82210 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

I don't think it being all about Oriana is on the table though. Doesn't that contradict ME2 info? She believed in some form of Cerberus goals. She makes that clear plenty of times.

[Beard_of_Bees]

Double post

Modifié par Beard_of_Bees, 21 novembre 2011 - 09:13 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I disagree. Her actions say loudly enough that she doesn't agree with Cerberus as it has become. If they make her say nothing more than that, her interpretation of Cerberus' cause is still up for our interpretation, and we have her belief in Cerberus' cause as she understood it from ME2 to fall back on. I prefer that to hearing it was *all* about protection of Oriana.

If the writers try to skirt the issue, we will end up with an appearance from Miranda that is incredibly vacuous. One in which, for example, it's unclear where she stands on the most important questions in the game. That would essentially eliminate what should be the most interesting aspect of Miranda's involvement: her relationship to her old organisation now that TIM's intentions have changed and/or been revealed.

The most damaging thing that could be done to Miranda would be for her not to have a clear opinion on something as massively important as that.

A comparable situation in ME2 would be Miranda not explaining why she was working with Cerberus in the first place.

Modifié par flemm, 21 novembre 2011 - 05:09 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I have the strong suspicion that the writers don't think much of Miranda's belief in human advancement. They're an error she must correct for one reason or another. It's her love for Oriana that's good and important. The cause, even the preservation of the galaxy is secondary to her personal problems. Fortunately for my blood pressure, they seem to be conveying it via omission rather than anything she does or says directly.

Actually I think we'll be hearing a little about that, though possibly less than we might like. But I have the same impression: if they touch that topic in, it'll likely be because of fan demand against the writers' original vision.

@CrutchCricket:
Indeed, that may also be a problem: that they don't believe that players get that the cause of human advancement is not automatically invalidated by Cerberus' methods.

@flemm:
I'll accept almost anything if it's about the big picture and not just personal. Though I'd find it implausible that she's made a complete reversal. But if the writers think it was all about Oriana, I prefer not to hear it.
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2011 - 05:12 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Actually I think we'll be hearing a little about that, though possibly less than we might like. But I have the same impression: if they touch that topic in, it'll likely be because of fan demand against the writers' original vision.

Well, given where Miranda's mission falls in the plot and the fact that... *spoiler* her father nows works for Cerberus I'm not sure avoiding it entirely is going to be possible.

Ieldra2 wrote...
@flemm:
I'll accept almost anything if it's about the big picture and not just personal. Though I'd find it implausible that she's made a complete reversal. But if the writers think it was all about Oriana, I prefer not to hear it.

Well, yeah. But what I'm saying is, we need to hear what she thinks about the big picture, and she should be partially focused on that side of things. We know we are going to be hearing about the personal side, that's a given at this point.

Modifié par flemm, 21 novembre 2011 - 05:15 .

[Dr. Doctor]

The thing that confuses me about the ME universe is that galactic civilization doesn't really have any sort of redeeming value to it. The Council seems to exist to give its members an advantage over the other races and maintain that status quo. The Alliance seems to place greater emphasis on appeasing the Council rather than working in the interests of humanity.

Galactic civilization finds the Reaper tech, calls it good and stagnates as a result. Science goes from being a beneficial force to being shown as something that threatens the galactic status quo. I consider Cerberus's ideology is that while we can learn and work alongside the other races humanity shouldn't always assume that our allies will always have our best interests in mind. Humanity needs to be able to choose its own path instead of having it dictated to us by groups such as the Council.

[CrutchCricket]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
The thing that confuses me about the ME universe is that galactic civilization doesn't really have any sort of redeeming value to it. The Council seems to exist to give its members an advantage over the other races and maintain that status quo. The Alliance seems to place greater emphasis on appeasing the Council rather than working in the interests of humanity.

Galactic civilization finds the Reaper tech, calls it good and stagnates as a result. Science goes from being a beneficial force to being shown as something that threatens the galactic status quo. I consider Cerberus's ideology is that while we can learn and work alongside the other races humanity shouldn't always assume that our allies will always have our best interests in mind. Humanity needs to be able to choose its own path instead of having it dictated to us by groups such as the Council.

I don't know. Given how much the Council fears war with the Terminus systems and how little f*cks they give about the Citadel, I really don't think the Council gives much of an advantage at all. Not to mention that the only superpower race we see in the Terminus systems are the Batarians which leads me to believe we should be talking to them about fighting the Reapers (at least I would believe that if they weren't all xenophobic dicks)
Speaking of which the quarians don't seem particularly impressed with the Council either and having the biggest fleet in the galaxy, the only reason they're not laying down the law is because they can't afford to since their entire species is on those ships. Of course if they patch things up with the geth I do believe we'll see some changes in management (if any cross-species galactic governments continue to exist at all)

Also I'm not sure stagnation applies to the whole of galactic society. Remember galactic society is not the same thing as Council space. Species not under Citadel restrictions would not necessarily fear studying the mass relays for example. I'd love to see the Terminus Systems roll out some new tech we haven't seen before.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 21 novembre 2011 - 07:17 .

[Vertigo_1]

twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/138704175528812544

"If we had been under such tough constraints on #ME3 that we supported only one love interest character, who would you choose?"

Basically a "who is your favorite LI" post.

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 21 novembre 2011 - 08:55 .

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
I consider Cerberus's ideology is that while we can learn and work alongside the other races humanity shouldn't always assume that our allies will always have our best interests in mind. Humanity needs to be able to choose its own path instead of having it dictated to us by groups such as the Council.

On the whole I think my opinion of the ME story (or one of them anyway) is going to be that it would have been more interesting overall if Cerberus had been portrayed along those lines, as a shade of grey rather than as a pure villain. It's ok that TIM turns out to be an antagonist, but it could be handled in such a way that the organisation itself isn't entirely demonized, or caricatured to the extent that it tends to be.

Modifié par flemm, 21 novembre 2011 - 09:00 .

[Eyeshield21]

I'm back!
So what Miranda debate or topic are we talking today?
Edit: never mind, I just read the last 2 pages of this thread.

Modifié par Eyeshield21, 21 novembre 2011 - 09:49 .

[Dr. Doctor]

@Vertigo
Well that's a difficult question. I like the majority of the romances except for Jacob's (Shepard's voice acting) and Tali's (Just a matter of personal taste, the relationship seems to be rather one-sided to me)

@Flemm

I agree, it seems like a waste to spend ME2 depicting Cerberus as being this morally ambiguous group only to have them be villans in ME3.

[CrutchCricket]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
@Flemm

I agree, it seems like a waste to spend ME2 depicting Cerberus as being this morally ambiguous group only to have them be villans in ME3.

That's if you agree that ME2 depicted Cerberus as being morally ambiguous. Frankly I think too much emphasis is placed on that term. It seems everyone on this thread wants everything to be that (slight exaggeration).

Frankly I'm much more in favor of the following: TIM is amoral and since Cerberus is his baby it too is amoral. However since it seems Cerberus means different things to different people (i.e. Miranda) we should see battling Cerberus factions once this all gets unravelled.

Villain status is therefore completely unrelated to these concerns.

[outmane]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...
@Flemm

I agree, it seems like a waste to spend ME2 depicting Cerberus as being this morally ambiguous group only to have them be villans in ME3.

That's if you agree that ME2 depicted Cerberus as being morally ambiguous. Frankly I think too much emphasis is placed on that term. It seems everyone on this thread wants everything to be that (slight exaggeration).

Frankly I'm much more in favor of the following: TIM is amoral and since Cerberus is his baby it too is amoral. However since it seems Cerberus means different things to different people (i.e. Miranda) we should see battling Cerberus factions once this all gets unravelled.

Villain status is therefore completely unrelated to these concerns.

Battleing factions within Cerberus, and the opportunity to press for one outcome or an other would be a very interesting (and interactive since this is a game) way to continue the cerberus story arc in ME3 now that Shep found out in ME2 that there might be people worth saving/fallowing/romancing in Cerberus. 

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Frankly I'm much more in favor of the following: TIM is amoral and since Cerberus is his baby it too is amoral. However since it seems Cerberus means different things to different people (i.e. Miranda) we should see battling Cerberus factions once this all gets unravelled.

I'm basically of the opinion that we should see something like that, yes. With Miranda heading, or attempting to organise, what would essentially be a rebellious Cerberus faction, or a splinter organisation, however you want to put it. At least, I think that's one of the interesting things that could be done.

I think that does imply a certain amount of ambiguity, though (just not necessarily  where TIM himself is concerned).

Modifié par flemm, 21 novembre 2011 - 10:11 .

[Dr. Doctor]

@Cricket

I agree that Cerberus has done monstrous things (Pragia, Overlord, the bases in ME1) but Miranda and people like Ken, Gabby, and the vast majority of the SR-2's crew show that not everyone who joins Cerberus is a xenophobe, or a mass-murderer.

My issue is that from the looks of it Cerberus gets reduced to being comic book villains in ME3.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
Frankly I'm much more in favor of the following: TIM is amoral and since Cerberus is his baby it too is amoral. However since it seems Cerberus means different things to different people (i.e. Miranda) we should see battling Cerberus factions once this all gets unravelled.

I'm basically of the opinion that we should see something like that, yes. With Miranda heading, or attempting to organise, what would essentially be a rebellious Cerberus faction, or a splinter organisation, however you want to put it. At least, I think that's one of the interesting things that could be done.

I think that does imply a certain amount of ambiguity, though (just not necessarily  where TIM himself is concerned).

There are at least two rebellious splinter groups as I understand it. Inexplicably, none of them led by Miranda. But unfortunately at this point, being a Cerberus renegade as such has lost much of the meaning it would've had in ME2. For apparently Cerberus has gone so far off the deep end that being rebellious is the reasonable thing to do for almost anyone. What I'd find important is for them to talk about it, and not reduce their rebellion to a variant of "What I did was wrong.".

Different factions would be interesting, but only if they represent different aspects or understandings ot the cause - and relate those different aspects to the player.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
There are at least two rebellious splinter groups as I understand it. Inexplicably, none of them led by Miranda.

Indeed. Well, one of the odd things about the leak is that Miranda seems to be working on her own, she seems to have some resources, and she seems to be at odds with Cerberus, but it's not clear at all where she stands, or what she's attempting to accomplish (beyond the personal).

I can see two possible reasons:

1) It's due to the incompleteness of the leak, and the exact direction Miranda will be taking with regard to the bigger picture was not fully ironed out at this stage.

2) It's intentionally non-committal because they don't have a clear direction for Miranda beyond her personal issues.

#1 may be true, of course. #2 would be unfortunate, since there are many interesting directions that could be taken.

Modifié par flemm, 21 novembre 2011 - 11:01 .

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...
There are at least two rebellious splinter groups as I understand it. Inexplicably, none of them led by Miranda.

It is very depressing that there doesn't seem to be any kind of Cerberus redemption arc. They seem to have gone with a TIM evil, Ceberus evil angle that is extremely dull. Having Miranda lead a  renegade Cerberus faction would both much more realistic and would open up the  possibility of renegade Shepherd's reforming TIM organisation post invasion.

[flemm]

wright1978 wrote...
It is very depressing that there doesn't seem to be any kind of Cerberus redemption arc. They seem to have gone with a TIM evil, Ceberus evil angle that is extremely dull. Having Miranda lead a  renegade Cerberus faction would both much more realistic and would open up the  possibility of renegade Shepherd's reforming TIM organisation post invasion.

Well, it would have been interesting. Barring that, somebody like Miranda would be driven to prove that TIM's Cerberus is not her Cerberus. That she stood for something different. And she wouldn't be the only one. So, that at least we should see.

[alperez]

While not a cerberus or Tim fan, i did think showing that there were people in the organisation like the crew on the normandy, jacob and particularly Miranda opened up so many possibilities on how the cerberus/tim arc would be handled in me3.

I mean most people expected some sort of betrayal by cerberus in me3 (given the nature of what we'd seen of the organisation in me1 and me2) but we also expected that the betrayal would encompass a splintering of the group and the reason for the betrayal would be more complex than just to turn them into generic villians.

Tim especially is the perfect example of how bad the writing of some parts of me3 are imo, you create a complex interesting possible antagonist and then rather than go where the complexity may take you, instead you basically give him a moustache to twirl, such a waste.

But i see that in a lot of the characters in me3, the VS and as it stands right now Miranda are imo both completely wasted opportunities, a little more forethought or time spent would have made things that much more interesting.

Seriously after Horizon the worst fears of the VS fans was that they'd go the route they seem to be with them in me3, they do something quite similar with Udina and seem to have no clue what to do with Miranda, as for TIm and cereberus i expected more.

A lot of it seems just too predicatable, it would have created so much more tension for someone else to do the VS's role, or for some other character to fill Udina's, Tim/cerberus imo should still have been morally ambigious right to the end of the game and by doing that it could have created an even bigger setup with Miranda, as it is its like here's everything you expected to happen on a plate, deal with it.

[flemm]

Well, where Miranda is concerned the leak is astonishingly lame, really. Mostly I'm just hoping for respectability at this point, in the finished product.

For TIM, it certainly seems like he was more interesting in ME2 than he's going to be in ME3.

I admit to not having paid as much attention to what is going on with the VS.

Modifié par flemm, 22 novembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[MisterJB]

Perhaps I just haven't read the right spoilers but, from what I did read, I failed to find a mustache on Harper's face.
Cerberus' methods appear to have gone off the deep end but the organization was previously portrayed as unwilling to look for better, albeit more complicated and time consuming, options. Project Overlord, Akuze, etc and this was during times of peace.
That, by itself, could be called a flaw on the writing team's part but, at least, they appear to remain consistent. Fortunately, Cerberus' endgame is still very much morally ambiguous which could and should have justified an option to join them again or, at least, to preserve as much of the organization as possible.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 novembre 2011 - 03:24 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

You guys are slacking off in the Miri Pics department AGAIN. 

I'm glad I'm here and on time.



:wub::wub:

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 22 novembre 2011 - 03:38 .

[alperez]

MisterJB

It's hard to really explain what i mean regarding TIM and cerberus without spoiling completely, so its probably better if i don't go too much further in this part of the discussion, rather than going too deep in it and spoiling something that some people haven't had spoiled yet, (i know that sounds a bit like i'm copping out, so feel free to think that's what i'm doing).

[alperez]

flemm

The vs fan's feel even worse than us Miranda fans, the only difference is they get the content, just not the type of content they actually wanted, seriously some of them would rather have another Horizon type cameo than what they're seeing in terms of the VS's role in me3.