82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Skullheart]

I liked that jtav. Glad to see that you didn't use any lines from the leak.
And yes, in a way, It really makes someone to cry.

[alperez]

@CrutchCricket

I still think that Miranda in Tim found a replacement father figure, not so much that she was conciously looking for one or searching for one, but the realisation of what her own father was really like and her subsequent escape from him imo would still create a gap in her pschye that Tim initially filled.

Even if she didn't meet Tim until a couple of years after her escape it still wouldn't make any difference, that gap would still exist and since as far as we know TIM is apart from Oriana possibly the most important person in Miranda's life (up until the events of me2) and we can speculate age and authority wise possibly the closest resembelance to her actual father, to me its logical that he filled that role in some way.

Having the need for a father doesn't diminish Miranda's own capabilities in anyway, we're all in some ways slaves to an emotional need of some shape or form, even if we're not fully aware of that need on a conscious level.

I do think over time that relationship changed and became more mentor/protege and that Miranda never conciously sought out a father figure, its just to me because of the extreme circumstances she went through with her own father that its more logical that given her age when these events occured that it would have created that subconscious need to replace her own father.

I think where the difference with Miranda would truly lie is in the amount of time it would take for the relationship to change, wheras with some it could take years, i think in Miranda's case it took much less than that, her own abilities and her responsibility to Oriana would imo have negated that need that much quicker.

But feel free to disagree, to me its a measure of how complex a character Miranda is that we can both like her and still not see her exactly the same way.

[flemm]

alperez wrote...
I still think that Miranda in Tim found a replacement father figure, not so much that she was conciously looking for one or searching for one, but the realisation of what her own father was really like and her subsequent escape from him imo would still create a gap in her pschye that Tim initially filled.

I think it makes sense as well, at least initially. We should keep in mind that Miranda was quite young when she escaped her father and joined Cerberus. When you throw in the fact that she had to deal with what was apparently a form of systematic abuse as a child, it makes sense that she would be attracted to the stability that Cerberus offered, and that she would admire TIM's relatively respectful treatment of her, combined with the ambitious goals of the organisation, which suited her abilities and disposition.

It's not a bad thing to want a family or to develop loyalty based on trust. Miranda's loyalty and trust were misplaced in this case, for a variety of reasons, or at least became so over time. But that is a somewhat different issue. And that's TIM's failing for the most part, (though you could perhaps fault her for not realizing her mistake sooner).

Modifié par flemm, 21 novembre 2011 - 12:36 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
We should keep in mind that Miranda was quite young when she escaped her father and joined Cerberus. When you throw in the fact that she had to deal with what was apparently a form of systematic abuse as a child,

See it's precisely because of the underlined part that I think she wouldn't want a new father figure. Psychology isn't my expertise but don't abuse victims instinctually reject anything associated with the source of their abuse? I know it can go the other way and they can develop a dependence on it but clearly Miranda hasn't gone that route. And come to think of it "abuse" may be too strong a word. But I still think she would've rejected any paternal connection with TIM if she had been aware of it. Again that doesn't mean there wasn't a hint of it deep down. But I think it was so buried it was almost inconsequential.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
See it's precisely because of the underlined part that I think she wouldn't want a new father figure. Psychology isn't my expertise but don't abuse victims instinctually reject anything associated with the source of their abuse? I know it can go the other way and they can develop a dependence on it but clearly Miranda hasn't gone that route. And come to think of it "abuse" may be too strong a word. But I still think she would've rejected any paternal connection with TIM if she had been aware of it. Again that doesn't mean there wasn't a hint of it deep down. But I think it was so buried it was almost inconsequential.

Well, I think our views are similar, it's just a question of nuance, really.

"Abuse" can mean a number of different things, and can be more or less severe. We don't know exactly how everything went down between Miranda and her father, but it seems like his treatment of her involved at least some amount of what would have to be considered emotional abuse, related to his being psychotically domineering.

But she survived it, escaped it, and remains essentially whole, emotionally. She's slow to form emotional attachment, but, when she does, the bond is very strong. So, it's not as if TIM is replacing her father. It would have been the opposite, really. He was everything her father wasn't: he provided safety, freedom, rewarding work, respect, he put her in charge, etc.

"Mentor" might be the best term to use overall, but I feel like some father/daughter elements may have been present, more or less consciously, from Miranda's point of view, at least.

Modifié par flemm, 21 novembre 2011 - 01:23 .

[alperez]

flemm

I think it brings it all home as to why the confrontation between Tim and Miranda really needs to happen, the backstory between those 2 is complicated, it needs as much if not more resolution than Miranda and her fathers.

Tim and cerberus have probably been a bigger influence on her life both personally and professionally than her father ever was and almost all the issues regarding her father have been dealt with to a large extent, in fact if certain events didn't occur in me3 then its quite conceiveable imo that Miranda would have never even sought a resolution to that part of her life.

However with TIM everything is much fresher, the events and situations and the conflict that this would cause for Miranda personally and professionally are practically just occuring, while there may be some parallel with what happened with her father, its pretty much Tim who's the instigator and its him that Miranda would seek to confront.

Also Miranda herself is a much different person now than she was when she ran from her father, so she'd be that much more likely to seek out the confrontation with Tim imo.

[flemm]

alperez wrote...

flemm

I think it brings it all home as to why the confrontation between Tim and Miranda really needs to happen, the backstory between those 2 is complicated, it needs as much if not more resolution than Miranda and her fathers.

[...]

Also Miranda herself is a much different person now than she was when she ran from her father, so she'd be that much more likely to seek out the confrontation with Tim imo.

Agreed. I could see story reasons preventing a direct confrontation from actually happening, but Miranda would absolutely seek it out, and do everything she could to make it happen.

It used to be her father who threatened Oriana, but now TIM has quite literally sold Oriana out. And then there is the little matter of TIM betraying everything she believes in and has worked for all her adult life...

Modifié par flemm, 21 novembre 2011 - 01:51 .

[alperez]

CrutchCricket

To me its not a question of want, i agree completely that she wouldn't technically want or seek out a new father figure, however we're emotional beings and deep down we have emotional needs, despite what happened with her father, this need would imo still be present during the time she and TIM met.

People who've been abused often end up in abusive relationships, but that's not how i see Miranda and Tim's relationship, its more the other type a replacement for her father based on a mistaken assumption of who TIM actually was or what kind of a person he really was.

To me in TIM she saw the exact opposite of her father, someone who valued her gifts and intellect not as a test subject but as a person, someone who gave her a reason to be everything she could rather than claimed to be the reason she was who she was if you get me.

So initially imo TIM filled the role of what a father should be, filling the emotional need of someone who's own father was the opposite of what a father should be.

But that initial relationship was brief imo, so it developed into a mentor relationship rather quickly because of the type of person Miranda is.

[CrutchCricket]

Hmm. TIM being the father figure by virtue of being the complete opposite of Mr. Lawson? Maybe.
I see your point and put that way I can agree with it. But it would still be minimal and completely under the radar of Miranda's perception. After all TIM may have respected her for her gifts but I kind of doubt he gave her advice about boys or saw her off on prom night. And a mentor is a parental figure of sorts anyway. I think we're reaching consensus.

[alperez]

CrutchCricket

"I think we're reaching a consensus"

Is it wrong i pictured you saying that in legion's voice lol

But yeah its not so much a full on father role i envision when i say father figure, its just in some aspects i feel initially Tim filled that role for Miranda and again it was fairly briefly that he did so.

I do think a much bigger determination in the relationship is what Miranda may have believed that TIM's goals were and that in this she completely agreed and supported him and that its that in the end which Miranda would consider the bigger betrayal.

Seeing what TIM is doing after working with/for/alongside him for so long must in some ways be a devasting experience for her and one i have no doubt she'd seek to do something about.

[Dr. Doctor]

I'm sort of hoping that Oriana isn't just going to be a victim or a plot device just to advance Miranda's story along. I sort of get the feeling that Oriana takes after her sister in more ways than one:

Miranda: I'm not just going to leave you here it isn't-

Oriana: -safe I get it. Miri, I appreciate everything that you've done for me but you don't always need to be my guardian angel. I can take care of myself.

Miranda: (hugs Oriana)I never wanted any of this for you. You deserve a normal life, a family, things that I could never have.

Oriana: Miri, there are people who need you. The Reapers are still out there and right now that needs to be your concern I'll be fine.

Miranda: (sighs) Promise me you'll keep in contact, and you know if anything happens-

Oriana: You'll come running, I know.  Keep safe Miri.

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

I'm sort of hoping that Oriana isn't just going to be a victim or a plot device just to advance Miranda's story along. I sort of get the feeling that Oriana takes after her sister in more ways than one:

Miranda: I'm not just going to leave you here it isn't-

Oriana: -safe I get it. Miri, I appreciate everything that you've done for me but you don't always need to be my guardian angel. I can take care of myself.

Miranda: (hugs Oriana)I never wanted any of this for you. You deserve a normal life, a family, things that I could never have.

Oriana: Miri, there are people who need you. The Reapers are still out there and right now that needs to be your concern I'll be fine.

Miranda: (sighs) Promise me you'll keep in contact, and you know if anything happens-

Oriana: You'll come running, I know.  Keep safe Miri.

*applause*

I like that Miranda cares about Oriana, but that's not all she cares about, or all she should be focused on.

Modifié par flemm, 21 novembre 2011 - 02:57 .

[Dr. Doctor]

@Flemm
I sort of get the feeling that being able to be direct and business-like is a trait that the Lawsons share. Oriana should be a reason to fight against the Reapers not a reason to back down from it.

@jtav
Excellent work

The question I have about Cerberus is if the differing philosophies about the organization's goals exists. Miranda says herself that many people join out of xenophobia, but I wonder if we'll see operatives who aren't homicidal, mass-murderers like Kai Leng or characters like Gavin Archer.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Somebody wanted the whole of the story I posted earlier?

Reunion

"Alive. Miranda was alive. Not blown to bits or turned into a husk. The idea seemed incredible. He'd lost his family to Mindoir and his unit to Akuze. Losing people was what he did, just as much as saving the day. But not this time."

Some spoilers, but I also tweaked a bit. Reviews very much appreciated.

So beautiful, jtav.

I especially like this part:

Matt didn't feel like a hero. He felt like he was playing chess against a grandmaster with the entire galaxy as both pieces and prize. Sacrifice this and hope you can get that before your opponent notices. He'd never been that good at chess. If the galaxy survived, there would probably be a couple of dozen movies about all this. That would make him a badass full of witty one-liners who slept with every beautiful woman within a ten kilometer radius. His art would be gone. The uncertainty would be gone. Saviors of the galaxy didn't draw, and they didn't doubt. They certainly didn't long for anything more than to see their girlfriend again.

I like that there is something of the younger Matt still alive in him, that he hasn't been consumed by the war. Though that image becomes almost a little *too* strong in the actual meeting scene.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2011 - 08:06 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

alperez wrote...
I think it brings it all home as to why the confrontation between Tim and Miranda really needs to happen, the backstory between those 2 is complicated, it needs as much if not more resolution than Miranda and her fathers.

[...]

Also Miranda herself is a much different person now than she was when she ran from her father, so she'd be that much more likely to seek out the confrontation with Tim imo.

Agreed. I could see story reasons preventing a direct confrontation from actually happening, but Miranda would absolutely seek it out, and do everything she could to make it happen.

It used to be her father who threatened Oriana, but now TIM has quite literally sold Oriana out. And then there is the little matter of TIM betraying everything she believes in and has worked for all her adult life...

....which also needs to be spelled out. I take it Bioware doesn't want to be too concrete about it to keep different interpretations possible, but "a version of human advancement that doesn't include xenophobia", which is the state of our knowledge now, that's not enough.

And I agree that Miranda would seek the confrontation, although she knows she might not be able to do that alone. Accompanying Shepard on his way to TIM's base is not just appropriate, it is *exactly* what she would do. She knows TIM, she knows the station (if it's still the same station as in ME2), she knows Cerberus protocols and codes. She can help Shepard and get the confrontation with TIM.

If something prevents her from doing that, it must be big.... and from a storytelling viewpoint, her motivations for staying with Cerberus for 20 years would still need clarification.

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
Oriana should be a reason to fight against the Reapers not a reason to back down from it.

This x1000.

Ieldra2 wrote...
And I agree that Miranda would seek the confrontation, although she knows she might not be able to do that alone. Accompanying Shepard on his way to TIM's base is not just appropriate, it is *exactly* what she would do. She knows TIM, she knows the station (if it's still the same station as in ME2), she knows Cerberus protocols and codes. She can help Shepard and get the confrontation with TIM.

If something prevents her from doing that, it must be big.... and from a storytelling viewpoint, her motivations for staying with Cerberus for 20 years would still need clarification.

Agreed. Keeping this vague to avoid spoilers, but one of the big problems with the leak imo, is that Miranda's dialog does not make her motivations clear beyond simply caring about Oriana and wanting to protect her. Everything else is unfocused at best, completely absent at worst.

Modifié par flemm, 21 novembre 2011 - 12:12 .

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

I just hope that jtav didn't just give Bioware any ideas...to botch, that is.

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
The question I have about Cerberus is if the differing philosophies about the organization's goals exists. Miranda says herself that many people join out of xenophobia, but I wonder if we'll see operatives who aren't homicidal, mass-murderers like Kai Leng or characters like Gavin Archer.

I suspect we'll see more of that in ME3. And I think Miranda wouldn't have stayed had there been too many types like Kai Leng or the people who ran the Teltin facility. Also, you can say many things about the Illusive Man, but I don't think he's a xenophobe. He may be ruthless in his pursuit of human advancement, and he may see the other species as rivals of humanity, but let's face it, that's what they are, among other things.

[jtav]

I have the strong suspicion that the writers don't think much of Miranda's belief in human advancement. They're an error she must correct for one reason or another. It's her love for Oriana that's good and important. The cause, even the preservation of the galaxy is secondary to her personal problems. Fortunately for my blood pressure, they seem to be conveying it via omission rather than anything she does or says directly.

[CrutchCricket]

alperez wrote...

CrutchCricket

"I think we're reaching a consensus"

Is it wrong i pictured you saying that in legion's voice lol

It's not just right, it's mandatory;)

jtav wrote...
I have the strong suspicion that the writers don't think much of Miranda's belief in human advancement. They're an error she must correct for one reason or another. It's her love for Oriana that's good and important. The cause, even the preservation of the galaxy is secondary to her personal problems. Fortunately for my blood pressure, they seem to be conveying it via omission rather than anything she does or says directly.

Again simplistic portrayal and understanding of a character. "Human advancement? Good heavens, that's what that dastardly Cerberus tried to do!"

Though I wonder if, talking about writers instead of fans, it's less of an agenda to push redemption and more thinking that the general fanbase wouldn't get those subtleties. Viewers are Morons perhaps?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 21 novembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I have the strong suspicion that the writers don't think much of Miranda's belief in human advancement. They're an error she must correct for one reason or another. It's her love for Oriana that's good and important. The cause, even the preservation of the galaxy is secondary to her personal problems. Fortunately for my blood pressure, they seem to be conveying it via omission rather than anything she does or says directly.

I have a similar impression overall, and it's odd. Not that her love for Oriana isn't good (it is), but to the exclusion of all else? That's not as good. It also doesn't really reflect what we see of the character in ME2. She cares about Oriana, but she cares about the cause and the mission of protecting humanity as well.

I'm not necessarily too hung up on the idea of "human advancement" per se being Miranda's objective, though it's a useful concept in opposition to "human domination." She should have her eye on the bigger picture, though, which means TIM and the Reapers.

Beyond that, we need to hear what she thinks. In ME2 she states clearly that she believes in Cerberus' cause and the organisation's ideals (as she understands them). If her views have changed, or if she doesn't believe in that cause anymore, then we should hear that. 

If the writers just want to have Miranda come right out and say that she thinks she was wrong, I'd personally prefer that to trying to dance around the issue.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Beyond that, we need to hear what she thinks. In ME2 she states clearly that she believes in Cerberus' cause and the organisation's ideals (as she understands them). If her views have changed, or if she doesn't believe in that cause anymore, then we should hear that. 

If the writers just want to have Miranda come right out and say that she thinks she was wrong, I'd personally prefer that to trying to dance around the issue.

I disagree. Her actions say loudly enough that she doesn't agree with Cerberus as it has become. If they make her say nothing more than that, her interpretation of Cerberus' cause is still up for our interpretation, and we have her belief in Cerberus' cause as she understood it from ME2 to fall back on. I prefer that to hearing it was *all* about protection of Oriana.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2011 - 04:58 .

[jtav]

I agree with Ieldra. Right now, we have an ambiguous situation. I can fill the gaps as I see fit. If the writers filled those gaps, it would almost certainly be "all about Oriana."

[Beard_of_Bees]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Again simplistic portrayal and understanding of a character. "Human advancement? Good heavens, that's what that dastardly Cerberus tried to do!"

Yes, the reducto ab hitlerum. Quite annoying when my Shep makes arguments like that (CB is another example). I hope Miranda does not adopt that logic.