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[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...
[...]

 I also don't subscribe to the notion that there is an amazing change between that Miranda and the Miranda we see aboard the Normandy.

Nor I. Shepard has a agreed to play along and is doing a competant job. They've also fought together by then. Continuing to antagonise her/him would be counter-productive.

Miranda's dialog makes it clear that she responds differently because they've been working together (with some success). "I guess that's fair." There's a difference, but it's a natural progression in the context of what's happened in the interim.

[JosephDucreux]

I for one found Miranda's character progression rushed. They should've taken more time to add in, say, a couple more dialogs before she warms up. That way, it would feel more natural and would eliminate the somewhat unnecessary argument that Miranda goes schizo on the Normandy.

[alperez]

Have to agree with both Flemm and Jb on Miranda's character progression making perfect sense, the only part that feels rushed or missing a previous dialogue for it to make more sense is the end on the collector's base.

Personally i feel that dialogue should have taken place after the ambush on the CS, a little conversation there where Shepard really lays into TIM creating a bit of doubt on Miranda's part would have played nicely into the endgame on the base and would make her line to Tim work no matter how you played the game imo, also i feel that they should have made it mandatory that Shepard brought Miranda to the final battle anyway.

I mean Tim sets Shepard up to do his bidding, puts Miranda in a position to if needed make sure that bidding is done, then we get to the crux of the whole situation and Miranda doesn't even need to be there doesn't really make sense to me, also its not like they didn't force us to bring squadmates on missions previously in me2.

[Ieldra]

alperez wrote...
Have to agree with both Flemm and Jb on Miranda's character progression making perfect sense

The problem is that you can get the first conversation on the Normandy right after you acquire the ship. That's half an hour play time between the two conversations. That feels jarring. It works only if you put one or two more missions between them.

the only part that feels rushed or missing a previous dialogue for it to make more sense is the end on the collector's base.

It's out of character, that's all. And it wouldn't be less so if framed in more conversation.

...also i feel that they should have made it mandatory that Shepard brought Miranda to the final battle anyway. [...]I mean Tim sets Shepard up to do his bidding, puts Miranda in a position
to if needed make sure that bidding is done, then we get to the crux of
the whole situation and Miranda doesn't even need to be there doesn't
really make sense to me, also its not like they didn't force us to bring
squadmates on missions previously in me2.

Heh.....can you hear the complaints of "Miranda is forced on us"? Sure, they forced us to bring team members on missions before, but never on main plot missions (Freedom's Progress is different because you didn't have more than two at that time). I agree it would have made sense story-wise, but I guess they thought it wasn't worth the cost in player agency.

[JosephDucreux]

Ieldra2 wrote...

the only part that feels rushed or missing a previous dialogue for it to make more sense is the end on the collector's base.

It's out of character, that's all. And it wouldn't be less so if framed in more conversation.

It will not be out of character. It will all depend on what is in that conversation.

[CrutchCricket]

I would add some internal emotional distress as motivation for Miranda's initial coldness. Possible reasons for such distress include:

• Loss of personnel on Lazarus base. Even though she says they're expendable I don't think she's completely calloused about her people (it wouldn't make her a good leader), plus since she's not sure it was worth it to begin with, she may feel like a lot of good Cerberus people were wasted for a gain that's questionable at best.
• Wilson being a traitor under her nose the entire time- maybe she's berating herself for not seeing it sooner.
• Shepard immediately getting an audience with TIM + control chip request denied. Is he becoming the new favorite?

As well once we're on the Normandy I don't see it as instant warming up. She has to work with him as her captain no less (at least as far as the ship is concerned) so she may very adopt a more neutral attitude simply because it would be counterproductive to be cold and stand-offish all the time. And if I remember correctly she can still snap at him if he pushes too far. Plus the fact that he agreed to work with Cerberus does help.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
That's half an hour play time between the two conversations. That feels jarring. It works only if you put one or two more missions between them.

Well, the player can always wait. But the significant moment has already happened: Shepard is playing along, the first mission has gone well, they have some concrete info on the collectors for the first time, the Normandy is now under Shepard's command...

So, I think it makes sense for the next dialog to be available right away. In the first dialog, Miranda's just being honest. In the second dialog, it would be more about resentment or bitterness. So, I prefer that she just lets it go once the mission is underway and allows the relationship to become more amicable. To me that is more in character for her.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Heh.....can you hear the complaints of "Miranda is forced on us"? Sure, they forced us to bring team members on missions before, but never on main plot missions (Freedom's Progress is different because you didn't have more than two at that time). I agree it would have made sense story-wise, but I guess they thought it wasn't worth the cost in player agency.

Probably. While it makes sense for her to be there, I don't really see any reason to force it on the player at that point.

Modifié par flemm, 23 novembre 2011 - 02:40 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
That's half an hour play time between the two conversations. That feels jarring. It works only if you put one or two more missions between them.

Well, the player can always wait. But the significant moment has already happened: Shepard is playing along, the first mission has gone well, they have some concrete info on the collectors for the first time, the Normandy is now under Shepard's command...

So, I think it makes sense for the next dialog to be available right away. In the first dialog, Miranda's just being honest. In the second dialog, it would be more about resentment or bitterness. So, I prefer that she just lets it go once the mission is underway and allows the relationship to become more amicable. To me that is more in character for her.

Hmm.....makes sense. To think that some new interpretation could change my mind about this after almost two years of knowing Miranda. Astonishing.

[Ieldra]

Here's an interesting thing about Miranda that came up on another thread:

SilentX said that he read Miranda's genetic engineering, particular in combination with her father's plans, as a comment on class divisions. If you think of Mr.Lawson's plans of a genetic dynasty, the connection appears obvious, but I never thought any more about it than that.

Read it that way, and then play ME2 with an Earthborn Shepard (a lower-class origin is implied in this backstory), and play Miranda's romance in the version with the kiss, and you get the comment "Given your genetic records, you're practically a bloody perfect human specimen"). I found that a nice subversion, and it also sheds light on one reason why I like this version so much:

In the Paragon romance, Shepard tells her "....you're human, just like the rest of us". While this is certainly true psychologically (mostly) and in intrinsic worth (completely), it downplays the fact that Miranda's enhancements are a significant step above the average human template nonetheless. It draws her down to everyone else and makes this statement a symbol of stagnation. While Miranda's comment raises everyone else - in the person of Earthborn Shepard - up to her level by saying that *he* is not so different from *her*, making this statement a symbol of advancement.

Any thoughts about this?

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
In the Paragon romance, Shepard tells her "....you're human, just like the rest of us". While this is certainly true psychologically (mostly) and in intrinsic worth (completely), it downplays the fact that Miranda's enhancements are a significant step above the average human template nonetheless. It draws her down to everyone else and makes this statement a symbol of stagnation. While Miranda's comment raises everyone else - in the person of Earthborn Shepard - up to her level by saying that *he* is not so different from *her*, making this statement a symbol of advancement.

Any thoughts about this?

Usually I dislike looking for or discussing "social messages" in my entertainment. But as to Shepard's line I don't think he's dragging her down at all. I believe the line is meant precisely in the psychological and value appreciation way you already acknowledge. But if you must look for symbolism in this comparison I think it speaks more to the nature vs nurture debate than to advancement vs stagnation. The way you can read into that is just as likely to ****** you off though. Miranda was designed but still makes mistakes. Shepard is natural and is the hero everyone loves. But I don't like to look at it that way and I'm not sure that was the intent.

Ultimately there is a "human condition" that is very much a limit on how much an individual can accomplish. Miranda may be highly advanced but she is still human. Perfection is all well and good as a goal but ridiculous as an expectation. Because imperfection I would argue is part of that human condition. To go beyond that is to go beyond being human. Which may be desirable but then the question becomes can you relate back to the imperfect little people? And would you even want to?

Anyway I believe the symbolic intent of that line was just to reaffirm that limit and to actually put them on even grounding. Miranda's genetics shouldn't put her too much over Shepard any more than Shepard's accomplishments should put him over her.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Any thoughts about this?

Shockingly, yes

I should probably preface this by saying that Miranda's genetic enhancements are not really the main thing that interests me about the character. It's a nice additional aspect, but if her background were rewritten so that the psychological side of things remained intact, but the enhancements were removed, I'd probably like the character just about as much.

With that in mind, I've never been that preoccupied by that side of things, and especially not with the idea that the enhancements were intended to be a "commentary" on something... "something" I guess being eugenics, with the negative associations that are attached to that, or class stratification that could result from genetic modifications being available to only the privileged few. The second idea is really more interesting than the first. But I also think it's less likely to have been in the forefront of the writers' minds.

I think it would be unfortunate if Miranda became a pretext for a commentary on how bad genetic engineering is (which could happen if the writers focus too much on #1). Not much more to be said there, other than it would strike me as a bit of a simplistic and dated view to take.

#2 could actually be really interesting, if Miranda ended up being in favor of a more egalitarian use of genetic enhancements than advocated by her father. But that's all a little... I don't know... tangential to the main ME story, so I'm not sure how far the writers could actually go in that direction.

So, I guess my reaction is: I don't think that was a main focus conceptually, but it's a interesting point that could be brought up in ME3. Mostly I hope the writers don't try to make Miranda a "commentary" on anything, but stick to the character's journey, which should be about embracing who she is, while rejecting her father's methods (and likely ideology as well).

Modifié par flemm, 23 novembre 2011 - 05:46 .

[Ieldra]

@CrutchCricket:
I don't agree that the Paragon version puts them on even grounding. Shepard comes across as quite a bit "more" because it doesn't acknowledge that her enhancements were instrumental in making some of her achievements possible - just the same as Shepard's luck in the genetic lottery and his enhancements by Lazarus laid the groundwork for some of his achievements. Of course that they actually did something impressive with the gifts nature and technology had given them counts for more than their mere presence, but that doesn't make them inconsequential.
(And even should I concede the point, the Renegade version makes them equal on a higher level. Which is why I prefer it.)

Also I do not agree that it's a comment about imperfection being a part of the human condition. While that's certainly true, it's also trivial. Miranda herself affirms it in an earlier conversation, and it doesn't need to be repeated. I wish the whole "perfection" angle hadn't been brought in, that's why I always speak of improvement - which is always possible and always desirable, both genetically and in actual achievement.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
#2 could actually be really interesting, if Miranda ended up being in favor of a more egalitarian use of genetic enhancements than advocated by her father. But that's all a little... I don't know... tangential to the main ME story, so I'm not sure how far the writers could actually go in that direction.

The possibility of that is something I always wanted to be acknowledged, even if in nothing more than a short line.

So, I guess my reaction is: I don't think that was a main focus conceptually, but it's a interesting point that could be brought up in ME3. Mostly I hope the writers don't try to make Miranda a "commentary" on anything, but stick to the character's journey, which should be about embracing who she is, while rejecting her father's methods (and likely ideology as well).

Definitely, but that cannot be done without taking a stance on her genetic improvements, because they are part of who she is. I think we've had that discussion some time back when we debated how Miranda should phrase her answer to her father's challenge: "You'd be nothing without me".

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@CrutchCricket:
I don't agree that the Paragon version puts them on even grounding. Shepard comes across as quite a bit "more" because it doesn't acknowledge that her enhancements were instrumental in making some of her achievements possible -

"You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts. But you can be proud of what you've done with them" acknowledges it and it's the actual counterpart to "perfect bloody human specimen". So, a much more fair comparision.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Also I do not agree that it's a comment about imperfection being a part of the human condition. While that's certainly true, it's also trivial. Miranda herself affirms it in an earlier conversation, and it doesn't need to be repeated.

That part of Miranda's characterization is all over the place.
"I'm never wrong, Jacob...later on the Normandy...I make mistakes like everyone else."

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

We NEED to see REAL ME3 screenshots/concept art for Miri. I'm tired of feeling left in the dark.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Definitely, but that cannot be done without taking a stance on her genetic improvements, because they are part of who she is. I think we've had that discussion some time back when we debated how Miranda should phrase her answer to her father's challenge: "You'd be nothing without me".

Agreed. Well, one thing seems pretty clear: the writers will not be avoiding this particular issue in ME3.

I've made this point before, but I think it's an aspect of Miranda that's perhaps not discussed enough: to the extent she was meant to be a commentary on anything in particular, I think it was on the process of creating a character like her. She's a sort of deconstruction of the sexy female lead: created according to a specific male's definition of perfection (father=creator=game developer), she struggles to escape that heritage, and ultimately does (or so it would appear).

Even the whole business about her father discarding previous versions of the template until he found one he wanted to keep is reminiscent of the creative process that produces these characters: various ideas and sketches are discarded until one is kept.

So, the confrontation with the father is also Miranda confronting her creator(s), in a sense. I expect that Bioware is aware of this aspect of the character, as it is the kind of thing the creators themselves are more likely to notice than fans. Anyway... it will be interesting, to say the least.

[jtav]

One thing ME3 spoilers have me appreciating is that you can be an absolute jerk to Miranda if you wish. Yes, she can be your best friend and love of your life, but you can have an antagonistic relationship right to the end. Choose a bad FT1 leader and she'll get in your face. She doesn't respect you, and obviously so. And you can be cold to her in return. There's no forced friendship. Which means actual love and friendship have a meaning they wouldn't if she was automatically your most trusted advisor.

Modifié par jtav, 23 novembre 2011 - 07:08 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
So, the confrontation with the father is also Miranda confronting her creator(s), in a sense. I expect that Bioware is aware of this aspect of the character, as it is the kind of thing the creators themselves are more likely to notice than fans. Anyway... it will be interesting, to say the least.

So that's why Miranda has been scarse so far...the writers don't want to face the music yet:P

On a more serious note I believe every fictional character would hate their creators (except perhaps Mary Sues). Though not the height of intellectuality this is touched upon in Last Action Hero (but then what trope isn't deconstructed/ lampshaded in that movie?)

Though I do wonder who they'd hate more? The writer who thought them up? Or the fans they were thought up for?

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Also I do not agree that it's a comment about imperfection being a part of the human condition. While that's certainly true, it's also trivial. Miranda herself affirms it in an earlier conversation, and it doesn't need to be repeated. I wish the whole "perfection" angle hadn't been brought in, that's why I always speak of improvement - which is always possible and always desirable, both genetically and in actual achievement.

The reason the paragon line doesn't bother me is that it's never felt to me like it's about putting Miranda down... It's more the opposite, really: she's been putting herself down, and the point of Shepard's line is that she should stop beating herself up over every little mistake.

Where I agree with you is the emphasis on "perfection" being somewhat misguided. Not sure what that would even mean, except as hyperbole. It's more a Citius, Altius, Fortius thing, or at least it should be. But, from that point of view, I think the renegade line is actually a bit questionable.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Though I do wonder who they'd hate more? The writer who thought them up? Or the fans they were thought up for?

As a rule, I think characters would like their fans more. The writers put them through hell, but the fans want the best for them. Not all writers want their characters to come out well, or alive, but usually all fans want that.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Where I agree with you is the emphasis on "perfection" being somewhat misguided. Not sure what that would even mean, except as hyperbole. It's more a Citius, Altius, Fortius thing, or at least it should be. But, from that point of view, I think the renegade line is actually a bit questionable.

If you want to read it that way, yes (Oh, the intricacies of interpretation). I choose to read "perfect" as an elative, in a similar way you can say "most capable" and actually mean "extremely capable".

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
If you want to read it that way, yes (Oh, the intricacies of interpretation). I choose to read "perfect" as an elative, in a similar way you can say "most capable" and actually mean "extremely capable".

Yeah, I guess in that context in particular, it doesn't feel like it's supposed to be taken literally.

[outmane]

jtav wrote...

One thing ME3 spoilers have me appreciating is that you can be an absolute jerk to Miranda if you wish. Yes, she can be your best friend and love of your life, but you can have an antagonistic relationship right to the end. Choose a bad FT1 leader and she'll get in your face. She doesn't respect you, and obviously so. And you can be cold to her in return. There's no forced friendship. Which means actual love and friendship have a meaning they wouldn't if she was automatically your most trusted advisor.

I really like what you said there. It means my canon FemShep will be able to keep Miranda at arm lenght (i hope its the right english expression) while the MShep I made for Miranda will be able to appreciate her. the whole thing might make replaying the game with a diffrent Shep more rewarding and in character . I recall recruiting Garrus with my earthcentrist Shep... that was quite the surprise to see him cry for a turian.

I think Miranda makes an awsome rival becaus you have to recognize she is efficient even if she rubs your Shep the wrong way with her personality and morals. Im happy Bioware recognizes that and lets the player antagonize her. Hopefully it can be done in a respectful way and come out as 2 highly efficient leaders butting heads instead of something petty like the Jack/Miri altercation.

[alperez]

Ieldra2

I know you personally dislike the betrayal line and I'm assuming you dislike what Miranda's actions in relation to both TIM and cerberus are on the CB if you play a certain way, to you that's ooc and i can understand that and accept it.

My point was that one more conversation, particularly after the CS ambush is imo all it would need for those actions and that line to be in character, now i'm really no good at writing dialogue so i won't try, but i'll instead try and give a sense of what i mean.

Pre Shepard, everything Miranda has done has been under cerberus's rules, they are in essence an end's justify the means organisation, now while we don't know how much of the worst of their activities Miranda's aware of, we do get little clues, especially on Pragia.

She seems unaware or disbelieving that Tim could have known or could have authorised what went on in pragia, so she completely defends cerberus and Tim's position, however 2 things do imo bother her, 1. what they're doing on Pragia is in some aspects similar to what her father wanted from her, creating a perfect human (on pragia its a perfect biotic but its similar enough) and even though she believes TIM knows nothing about what went on there, she does know it was a cerberus facility which does in some ways make cerberus responsible for what goes on there.

So imo this plants seeds of doubt, maybe minor ones, but ones that up until that point she may not have had at all.

Later on we get the CS ship ambush, while the pragmatic side of her would probably agree with TIM's reasoning, the personal side of her would still be left with knowing that not only would TIM lie to Shepard, but to her as well, that not only was TIM willing to risk Shepard's life but her's as well.

Now while she signed up for a suicide mission, she also believed that TIM is completely trustworthy and that while he would risk her life he wouldn't do so while withholding info that could lessen that risk.

Again creating more seeds of doubt, in both TIM and cerberus as a whole since they are basically one and the same after all.

We then have Shepard him/herself, for the first time Miranda's working under non cerberus authority, she's seeing how things can be accomplished not by following cerberus protocol but by working with someone who does not.

Again this creates seeds of doubt, into whether or not the cerberus way is the right way imo.

All of these things added up, would then only need certain prodding from Shepard in a conversation to really force her to confront something she's never had to before then, whether or not Cerberus and TIM's way of doing things is how things really need to be done in order to achieve the goals that she herself has.

So we get to the CB and again we're faced with a situation where Miranda's own life and what's being done to the people on the CB have a similar parallel. People are being used to create what someone else thinks is genetic perfection for their own selfish reasons, to me this alone is enough to give her pause and force her to think whether or not handing the base over to Tim is actually a good idea.

But when added to the events she's gone through with Shepard, then it becomes a line in the sand Miranda cannot cross imo.

The problem though is we're missing one conversation where Shepard would truly enforce whatever doubt Miranda may be having before this, so rather than know exactly where her head is at, we have to try and work it out for ourselves, leading to differing views and a different take on both the line she uses and her actions.

[Ieldra]

alperez,

My problem is not so much with Miranda's recommendation to destroy the base as such. The implausibility of that could have been solved by an additional conversation or two as you say, though it would've had to take place after the romance scene where she defends Cerberus. My problem is with what she actually *says* to justify it "...using anything from this base seems like a betrayal". I say there is no saving this line from being out of character.

I have explained this so many times...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 novembre 2011 - 06:01 .