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[CrutchCricket]

Playing catch-up again:

On TIM: The message might've been specific but it doesn't actually show what the Reapers are or how the end will come about right? So while the threat is taken seriously early preparations might not necessarily be appropriate to fighting Mecha-Cthulu. I'm sensing we're moving on so I'll just say that my theory would likely have to be adjusted but could and should still hold the following: TIM began Cerberus with a very clear goal and using a very determined methodology that disregards morality and he did so willingly based on the information he had and it was his desperation in the face of impending doom that lead to his mistakes. I think this goes a long way in explaining some of the things we know about Cerberus that don't fit. How exactly is feeding people to Thresher Maws or even making them greater biotics supposed to stop the Reapers? That has to come from a combination of ignorance and desperation both of which he has little control over.

alperez: The thing is I don't think Miranda would be consciously looking for a father figure at all after she runs away. And she doesn't run right into TIM's lap either. If she had then what you're saying may have developed more strongly. At that point she's a teenager, likely distraught, she just wants protection and she hasn't yet decided to dedicate herself to the advancement agenda yet. If TIM was there then, encouraging her gifts and personally giving her purpse then yes, she might even open up enough to consciously think of him as a father figure. As it stands she discovered that for herself and became self-sufficient and with a purpose before she met TIM. So even if there's some aspect of that buried deeply in her mind the relationship, if she even considered it back then would be more along the lines of mentor-protege. Regardless I do agree any level of this would make the betrayal sting more. I mean not only does this make Shepard the only one who hasn't betrayed her when he could but the only figure she's ever allowed any authority over her has screwed her over. Yeah, she wouldn't be happy about that.

Regarding Oriana: Like flemm said Miranda running away and her taking Oriana could be separate events. I believe they were and by the time Miranda rescued her sister she knew she wasn't suited to raising her and thus set her up elsewhere as best she could.

This reminds me of another thought I was having, don't know if I brought it up here or not. In thinking of possible endings to this whole yarn, Miranda and Shepard having kids was an obvious one. But I wonder at an ending where Miranda does have children but then for some reason, be it her personal issues, be it her continuing "service" she decides she isn't suited to raising them and gives them to Oriana (this may have to be set some years later). What do you think of that? It's not an ending I'd prefer in my stories but it is an ending I've invisioned (I've also invisioned one in which everyone dies so there you go).

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
@Ieldra, some of the contradictory stuff you're referring to (quite a bit of it actually), really only exists for the moment in the SB dossier, so unless it translates somewhere into the actual game world in ME3, I think it can/should be considered separately.

As far as Miranda's material in the basic ME2 game is concerned, it's pretty complex and not always perfectly consistent, but I don't think it can be said to be contradictory.

Except that the game is determined to showcase Miranda's failures, so that her competence gets undermined. Giving *good* advice at the SM would've made a world of difference.

As for the LotSB material, it appears to pan out with what we know of ME3, though I really hope they won't make too much of it.

Ieldra2 wrote...
When Miranda ran away from her father, taking Oriana with her, would she have entertained the thought to keep Oriana and raise her herself?

I'm not sure the material in the game actually supports the idea that Miranda took Oriana with her when she left. I don't believe there's any explicit information one way or another, but to me the LM suggests that Miranda taking Oriana away from her father is a separate event.

If you check the timeline, it almost cannot be otherwise than that she took Oriana with her. We know she took Oriana when she was a small child, and Miranda would've been around 16-17. I cannot imagine that she ran earlier than that.

@td1984:
That's about my take on it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 novembre 2011 - 06:25 .

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
On TIM: The message might've been specific but it doesn't actually show what the Reapers are or how the end will come about right? So while the threat is taken seriously early preparations might not necessarily be appropriate to fighting Mecha-Cthulu. I'm sensing we're moving on so I'll just say that my theory would likely have to be adjusted but could and should still hold the following: TIM began Cerberus with a very clear goal and using a very determined methodology that disregards morality and he did so willingly based on the information he had and it was his desperation in the face of impending doom that lead to his mistakes. I think this goes a long way in explaining some of the things we know about Cerberus that don't fit.

Yes, that would fit.

How exactly is feeding people to Thresher Maws or even making them greater biotics supposed to stop the Reapers? That has to come from a combination of ignorance and desperation both of which he has little control over.

Actually, I think the Akuze incidents and the Teltin facility were run by incompetents or sadists. It makes no sense. Even if you're a "results at all costs" person, you don't go out of your way to cause pointless suffering and your subjects may be nothing more but lab rats, but biotic children would be very valuable lab rats. "Going through them fast" makes no sense. And don't get me started on Overlord. Again, Bioware tried too hard to hammer the "evil" part home, and as a result I resent these presentations as heavy-handed moralizing, intended to discredit the other stuff Cerberus is doing is which is less problematic. That's where I got my impression that ME gives science a bad name. Thankfully ME3 will avoid that. Hard. (Hopefully that will also extend to Miranda's genetic engineering).

Regarding Oriana: Like flemm said Miranda running away and her taking Oriana could be separate events. I believe they were and by the time Miranda rescued her sister she knew she wasn't suited to raising her and thus set her up elsewhere as best she could.

Check the timeline. It's not quite plausible.

This reminds me of another thought I was having, don't know if I brought it up here or not. In thinking of possible endings to this whole yarn, Miranda and Shepard having kids was an obvious one. But I wonder at an ending where Miranda does have children but then for some reason, be it her personal issues, be it her continuing "service" she decides she isn't suited to raising them and gives them to Oriana (this may have to be set some years later). What do you think of that? It's not an ending I'd prefer in my stories but it is an ending I've invisioned (I've also invisioned one in which everyone dies so there you go).

I think that would depend on the kind of work she'll be doing after the Reapers. Covert operations would be more of a hindrance, science less of one. It's possible but if you consider the lengths she'd have to go to actually have children, I think she'd try very hard to do both.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 novembre 2011 - 06:43 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Except that the game is determined to showcase Miranda's failures, so that her competence gets undermined. Giving *good* advice at the SM would've made a world of difference.

Well, there's the biotic specialist thing, which doesn't produce best-case, but I wouldn't call it wrong, exactly. She's right about leading the fire teams. And her advice about accompanying the crew back to the ship is harsh, but not necessarily wrong.

She recommends building up the squad prior to the Reaper IFF, which is the right call. So, it's a mixed bag. But saying that the game is determined to showcase Miranda's failures strikes me as a bit of an overstatement.

It's true that she's frequently portrayed in an unsympathetic light and, in that sense, her portrayal differs from that of most squad members. But that's a slightly different question.

Ieldra2 wrote...
As for the LotSB material, it appears to pan out with what we know of ME3, though I really hope they won't make too much of it.

Well, as you know, I'm not pleased with what I'm seeing in the leak, but I'd say the jury's still out on how much the LotSB material will play into it. Miranda's attachment to Oriana is showcased in the game itself, so we don't need the files for that. I'm seeing no signs of the social ineptitude suggested in the files (and which would be totally OOC in any event). So, the main question seems to be whether the infertility will be addressed, and, if so, how?

Ieldra2 wrote...
If you check the timeline, it almost cannot be otherwise than that she took Oriana with her. We know she took Oriana when she was a small child, and Miranda would've been around 16-17. I cannot imagine that she ran earlier than that.

"Small child" is a pretty imprecise expression. There would be a window of a few years there. If anything, "small child" would seem to indicate that Oriana was no longer an infant when she was taken, though still very young.

Modifié par flemm, 20 novembre 2011 - 06:56 .

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
If you check the timeline, it almost cannot be otherwise than that she took Oriana with her. We know she took Oriana when she was a small child, and Miranda would've been around 16-17. I cannot imagine that she ran earlier than that.

"Small child" is rather ambiguous. It could refer to anything from 1-5 years of age, more if you're generous. Miranda may have not run earlier than 16 (which if I remember right is the age difference between them?) but I doubt she would've taken a newborn infant on the run with her particularly since her own escape "involved gunfire". And for that matter of why would Mr. Lawson be growing a new clone if Miranda hadn't left yet and why would he tell her that? Information seems to suggest this happened after and Miranda found out once she was already gone, possibly with Cerberus resources.

[outmane]

Maybe you guys would feel like answering a few quick questions

With the incoming Reaper War, how much importance do you guys think Miranda should give to her sister safty? Where would she draw the line in her priorities?
Also, how important is Oriana to your Shepard? Where would he draw the line in helping Miranda save her sister while having to deal with the Reapers? Is it linked to romancing her?

Im very curious because in my canon run Miranda is more of a respected rival then a friend. Im trying to figure how much personal help my Shep will want to give her.Oh and I havent read the spoilers so plz dont tell me if Oriana ends up destroying the Reapers by hersel (I knew I should have saved her!)

[Skullheart]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
If you check the timeline, it almost cannot be otherwise than that she took Oriana with her. We know she took Oriana when she was a small child, and Miranda would've been around 16-17. I cannot imagine that she ran earlier than that.

"Small child" is rather ambiguous. It could refer to anything from 1-5 years of age, more if you're generous. Miranda may have not run earlier than 16 (which if I remember right is the age difference between them?) but I doubt she would've taken a newborn infant on the run with her particularly since her own escape "involved gunfire". And for that matter of why would Mr. Lawson be growing a new clone if Miranda hadn't left yet and why would he tell her that? Information seems to suggest this happened after and Miranda found out once she was already gone, possibly with Cerberus resources.

I believe that Miranda took Oriana when she ran away from his father.

Remember what niket said. He helped Miranda to escape because it was her decision, but she never told him that she took Oriana.

[Skullheart]

outmane wrote...

Maybe you guys would feel like answering a few quick questions

With the incoming Reaper War, how much importance do you guys think Miranda should give to her sister safty? Where would she draw the line in her priorities?
Also, how important is Oriana to your Shepard? Where would he draw the line in helping Miranda save her sister while having to deal with the Reapers? Is it linked to romancing her?

Im very curious because in my canon run Miranda is more of a respected rival then a friend. Im trying to figure how much personal help my Shep will want to give her.Oh and I havent read the spoilers so plz dont tell me if Oriana ends up destroying the Reapers by hersel (I knew I should have saved her!)

Answering that should be too much spoiler. Lets just say that Oriana is in a critical location.

[flemm]

Skullheart wrote...
Remember what niket said. He helped Miranda to escape because it was her decision, but she never told him that she took Oriana.

While not proof of anything, I think that is actually one of the lines of dialog that suggests the two events were imagined as different by the writers: Niket helped Miranda escape, but he knew nothing about her taking Oriana. He seems to have found out about that at a later time.

We don't know how he helped, so we can't say for sure, but, if the two events are different, nothing needs explaining. If the two events are the same, we would need to explain how Niket helped Miranda while being completely unaware that she was taking Oriana as well.

Modifié par flemm, 20 novembre 2011 - 07:17 .

[Ieldra]

outmane wrote...
Maybe you guys would feel like answering a few quick questions

With the incoming Reaper War, how much importance do you guys think Miranda should give to her sister safty? Where would she draw the line in her priorities?
Also, how important is Oriana to your Shepard? Where would he draw the line in helping Miranda save her sister while having to deal with the Reapers? Is it linked to romancing her?

I think if she had something critical to contribute to the war that no one else could do, she'd give saving the galaxy priority but it would break her heart. So would Shepard.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 novembre 2011 - 07:27 .

[jtav]

I disagree. Oriana is the one thing in the world she'd sacrifice anything for. That's both her chief virtue and greatest flaw.

Matt, at least, would go to any lengths Miranda asked of him. What the lady wants, she gets. That's his fatal flaw. He'd let the galaxy burn to keep her happy.

Modifié par jtav, 20 novembre 2011 - 07:42 .

[MisterJB]

outmane wrote...

Maybe you guys would feel like answering a few quick questions

With the incoming Reaper War, how much importance do you guys think Miranda should give to her sister safty? Where would she draw the line in her priorities?

Hard to say. Miranda's pragmatism doesn't apply when it comes to Oriana. So, my best guess is that Miranda would only sacrifice Oriana if the alternative was complete Reaper victory. She's too rational not to.

Also, how important is Oriana to your Shepard?

Second most important person in existence but only because of how important she is to Miranda.

Where would he draw the line in helping Miranda save her sister while having to deal with the Reapers?

My Shepard would save Earth before Oriana but Miranda before Earth.

[CrutchCricket]

It seems to me that while Miranda might sacrifice Oriana (in only the most extreme case where it's either total victory or total defeat) she herself would then lose a great deal of her will to live. So if Oriana dies there is a very good chance Miranda will die as well. And given that this same logic applies to my Shepard regarding Miranda, Oriana effectively becomes the shatterpoint of the entire good guy team. We might still win. But we won't be around to tell the tale.

Unless of course Bioware forces this outcome in which case I will personally turn as many people into Reaper Big Gulps as I can.

[outmane]

Thanks for all the answers. I very much like that while Oriana might be Miranda's 'weakness', her attachment to her makes her very much human.
Im not sure on what terms my FemShep and Miranda parted ways (since she did not bring her to the reaper larva, she did not get to hear her say goodbye to TIM). So my FemShep enthousiam at saving Oriana 'again' while theres so many others needing to be saved wil pretty much depend on how Miranda will get in touch with her.

On a side note, I beieve that my canon FemShep will end up on better terms with Miranda now that they are not forced to work together. Because to me they both respect each other motives and determination. Its just he way they do things that clashed. It reminds me of those movies where 2 good cops with diffrent methods are forced to work together.

Anyway even if they cant be friend I hope their relation goes from respected rivals to respected allies. as long as they dont end up in the same chain of command.

[MisterJB]

outmane wrote...
So my FemShep enthousiam at saving Oriana 'again' while theres so many others needing to be saved wil pretty much depend on how Miranda will get in touch with her.

Miranda's mission will play a role in the war against Cerberus, saving Oriana is just the more personal side of it.
Something positive to be said about ME3, all of these personal sidequests are connected to the main plot somehow.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
It seems to me that while Miranda might sacrifice Oriana (in only the most extreme case where it's either total victory or total defeat) she herself would then lose a great deal of her will to live. So if Oriana dies there is a very good chance Miranda will die as well. And given that this same logic applies to my Shepard regarding Miranda, Oriana effectively becomes the shatterpoint of the entire good guy team. We might still win. But we won't be around to tell the tale.

The direction is right, but I don't think it would be that extreme. Perhaps Miranda might go to take suicidal risks in the war if Oriana is dead, but plainly I find that hard to imagine. She isn't the type. She'd rather revert to her cold persona and get quite a bit more ruthless. If a romanced Shepard could get her out of that is anyone's guess.

Unless of course Bioware forces this outcome in which case I will personally turn as many people into Reaper Big Gulps as I can.

Fortunately it doesn't appear that we'll get that outcome. Phew.


Hmm...must finish my latest (and probably last) game of ME1 so that I can see Miranda again

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

outmane wrote...
So my FemShep enthousiam at saving Oriana 'again' while theres so many others needing to be saved wil pretty much depend on how Miranda will get in touch with her.

Miranda's mission will play a role in the war against Cerberus, saving Oriana is just the more personal side of it.
Something positive to be said about ME3, all of these personal sidequests are connected to the main plot somehow.

Which has the nice side effect of not making the characters appear totally centered on their personal problems.

As an aside, I hope they'll give Oriana a redesign and make her look somewhat like Miranda. I find the generic model they used for her in ME2 offputting.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As an aside, I hope they'll give Oriana a redesign and make her look somewhat like Miranda. I find the generic model they used for her in ME2 offputting.

I was wondering about that as well. I don't think they'll keep the generic look, since she's more significant this time around. It's even possible they might have the same VA, I suppose.

Modifié par flemm, 20 novembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[jtav]

Can Strahovski play that young?

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Can Strahovski play that young?

Not really sure. It would depend partly on how they want to play it, I suppose, as far as how similar they are. 

[Skullheart]

I don't know if Yvonne can voice a 20 yr old girl.
I would like Oriana being voiced by... I don't know. I'll hear some females from bioware games to think about (at least the Oriana from dragon age sounds too mature)

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The direction is right, but I don't think it would be that extreme. Perhaps Miranda might go to take suicidal risks in the war if Oriana is dead, but plainly I find that hard to imagine. She isn't the type. She'd rather revert to her cold persona and get quite a bit more ruthless. If a romanced Shepard could get her out of that is anyone's guess.

I don't know. I'm not suggesting she'd purposefully get careless in a firefright or something. But engineering a suicidal situation that would bring great benefit but at the cost of her life? She'd be more likely to do that.
Of course Shepard would try everything to dissuade her or find another way. Worst case: he prevents her from going at the last minute by going himself. He dies and she's left truly alone.

[Td1984]

flemm wrote...

Skullheart wrote...
Remember what niket said. He helped Miranda to escape because it was her decision, but she never told him that she took Oriana.

While not proof of anything, I think that is actually one of the lines of dialog that suggests the two events were imagined as different by the writers: Niket helped Miranda escape, but he knew nothing about her taking Oriana. He seems to have found out about that at a later time.

We don't know how he helped, so we can't say for sure, but, if the two events are different, nothing needs explaining. If the two events are the same, we would need to explain how Niket helped Miranda while being completely unaware that she was taking Oriana as well.

I know that in my head canon for my MaleShep, the two events were seperate. However, that's not really relevant here.

[jtav]

Somebody wanted the whole of the story I posted earlier?

Reunion

"Alive. Miranda was alive. Not blown to bits or turned into a husk. The idea seemed incredible. He'd lost his family to Mindoir and his unit to Akuze. Losing people was what he did, just as much as saving the day. But not this time."

Some spoilers, but I also tweaked a bit. Reviews very much appreciated.

[enayasoul]

jtav wrote...

Somebody wanted the whole of the story I posted earlier?

Reunion

"Alive. Miranda was alive. Not blown to bits or turned into a husk. The idea seemed incredible. He'd lost his family to Mindoir and his unit to Akuze. Losing people was what he did, just as much as saving the day. But not this time."

Some spoilers, but I also tweaked a bit. Reviews very much appreciated.

Awwwww!  This hit the spot!  Great job, Jtav!  I loved reading it.  It almost makes me wanna cry, in a good way!  A few typo's here and there but an enjoyable read.  

I bet you can guess what my favorite part was...

Modifié par enayasoul, 20 novembre 2011 - 11:58 .