82210 réponses à ce sujet

[alperez]

Ieldra.

Rather than run the risk of turning this into a discussion on something you've already discussed previously (i didn't all your previous posts on this i'm embarrassed to say), we may have to agree to disagree.

I can see why its ooc, i also see why it can be in character, so i'm probably coming in with a different viewpoint anyway and i doubt anything i say will change yours (damn that sounded harsh, so not meant to btw).

So we'll move on instead.

[Dr. Doctor]

The issue of the betrayal line is that no context is given to who or what is being betrayed. If it was say "It seems like it would be a betrayal of what Cerberus stands for" or something along those lines would work better that what is there now. As it stands the line really lacks the impact that Bioware might have been trying to achieve.

Personally I keep the base in my playthroughs. In real life I'm an engineer, to me the technology from the base could have applications that could benefit humanity. Its just a tool it has no real morality, that issue lies in the the intentions of those who use it.

[alperez]

Doc

I agree the context is missing which is why i believe if there had been just one more conversation between Shepard and Miranda, then it could have created that context so when the line was actually used it would have worked no matter what.

As for the base, i've explained the moral reasons which enforce my personal opinion on why it should be destroyed, i do agree though the base itself is just a tool and its one of the bones of contention i have with the choice itself.

The morality belongs not with keeping the base but in handing it over to cerberus, the problem is that they don't emphasise enough that, so we're left with a morally ambigious choice and need to come to our own moral reasoning for keeping or destroying it.

I think it should have been a hand the base to cerberus or someone else choice and the destroying one should have been off the table, the problem again though is if handled this way it puts the choice too much into perspecitve, so we get the other option instead.

[Ieldra]

alperez wrote...
The morality belongs not with keeping the base but in handing it over to cerberus, the problem is that they don't emphasise enough that, so we're left with a morally ambigious choice and need to come to our own moral reasoning for keeping or destroying it.

I think it should have been a hand the base to cerberus or someone else choice and the destroying one should have been off the table, the problem again though is if handled this way it puts the choice too much into perspecitve, so we get the other option instead.

The underlying problem is that the Paragon dialogue between Shepard, TIM and Miranda is based on the idea that the base should be destroyed because of what was done there, as if we should punish a tool for what people did with it. That's almost uncontrovertibly made clear with what Paragon Shepard says, and Miranda's line (very, very plain by the "anything") echoes it. That's not moral reasoning, that's a knee-jerk emotional reaction that sends my bullsh*t detector off the scale, and I cannot believe for a second that Miranda would buy into it. "The mission is too important to let personal feelings interfere", remember?

Is it too much to expect to let Miranda have at least a *rational* moral reason to recommend destroying the base? The way it's done it pure knee-jerk sentimentality, and whatever you think about such things in general, that is *not* Miranda.

I agree with you that the problem is not keeping the base but handing it to TIM, but they didn't just not empathize that problem, they ignored it completely with Miranda. They switched cause and effect: an earlier established distrust of TIM's motivations and goals should have been the reason for her to recommend destroying the base, instead the game presents the wish to keep the base, which is a strategic no-brainer without distrust of TIM already in the picture, as a reason to distrust TIM.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 novembre 2011 - 06:59 .

[CuseGirl]

Ieldra2 wrote...
That's not moral reasoning, that's a knee-jerk emotional reaction that sends my bullsh*t detector off the scale, and I cannot believe for a second that Miranda would buy into it. "The mission is too important to let personal feelings interfere", remember?

Is it too much to expect to let Miranda have at least a *rational* moral reason to recommend destroying the base? The way it's done it pure knee-jerk sentimentality, and whatever you think about such things in general, that is *not* Miranda.

in my opinion, yes. I think it's much more likely that any human--no matter how "pragmatic", "reasonable", "committed to the mission"--who had just seen their ship's crew parboiled (and in some cases actually boiled) may not reccomend "lets keep the base...better yet, let's give it to TiM who keeps funding horrible experiments". Yes, even Miranda.

And it's not like they just walked into the base, saved their crew and are planting the bomb. At that point, Miranda has either led a Fire Team or used all her energy to hold up a biotic sphere (in failure), and shot at god knows how many collectors, husks, harbinger mutts and Scions. How can you expect anyone to think "rationally" at that point? What that commando team had done was unprecedented.

Dr. Doctor wrote...

The issue of the betrayal line is that no context is given to who or what is being betrayed. If it was say "It seems like it would be a betrayal of what Cerberus stands for" or something along those lines would work better that what is there now. As it stands the line really lacks the impact that Bioware might have been trying to achieve.

I take more issue with that than Miranda not suggesting to keep the base.

Modifié par CuseGirl, 24 novembre 2011 - 07:52 .

[CuseGirl]

JosephDucreux wrote...

I for one found Miranda's character progression rushed. They should've taken more time to add in, say, a couple more dialogs before she warms up. That way, it would feel more natural and would eliminate the somewhat unnecessary argument that Miranda goes schizo on the Normandy.

Cover female character, where everyone knows a sex scene comes near the end, so short writing to get to the point. And you get alot about Miranda early on without having to go to her: earliest scene with TiM, the scenes with Wilson, the 2nd Cerberus base (when u first speak to TiM), the shuttle ride, her first scene with Jack....

[wright1978]

I don't particularly mind the betrayal line. I might have preferred it if she said it was too dangerous to keep instead. I've always found her to have a conservative streak to her which I can construe to be behind her willingness to see the base destroyed after seeing the horrors within.

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...
I've always found her to have a conservative streak to her which I can construe to be behind her willingness to see the base destroyed after seeing the horrors within.

I totally don't see that. You don't push the limit with research like she did in Lazarus and likely quite a few other projects with that sort of mindset. She values an intact family because she didn't have one, that's about the extent of it. This becomes obvious if you compare her with Ashley, who's the conservative on the team with her "family, duty, honor" mindset tinged with a little religion (note that I like Ashley, no slight intended - it's just not a mindset I prefer).

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I totally don't see that. You don't push the limit with research like she did in Lazarus and likely quite a few other projects with that sort of mindset. She values an intact family because she didn't have one, that's about the extent of it. This becomes obvious if you compare her with Ashley, who's the conservative on the team with her "family, duty, honor" mindset tinged with a little religion (note that I like Ashley, no slight intended - it's just not a mindset I prefer).

I'd argue professionally she's conservative. She suggests continuing building the team over attacking the base early. She suggests keeping Grunt on ice and Legion deactivated. On a personal level she's less conservative apart from the family thing i agree. I can see her viewing the base an uncontrollable risk where as Lazarus was a risk that she was able to maintain complete control over.

Edit: actually not sure conservative is the right word on second thought, professionally cautious with a need to control situations is better.
.

Modifié par wright1978, 24 novembre 2011 - 09:32 .

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...
Edit: actually not sure conservative is the right word on second thought, professionally cautious with a need to control situations is better.

Ahhh....that makes more sense and yes, she is that. She's a planner and dislikes out-of-control situations. Hmm.....well, I can see her recommending to destroy the base because it's too much of a risk.....but then, it must be weighed against the Reaper threat, so I'd expect her to be at least doubtful about it. And unfortunately, that's not what she says. 

Edit:
Just thinking what a contrast that trait is to TIM's recklessness. What could Cerberus have been with Miranda in charge.... always pushing the envelope in science and technology, but no atrocities and better safety measures. Such a waste.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 novembre 2011 - 11:22 .

[Ticktank]

Does Yvonne Strahovski interact with her fans online (Twitter, Facebook etc)? Has anyone asked her if she's doing VA work in ME3? Or does that fall under the NDA?

If yes, the logical follow-up question would be "How much work?"...

Just thinking at the top of my head,

All the best, Miranda fans.

[alxboss78]

@ Ticktank Yes, Yvonne has Twitter, and i have asked her through that, but no reply. I'm pretty sure though that it falls under the NDA. An interviewer once asked her about it and she said that she couldn't alk about it yet...

[wright1978]

I find it really odd some of the actors seem to be allowed to talk about it but not Yvonne.

[CrutchCricket]

Since we're coming back to the Collector Base yet again, I thought I'd reiterate my position on it, just so we have the full complement and don't need to go back pages for it:
The Collector Base (and by extension the Collectors "race" itself) is built for the sole purpose of constructing Reapers. As such the base has no significant technology to exploit other than that which is used to create the Reapers. Thus using "anything from the base" means using tech to construct Reapers, which IS a betrayal (of humanity if we must be specific). While learning more about Reaper creation might be beneficial, further study is only possible through actual experimentation (i.e. melting people into Reaper goo). The undesirability of this is compounded by TIM himself who has shown plenty of reasons to be distrusted (I will agree here that this should've been made more explicit).
Miranda has ample reason to believe this even if it may not be true thus the line is not necessarily out of character.

[flemm]

wright1978 wrote...

I find it really odd some of the actors seem to be allowed to talk about it but not Yvonne.

A bit, yeah, but it could just be that she has been asked not to say anything until she's back in the studio, at which point Bioware will be able to make a little news item out of it.

[enayasoul]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Since we're coming back to the Collector Base yet again, I thought I'd reiterate my position on it, just so we have the full complement and don't need to go back pages for it:
The Collector Base (and by extension the Collectors "race" itself) is built for the sole purpose of constructing Reapers. As such the base has no significant technology to exploit other than that which is used to create the Reapers. Thus using "anything from the base" means using tech to construct Reapers, which IS a betrayal (of humanity if we must be specific). While learning more about Reaper creation might be beneficial, further study is only possible through actual experimentation (i.e. melting people into Reaper goo). The undesirability of this is compounded by TIM himself who has shown plenty of reasons to be distrusted (I will agree here that this should've been made more explicit).
Miranda has ample reason to believe this even if it may not be true thus the line is not necessarily out of character.

I couldn't have said it any better myself.  I bolded the above for emphasis.  Miranda is cautious...  I think she cares more about humanity than maybe TIM.  They both have different mindsets.

My own personal reason, I don't trust who the base is given too, TIM.  It may have some emotional reaction to why I will always destroy the base.  I don't like how TIM responds when I chose to keep it, just one time to see his reaction.  He'd betray anyone with that smirk.  

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
The Collector Base (and by extension the Collectors "race" itself) is built for the sole purpose of constructing Reapers. As such the base has no significant technology to exploit other than that which is used to create the Reapers.

You do not know that. OK I'll correct myself: this is almost certainly not true (see last paragraph). But let's suppose it is true: so is there any better place to find out things like the makeup of a Reaper, including things like structural weaknesses etc...? To use an analogy, is there anywhere better to find out about cars than in a car factory?

Thus using "anything from the base" means using tech to construct Reapers, which IS a betrayal (of humanity if we must be specific).

That does not follow. To use the car factory analogy again: Even if everything there is, in the end, put to the purpose of building cars, many of the tools you'll find there are of a more general use. You can use a hammer to bash a human's skull in, and you can use it for something more beneficial. What you're saying would be true only if every single facility and tool on the base would run on pasted humans.

While learning more about Reaper creation might be beneficial, further study is only possible through actual experimentation (i.e. melting people into Reaper goo).

That does not follow. You can analyze something to a certain extent without actually using its primary function. I'm sure you can think of a few examples using the car factory analogy. And....well...how does that Reaper factory produce energy? Is it by any means we know? What materials do they use? How do their life-support systems work - after all, the Collectors had to live somewhere. Does the base have any more weapons? These oculi - how do they work? Perhaps they could prove useful. There are a hundred thousand questions you can answer without starting up the main engine, so to speak.

Really, all this should be obvious. *shakes head*

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 novembre 2011 - 03:15 .

[jtav]

A teaser, if I may:

The facility was almost familiar. The same clinically white walls, the same logo on every available surface. Cerberus had always kept prisoners: test subjects, traitorous agents, high-value interrogation targets. Miranda had handled more of those interrogations that she cared to remember. No, this particular collection of holding cells was no different from any other. But she had never been accompanied by Kai Leng, either.

His eyes were obscured behind the goggles he wore, and his arms and legs were covered in cybernetics that twisted around him like vines. He could, of course, have gone for less obvious enhancements that would have allowed him to blend in with the normal population, but that would spoiled his intimidating air. Miranda wasn't intimidated, at least not by the cybernetics. It was Lazarus tech that had enabled Leng to walk again after David Anderson had shot him at point-blank range. So now, the Illusive Man's assassin of choice was even better at killing things.

"We found the source of the Ares leak.”

“Did you now?” Miranda said with forced lightness. The Ares cell had been responsible for designing and updating the mental imprint routine used to transform an ordinary soldier into what the Illusive Man called Centurions—the squad leaders that implemented his high level directives. She’d successfully hacked Cerberus databases and directed Matt to its location. Cerberus doubtless had backups, but it would be weeks before they could create more soldiers. Another of the small yet crucial victories Miranda flattered herself that she was responsible for.

"That's actually why I called you here,” Leng said as they left the elevator. "The traitor is a former member of Lazarus cell. Kelly Chambers. Apparently, she took some files with her when she left the organization. Nothing she was supposed to have, so we’re thinking some as yet unknown accomplice passed them to her. Maybe a boyfriend or girlfriend. Our surveillance recorded her meeting with Commander Shepard several days ago." His lips curled into a tight smile. "Your ex looked quite friendly with her.”

"Trying to make me jealous? Then stop confusing targets and romances. I assure you, Commander Shepard never would have given us the base without my assistance. Chambers is more than welcome to him." Miranda laced her voice with cold contempt, with just the slightest hint of jealousy. Convincing the rest of Cerberus that resuming her relationship with Matt had been nothing more than a honey trap was a delicate balance. She couldn't be entirely indifferent—her professional pride would demand some jealousy when he inevitably moved on, but she couldn't afford to protest too much either. "Though I doubt Chambers is your mole. Entirely too sweet and innocent. She was recruited to give Cerberus a positive face for Shepard, not for her spy skills."

"That's what I said at first. But Shepard hit Ares just days after the meeting. The boss thinks it's an 'intriguing coincidence.' I think she's a filthy traitor who got all starstruck when Shepard saved her from the Collectors. Left as soon as he turned himself in.”

“And you want me to track her down and get the name of her accomplice?”

Leng stopped and gestured toward a darkened cell. “Oh, no. We’ve already got her. But the boss does want you to get the name from her.” He pressed a button, and the cell door opened. “Consider it payback for neglecting you all these months. I know how much you despise traitors to the cause." He pressed a button, and the cell door opened.

[Ieldra]

*shudder*
Quite the setup, jtav. Hopefully Miranda will find a way out of that.

[flemm]

The "betrayal" portion of the CB dialog is not a problem: it's easy to imagine the technology in the base being used by Cerberus in such a way that it would constitute a betrayal of humanity and Miranda's own ideals. On this point, it's worth noting that when some of us looked at the leaked info about what Cerberus appears to be doing in ME3, the term "betrayal" was often used spontaneously to describe TIM's behavior.

The issue with the line is that it is extremely vague and appears to be, when taken at face value, a blanket statement that amounts to saying nothing of value could ever be extracted from the base under any circumstances.

In context, though, I've never seen that as a huge issue because the lines also make it clear that Miranda has either (1) discussed the issue with TIM previously or (2) simply figured out in advance that TIM would likely try to use the base, and what he would likely use it for. She's also talking directly to TIM when she says the lines.

So, I think it's always been possible to fill in the missing phrase: "Using anything from this base **in the way you intend to use it** feels like a betrayal."

It's a problem of phrasing, really. Could it/should it have been phrased differenly? Probably, but people don't always phrase things in the most precise manner possible. It's a big decision for Miranda, and she's making it on incomplete information. What it comes down to is, she simply doesn't trust TIM to handle it, which is a big shift for her, and partially an emotional one.

Modifié par flemm, 24 novembre 2011 - 03:34 .

[Skullheart]

I like that jtav. Keep up the good work, I really wanna know if Miranda will find a way.
Is she still the Cerberus second-in-command in this fic? Just to know...

btw, someone create a twitter for Ori... it doesn't have any tweet since june 6, but I leave the link here in case someone didn'tknow it (like me).

http://twitter.com/#!/Oriana_Lawson

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
The issue with the line is that it is extremely vague and appears to be, when taken at face value, a blanket statement that amounts to saying nothing of value could ever be extracted from the base under any circumstances.

Actually, in the context of what Paragon Shepard says earlier, that is exactly what it *does* say with little space for interpretation. We've talked about that until you started twisting words beyond recognition to keep your point valid. I

[enayasoul]

flemm wrote...

The "betrayal" portion of the CB dialog is not a problem: it's easy to imagine the technology in the base being used by Cerberus in such a way that it would constitute a betrayal of humanity and Miranda's own ideals. On this point, it's worth noting that when some of us looked at the leaked info about what Cerberus appears to be doing in ME3, the term "betrayal" was often used spontaneously to describe TIM's behavior.

The issue with the line is that it is extremely vague and appears to be, when taken at face value, a blanket statement that amounts to saying nothing of value could ever be extracted from the base under any circumstances.

In context, though, I've never seen that as a huge issue because the lines also make it clear that Miranda has either (1) discussed the issue with TIM previously or (2) simply figured out in advance that TIM would likely try to use the base, and what he would likely use it for. She's also talking directly to TIM when she says the lines.

So, I think it's always been possible to fill in the missing phrase: "Using anything from this base **in the way you intend to use it** feels like a betrayal."

It's a problem of phrasing, really. Could it/should it have been phrased differenly? Probably, but people don't always phrase things in the most precise manner possible. It's a big decision for Miranda, and she's making it on incomplete information. What it comes down to is, she simply doesn't trust TIM to handle it, which is a big shift for her, and partially an emotional one.

I can get behind this... what flemm said.  

[CrutchCricket]

Well I was just restating it as I said for the purpose of representing all viewpoints (or at least more than before) and I didn't really feel like getting back into it. But if you insist...

Ieldra2 wrote...
You do not know that. OK I'll correct myself: this is almost certainly not true (see last paragraph). But let's suppose it is true: so is there any better place to find out things like the makeup of a Reaper, including things like structural weaknesses etc...? To use an analogy, is there anywhere better to find out about cars than in a car factory?

If you bring back the car analogy I will bring back the toaster analogy. A toaster is made for the sole purpose of making toast. You're not going to load it with a quantum entaglement device, AM/FM bands and power steering. It makes toast. Want to know how toast is made? Study a toaster. Want anything else? Go study something else.
Oh and seeing as how there's no intact reaper what can we study  the makeup or structural weaknesses from? The larva corpse? Unlikely to be useful as that is not its final form (going with the theory that the larva was going to be the core of a traditional scuttlefish Reaper shell) Oh and remember how easily Sovereign went down once its shields were disrupted (relatively speaking, there were still dozens if not hundreds of ships wailing at it)? What about that final shot from the Normandy? I don't think Joker had any specific intel on where its weakpoint was. Obviously Sovereing was stunned after the Saren-husk thing died so it won't be as easy in ME3. But the point still is that once its mass effect fields, shields and weapons are disabled Reapers aren't that impressive physically. I appreciate that's like saying Iron Man is a b!tch if you take away his flight, repulsors and suit but the point is I don't think the alloy of a Reaper is the most impressive part. And again seeing as there was no intact Reaper, there's no way to study its shields.

That does not follow. To use the car factory analogy again: Even if everything there is, in the end, put to the purpose of building cars, many of the tools you'll find there are of a more general use. You can use a hammer to bash a human's skull in, and you can use it for something more beneficial. What you're saying would be true only if every single facility and tool on the base would run on pasted humans.

Yes but you know where else you can find a hammer? Any department store, hardware store and most residences and businesses. So you've just been through hell capturing a Toyota assembly plant and some of your team may have died. Are you now going to oogle their hammers because they're slightly shinier than yours? We've discussed this before, any tech non-Reaper building related has already been studied to some extent or another. Its presence there is irrelevant.

That does not follow. You can analyze something to a certain extent without actually using its primary function. I'm sure you can think of a few examples using the car factory analogy. And....well...how does that Reaper factory produce energy? Is it by any means we know? What materials do they use? How do their life-support systems work - after all, the Collectors had to live somewhere. Does the base have any more weapons? These oculi - how do they work? Perhaps they could prove useful. There are a hundred thousand questions you can answer without starting up the main engine, so to speak.

Reaper factory was made by Reapers as was pretty much every tech we have to a secondary or tertiary extent. If Reapers power everything with Mass Effect cores why would the Collector base be any different? Bigger, more powerful maybe. But we've already studied that to some extent on the derelict Reaper. We've discussed life-support, there is no evidence of anything advanced in that department (and even less reason to suspect there might be since Collectors have so much "replaced by tech" and theirs isn't a life of comfort or luxury). Occuli are armored combat drones with mini particle beams. I'm not seeing the mystery here.

Really, all this should be obvious. *shakes head*

I agree:P

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 24 novembre 2011 - 04:05 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Actually, in the context of what Paragon Shepard says earlier, that is exactly what it *does* say with little space for interpretation. We've talked about that until you started twisting words beyond recognition to keep your point valid.

No words are being twisted in the interpretation I provide above. A plausible inference is being made according to the context in which the exchange occurs, that is all.

It's plausible that the idea of using the base **in the way TIM intends to use it** is implicit in Miranda's statement because:

1) She is talking to TIM.
2) She has either discussed the issue with him previously, or simply foreseen the eventuality that TIM would want to keep the base.
3) TIM is the only one who will plausibly be able to use the base if it is not destroyed.

By contrast, there's really no strong reason to interpret her statement as applying to any and all imaginable situations in which the base might be studied, since those situations are imaginary and not in any danger of happening when the dialog occurs.

What Shepard says doesn't strike me as especially relevant, since Miranda has misgivings about Cerberus keeping the base either way. Main difference is that, if you keep the base, TIM never treats Miranda as expendable, and so she doesn't resign (at least not right away).

Modifié par flemm, 24 novembre 2011 - 04:18 .