? For this looks very much like "salvation through destruction" to me."
#20908
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 04:31
Beard_of_Bees
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Yes, the reasoning paragon Shep gives for destroying the base (bad things happened there, so lets blow it up) is not appropriate for a supposed saviour of humanity. Alperez/flemm/jtav have better reasons, I can understand the logic there.
But knowing what I knew in ME2 I think I still would have handed the base over. It was too valuable. Mordin even said so at the decision point, and that pushed me over the edge (even though later on everyone, including Mordin, said it was a bad idea!).
Knowing what I know now I would not give it over.
But knowing what I knew in ME2 I think I still would have handed the base over. It was too valuable. Mordin even said so at the decision point, and that pushed me over the edge (even though later on everyone, including Mordin, said it was a bad idea!).
Knowing what I know now I would not give it over.
#20909
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 04:32
alperez
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One other problem i had with it and actually its a problem i have with other things in mass effect especially since i've now seen the leaks, is that in the end its a choice that you can kinda easily figure out the repurcussions of in some way.
I mean to me it was always likely that cerberus would turn on you (a better and more interesting story would be if they wouldn't but that's asking for too much originality) so handing them the base is in essence strengthening a potential enemy more than a potential ally imo.
What could have been interesting is if either they didn't got the route they did with cereberus or made the choice something like handing it to the alliance/council only for them to actually turn on you, something you weren't going to expect.
I mean to me it was always likely that cerberus would turn on you (a better and more interesting story would be if they wouldn't but that's asking for too much originality) so handing them the base is in essence strengthening a potential enemy more than a potential ally imo.
What could have been interesting is if either they didn't got the route they did with cereberus or made the choice something like handing it to the alliance/council only for them to actually turn on you, something you weren't going to expect.
#20910
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 04:33
Beard_of_Bees
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Ieldra2 wrote...
I keep my mistakes (should it then be an unadulterated one). My rage will be targeted at TIM all the more for this:
"I give you the Collector base, and THIS is what you do with it? Without even looking for less monstrous alternatives? Protection of humanity, bah! What are you, indoctrinated? For this looks very much like "salvation through destruction" to me."
Yes, I don't want to redo it now that I have info that was not available at the time. If it was a big mistake I will live with it (unless the consequences were say, Miranda drops dead or something. Then I would replay).
Modifié par Beard_of_Bees, 18 novembre 2011 - 04:34 .
#20911
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 04:39
alperez
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Funny enough if the consequences were that destroying the base meant Miranda dies, then i suddenly find myself abandoning my principles and objections and handing the base to cerberus in a heartbeat lol.
#20912
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 04:45
jtav
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That makes two of us. My MaleShep and I have no principles left, only caring that she lives and is happy. And destroying the base means extra lines. Things being how they are, that matters to me.
#20913
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 04:45
flemm
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alperez wrote...
Funny enough if the consequences were that destroying the base meant Miranda dies, then i suddenly find myself abandoning my principles and objections and handing the base to cerberus in a heartbeat lol.
Yeah, really
Forget what I said about strategy
#20914
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 04:51
alperez
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jtav wrote...
That makes two of us. My MaleShep and I have no principles left, only caring that she lives and is happy. And destroying the base means extra lines. Things being how they are, that matters to me.
Extra line quite simply the best argument ever put forward for destroying the base.
#20915
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 04:56
flemm
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alperez wrote...
Extra line quite simply the best argument ever put forward for destroying the base.
It's certainly reason enough for me.
Incidentally, I wonder if that leaked script is only one version of the actual game script. They've talked about impressive player agency and increased replayability... But, for the most part, I'm not really seeing it. If so, I suppose a choice like the CB could be responsible for one of the big branches of the script.
Modifié par flemm, 18 novembre 2011 - 04:56 .
#20916
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 05:06
alperez
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That's one of the hope's i'm clinging too, i can't really see too much replayability in what i've read other than probably using different imports for different romances or something like that, but even that wouldn't change that much.
Plus where there would conceivably be branches there doesn't seem to be too many, so maybe you could be right.
Plus where there would conceivably be branches there doesn't seem to be too many, so maybe you could be right.
#20917
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 05:13
flemm
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There are a couple of other oddities like that. For example, they've talked about more romance options in ME3 than before, but I'm not really seeing that either.
Edit: The other one that comes to mind is squad functionality. The squad is small, but otherwise it doesn't seem to work that differently. There is an element of choice apparent in the script, but it's pretty restricted. So, given what's been said about this, I have to wonder if there's something else that we're missing here.
Edit: The other one that comes to mind is squad functionality. The squad is small, but otherwise it doesn't seem to work that differently. There is an element of choice apparent in the script, but it's pretty restricted. So, given what's been said about this, I have to wonder if there's something else that we're missing here.
Modifié par flemm, 18 novembre 2011 - 05:21 .
#20918
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 05:18
jtav
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I'm counting six or seven romances, depending on how many times you count the VS. Plus continuations for ME2 LIs and Kelly.
#20919
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 05:20
alperez
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Do they cover the new characters much in what you've read, i mean if we take the existing romances plus the supposed new ones then technically there would be more right.
#20920
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 05:24
Ieldra
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@alperez:
Thanks for the explanation.
As for the situation we find us in, I never thought that Cerberus would turn Reaper ally, that's for sure. Cerberus turning against me, that I would risk as long as they were still working against the Reapers.
In our frequent debates about the Collector base, I always argued that the Cerberus working for the Reapers was be the only scenario where keeping the base could result in more damage than benefit - a simple risk calculation. And because I thought TIM at least meant what he said about protecting humanity, I thought that was unlikely to happen. And now what do we get....
...you know, I wish there was *one* major decision in the games not contrived to make the intuitive moral decision have the best outcome.
Thanks for the explanation.
As for the situation we find us in, I never thought that Cerberus would turn Reaper ally, that's for sure. Cerberus turning against me, that I would risk as long as they were still working against the Reapers.
In our frequent debates about the Collector base, I always argued that the Cerberus working for the Reapers was be the only scenario where keeping the base could result in more damage than benefit - a simple risk calculation. And because I thought TIM at least meant what he said about protecting humanity, I thought that was unlikely to happen. And now what do we get....
...you know, I wish there was *one* major decision in the games not contrived to make the intuitive moral decision have the best outcome.
#20921
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 05:28
flemm
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jtav wrote...
I'm counting six or seven romances, depending on how many times you count the VS. Plus continuations for ME2 LIs and Kelly.
Well, six is the same as ME2. So, maybe they are counting the ME2 continuations, but, given how those are handled, I'm not sure that makes sense. Also...
*mild spoiler*
Two of those six you are counting are the new s/s-exclusive options, right? So, for example, a straight male Shep looking for a LI in a non-imported game would actually only have two choices... Liara and Ashley. Seems a little low. It could be how it works, of course, but it does strike me as odd.
#20922
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 05:28
Ieldra
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LOL.alperez wrote...
jtav wrote...
That makes two of us. My MaleShep and I have no principles left, only caring that she lives and is happy. And destroying the base means extra lines. Things being how they are, that matters to me.
Extra line quite simply the best argument ever put forward for destroying the base.
If only they'd given Miranda a better line to argue for the destruction of the base. I would have no problem with OOC lines, and my Shepard, who quite readily admits that Miranda is smarter than he is, could've destroyed the base on her recommendation. But no, Bioware had to throw a wrench in that plan, too. I hate the "betrayal" line.
@flemm:
If I recall things correctly, in DA2 you had two options for straight romances for M!Hawke. It felt quite enough.
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@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 novembre 2011 - 05:37 .
#20923
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 05:30
alperez
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Ieldra2 wrote...
...you know, I wish there was *one* major decision in the games not contrived to make the intuitive moral decision have the best outcome.
That's one of my biggest gripes i have myself and i'm almost a complete paragon, that and none of the outcomes of certain choices actually seem to be unforeseen (not in game me3 choices, but the choices we've made or have been made during me1 and me2).
Udina is a prime example of this, without going into the specifics, did we really expect anything else?
#20924
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 05:33
jtav
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I meant the resignation, not the betrayal. Might be the only closure we get. *grumbles*
@flemm
The reporter embedded on the Normandy seems to be m/f.
@flemm
The reporter embedded on the Normandy seems to be m/f.
#20925
Posté 18 novembre 2011 - 05:45
Ieldra
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Indeed.alperez wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...
...you know, I wish there was *one* major decision in the games not contrived to make the intuitive moral decision have the best outcome.
That's one of my biggest gripes i have myself and i'm almost a complete paragon, that and none of the outcomes of certain choices actually seem to be unforeseen (not in game me3 choices, but the choices we've made or have been made during me1 and me2).
Udina is a prime example of this, without going into the specifics, did we really expect anything else?
And to think that if the pattern of consequences were more balanced, I'd have more fun playing a Paragon because it would mean something. That design decision definitely backfired as far as I'm concerned.
@jtav:
Me might not get what we want - her presence at a certain location - but I'm sure we'll get one or two lines in some conversation. Unsatisfactory, yes, but the CB hasn't got more. And...I guess this is the right place for the reminder:
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@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler*. Details see here.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 novembre 2011 - 05:48 .
