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[CrutchCricket]

Oh good. Back to talking about the spoilers. Because that was so much fun last time...<_<

It's my impression that TIM with a moustache is one of those forum snowballing things that people just repeat with very little grounding in fact or reason. It's a meme almost. And with that in mind:

I don't have photoshop installed on this computer so either someone can do one better or I'll make a quality one later.

[MisterJB]

alperez wrote...

MisterJB

It's hard to really explain what i mean regarding TIM and cerberus without spoiling completely, so its probably better if i don't go too much further in this part of the discussion, rather than going too deep in it and spoiling something that some people haven't had spoiled yet, (i know that sounds a bit like i'm copping out, so feel free to think that's what i'm doing).

We have the Miranda Pre-Release spoiler group.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

It's my impression that TIM with a moustache is one of those forum snowballing things that people just repeat with very little grounding in fact or reason.

Well, I try to avoid using the term, because it's a bit imprecise, but basically it seems to be shorthand for TIM being portrayed as less enigmatic and complex than previously. Now, you've argued that he was not that ambiguous to begin with, which is potentially true, at least in retrospect. But the fact remains that the character and the organisation he represents could have been used differently in the narrative (less obviously as the bad guys).

As JB points out, there is actually some room for doubt in the lategame, but in a sense that makes the rest of the portrayal all the more disappointing. Now, we should always add the caveat that none of the is final, blablabla, but anyway, moustache or no, I do think there's some wasted potential for non-simplemindness in the way the story is unfolding.

It's relevant to Miranda because it seems likely to affect how she is involved in the story as well.

Modifié par flemm, 22 novembre 2011 - 05:01 .

[ODST 3]

Miranda is barren and no use to me. I just tell myself this to make her sidelining or death easier.

[CuseGirl]

just popping in and popping out.....i'm basically going ghost until March/April-ish when i can get the game, with all this talk of leak this and beta that, i dont wanna be spoiled.....

[Ieldra]

CuseGirl wrote...
just popping in and popping out.....i'm basically going ghost until March/April-ish when i can get the game, with all this talk of leak this and beta that, i dont wanna be spoiled.....

We're trying to avoid that, but it's not easy, since much of what we're discussing is informed by the spoilers.

@all:
As for TIM, as far as I'm concerned ME:Evolution has done quite a bit for his image. His ruthlessness becomes much more understandable once you realize that he'd known about the nameless menace that would come to be known as the Reapers all the time and that not knowing the shape that menace would take, he took every possible avenue to make humanity capable of withstanding it. Human dominance seems almost like an accidental benefit after that. Over time, his focus became narrower and he became the man who said that Cerberus and humanity are one and the same. I can see the psychological development: isolated from non-Cerberus humans for years by necessity, he stopped to care. The knowledge he had and that he knew no one would believe has most likely played a role, too. 

As for the earlier question of whether Miranda knew some of what TIM knew, I concur with those who said that it doesn't appear likely. She doesn't give off that vibe and I think she'd talk differently about TIM if she knew.

[Ieldra]

I'd like to restart a discussion we had a long time ago. Some of the newer regulars might not have seen it.

Do you think that Miranda, after she's reconciled with her origins, would use advanced reproductive technology, including genetic engineering, to have the biological offspring she can't have the normal way? This may or may not include offshoots of Lazarus or the technology her father used. It may also be - in fact, it should be - much simpler than these.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[jtav]

I think she should. It shows she's finally drawing a distinction between her gifts and the abuse she suffered. As much as I hate the technology that created her, her using it would be the perfect closure to her story arc. I don't think we'll get it though.

[Dariansarr]

Have you guys seen the Mass Effect 3 Collector Edition unboxing video?

[jtav]

What about it. Nothing Miranda that I can see.

[Dariansarr]

Nope i thought i saw something about a secret character/ bonus mission. it would be cool if Miranda is the secret character.

Modifié par Dariansarr, 22 novembre 2011 - 02:07 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Well, I try to avoid using the term, because it's a bit imprecise, but basically it seems to be shorthand for TIM being portrayed as less enigmatic and complex than previously. Now, you've argued that he was not that ambiguous to begin with, which is potentially true, at least in retrospect. But the fact remains that the character and the organisation he represents could have been used differently in the narrative (less obviously as the bad guys).

As JB points out, there is actually some room for doubt in the lategame, but in a sense that makes the rest of the portrayal all the more disappointing. Now, we should always add the caveat that none of the is final, blablabla, but anyway, moustache or no, I do think there's some wasted potential for non-simplemindness in the way the story is unfolding.

It's relevant to Miranda because it seems likely to affect how she is involved in the story as well.

"Obvious" is not the same thing as "simple". The Reapers are obvious villains. They are far from simple. And "villain" is just a point of view really, it's just the guy that opposes our hero or the things he represents. "Villain" is a character class that anything can fill from a cardboard cutout to a real compex human being. It shouldn't be confused with the characterization of said entity as villain status adds or detracts nothing intrinsic from its character.

Yes I've argued that he's not ambiguous, though if we're going that route I can add that nobody we know anything concrete about is ambigous at all. The term "morally ambiguous" seems to be a placeholder used on here to say " this character doesn't subscribe to the common society-pushed morality". Which is fine but why stop there? There are plenty of ways you can peg down a character's moral beliefs and plenty of alternate defined ethical theories you can argue apply to any character you wish. Just saying "they're morally ambiguous" actually feels like a cop-out, like you're denying they should be held to common morality but are afraid to define just what they should be held to, like any moral status would demean them in some way. I say go for it, define them to any morality you want. And if they don't fit any of them or are outside/against morality in general, that makes them amoral (as in the case of TIM).

I don't mean to imply anything about anyone here. This is probably another one of those forum snowballing things. But I would say let's agree to do away with the terms "morally ambigous" and "TIM with moustache" since they are inaccurate and unfounded.

Ieldra2 wrote...
@all:
As for TIM, as far as I'm concerned ME:Evolution has done quite a bit for his image. His ruthlessness becomes much more understandable once you realize that he'd known about the nameless menace that would come to be known as the Reapers all the time and that not knowing the shape that menace would take, he took every possible avenue to make humanity capable of withstanding it. Human dominance seems almost like an accidental benefit after that. Over time, his focus became narrower and he became the man who said that
Cerberus and humanity are one and the same. I can see the psychological development: isolated from non-Cerberus humans for years by necessity, he stopped to care. The knowledge he had and that he knew no one would believe has most likely played a role, too. 

My only problem with this description is that it again makes it seem like he "fell into" his current state as opposed to choosing it willingly and embracing it. It's probably just the wording.

I think TIM doesn't see human dominance as just a side effect but a requirement. I'm not talking taking over for the evulz. But I'm thinking he's looking at the state of the galaxy and no other species is really ready to fight the Reapers. The council races are all complacent and unwilling to step up, the quarians have a powerful fleet but they won't risk it since their entire race is on it, the geth are unreachable and for a time percieved as the enemy, the krogan are decimated, the rachni are extinct etc. Humanity is the only species that can step up and face this threat. They can't do it alone so they need to draw on the strength of the other races. Hence TIM and Cerberus need to marshall this strength.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 22 novembre 2011 - 02:12 .

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd like to restart a discussion we had a long time ago. Some of the newer regulars might not have seen it.

Do you think that Miranda, after she's reconciled with her origins, would use advanced reproductive technology, including genetic engineering, to have the biological offspring she can't have the normal way? This may or may not include offshoots of Lazarus or the technology her father used. It may also be - in fact, it should be - much simpler than these.

Why can't she have it the normal way? I thought we had agreed a scientific cure is more than likely available in the ME universe. Of course if it's not I don't see why she wouldn't. And is "using advanced reproductive technology" including curing her infertility then going about it the normal way? Regardless this seems obvious.

[Dariansarr]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd like to restart a discussion we had a long time ago. Some of the newer regulars might not have seen it.

Do you think that Miranda, after she's reconciled with her origins, would use advanced reproductive technology, including genetic engineering, to have the biological offspring she can't have the normal way? This may or may not include offshoots of Lazarus or the technology her father used. It may also be - in fact, it should be - much simpler than these.

Don't you think she resents genitic modification because of what happend to her?

[jtav]

She does, but that resentment is a flaw, not a virtue to some. Including me, to a degree.

[Dariansarr]

I'm sure that she can have children withoutgenetic modification, i mean its the year 2185.
Besides i think that if you let Mordin loose on the problem it would be fixed in no time

Modifié par Dariansarr, 22 novembre 2011 - 02:48 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
"Obvious" is not the same thing as "simple". The Reapers are obvious villains. They are far from simple. And "villain" is just a point of view really, it's just the guy that opposes our hero or the things he represents. "Villain" is a character class that anything can fill from a cardboard cutout to a real compex human being. It shouldn't be confused with the characterization of said entity as villain status adds or detracts nothing intrinsic from its character.

Well, if we cut down on the verbiage a bit, and eliminate the semantic quibbling, I think we can establish that "villains" or "bad guys" can be more or less complex, just as they can be portrayed as more or less purely/gratuitously evil. You seem to agree with this.

So, to return to the original point, TIM can be portrayed as a more or less interesting and complex antagonist, potentially.

What people are pointing out about his portrayal is ME3 is that he is less interesting than he might otherwise have been.

CrutchCricket wrote...
Yes I've argued that he's not ambiguous, though if we're going that route I can add that nobody we know anything concrete about is ambigous at all.

Wait... I don't think this makes sense at all, actually. Just because we have some concrete information doesn't mean all ambiguity has been eliminated.

As for any given character necessarily fitting in some pre-determined moral category, or being classifiable as "amoral," well, I don't think that's accurate either. There's obviously a lot of social pressure on individuals to conform to pre-established norms, and on characters to do so as well, in one way or another, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of non-conformity, or of individual/unique perspectives on morality.

Modifié par flemm, 22 novembre 2011 - 02:58 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Well, if we cut down on the verbiage a bit, and eliminate the semantic quibbling, I think we can establish that "villains" or "bad guys" can be more or less complex, just as they can be portrayed as more or less purely/gratuitously evil. You seem to agree with this.

So, to return to the original point, TIM can be portrayed as a more or less interesting and complex antagonist, potentially. What people are pointing out about his portrayal is ME3 is that he is less interesting than he might otherwise have been.

Ah. That's fine then. Other than the cautionary "it's not finalized line" I have nothing more to add to this. But it was the "semantic quibbling"  that started this with the whole "moustache" and "comic book villain" phrases being thrown around. And are all comic book villains really that one-dimensional that invoking that class is synonymous with "no depth"? But that's straying too far...

Wait... I don't think this makes sense at all, actually. Just because we have some concrete information doesn't mean all ambiguity has been eliminated.

As for any given character necessarily fitting in some pre-determined moral category, or being classifiable as "amoral," well, I don't think that's accurate either. There's obviously a lot of social pressure on individuals to conform to pre-established norms, and on characters to do so as well, in one way or another, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of non-conformity, or of individual/unique perspectives on morality.

I meant that if we have concrete information on their actions we can begin to speculate more accurately on their morality than just calling them "ambiguous". Poor wording, I apologize.

You also seem to misinterpret me as saying "we should stuff them in only one category". Certainly not. What I'm saying is actually... well the the first sentence of this reply- if we have data we can identify more about their morality to some extent (or posit that they have none). My problem is that simply sticking a "morally ambiguous" label on a character just says they're non-conforming. And I think the problems with calling "non-conformity" a virtue are obvious.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I think she should. It shows she's finally drawing a distinction between her gifts and the abuse she suffered. As much as I hate the technology that created her, her using it would be the perfect closure to her story arc. I don't think we'll get it though.

That's what I was thinking.

It needn't even be the same technology her father used. This technological parthenogenesis her father initiated wouldn't be necessary. I have a neutral opinion of it, but I don't think she'd change her opinion of that being egomaniacal. But using elements of it to be able to have biological offspring at all, including genetic modifications to remove any genetic infertility in her children, maybe a little more here and there, that I can see.  

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd like to restart a discussion we had a long time ago. Some of the newer regulars might not have seen it.

Do you think that Miranda, after she's reconciled with her origins, would use advanced reproductive technology, including genetic engineering, to have the biological offspring she can't have the normal way? This may or may not include offshoots of Lazarus or the technology her father used. It may also be - in fact, it should be - much simpler than these.

I wonder if her not wanting to would be something of an ego issue, in that she's upset about her being imperfect in that way and would want to have a child via her own capabilities. Not that I think she's incapable of getting past that, though considering how many things are happening in this game, I doubt it'll be covered.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd like to restart a discussion we had a long time ago. Some of the newer regulars might not have seen it.

Do you think that Miranda, after she's reconciled with her origins, would use advanced reproductive technology, including genetic engineering, to have the biological offspring she can't have the normal way? This may or may not include offshoots of Lazarus or the technology her father used. It may also be - in fact, it should be - much simpler than these.

Why can't she have it the normal way? I thought we had agreed a scientific cure is more than likely available in the ME universe. Of course if it's not I don't see why she wouldn't. And is "using advanced reproductive technology" including curing her infertility then going about it the normal way? Regardless this seems obvious.

A cure might not be possible if the cause is genetic. It's possible the best she could do is circumvent the infertility by advanced technology, while removing the genetic flaw causing infertility from her gametes.

[Beard_of_Bees]

If we are taking the immersion-breaking SB files as cannon and Miranda is keen on having a child then yes. My Shep would be happy with that, though as pointed out before it should be optional.

It would be interesting what type of child she would want. A "perfect" one? Or a randomised mix of genes?

Presumably not a clone of herself, but a combination of her and her partner's genes.

[CrutchCricket]

Immersion breaking? Why do you say that?

[Beard_of_Bees]

I felt it was too jokey. Grunt's in particular I disliked.

Miranda's chat stuff also was bad. Not the idea of it, I have no problem with Miranda wanting to hook up for sex. But if it is for a kid why not a sperm bank? Much easier. Seemed like it was just used to put some funny chat lines in. Which broke my immersion.

Also some of the chat with Oriana felt too forced, but that is a minor thing.