82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Skullheart]

Uses for the CB:
- Processing humans to build a reaper.
- To create more collectors (is a cloning facility).

Building a reaper could be a betrayal to mankind, but the cloning data could help to create shock troops.

The bad thing is....spoilers* Cerberus use captured civilians to create their shock troopers. They use reaper augmentation to make them efficient and indoctrination to keep them loyal, just like what the reapers did to the protheans.*end of spoiler.

[CrutchCricket]

Skullheart wrote...

Uses for the CB:
- Processing humans to build a reaper.
- To create more collectors (is a cloning facility).

Proof for bolded part? And if you say the leak, that doesn't count since that data wasn't available during the course of ME2 and the SM in particular.

[Skullheart]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

Uses for the CB:
- Processing humans to build a reaper.
- To create more collectors (is a cloning facility).

Proof for bolded part? And if you say the leak, that doesn't count since that data wasn't available during the course of ME2 and the SM in particular.

We know that the collector clone themselfs. The most logical location to do that is their "homeworld", in this case the Base (I doubt that they do that in the vessel).

[CrutchCricket]

Skullheart wrote...
We know that the collector clone themselfs. The most logical location to do that is their "homeworld", in this case the Base (I doubt that they do that in the vessel).

Hmm. Good point actually. Although a case can still be made that much of the usefulness of that would be destroyed anyway. Even if you keep the base the radiation pulse would likely destroy any stored Collector DNA as well as the Collectors themselves. Then again the machinery itself would remain intact...

Still, we already have cloning (Miranda's proof of that). Are the Collectors more advanced clones than she is? And we already have cybernetics as well as evidenced by Shepard.

OK there is plausibility here. But you could still wiggle either way. And ultimately providing wiggle room is all my argument is meant to do.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 24 novembre 2011 - 04:37 .

[Skullheart]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Hmm. Good point actually. Although a case can still be made that much of the usefulness of that would be destroyed anyway. Even if you keep the base the radiation pulse would likely destroy any stored Collector DNA as well as the Collectors themselves. Then again the machinery itself would remain intact...

We recovered a collector DNA sample in the collector vessel.

Still, we already have cloning (Miranda's proof of that). Are the Collectors more advanced clones than she is? And we already have cybernetics as well as evidenced by Shepard.

Miranda was a baby when her father made her. With the collector technology we can create full grown shock trooper. We don'tneed to raise them.

But, the Collector Base is more a treath than a resource. We don't need to create a reaper. It will end indoctrinating the investigation team and using them to finish the collector job.

If we use the base as cloning facility there no guarantee that those clones wouldn't turn against us when the reapers arrive. (Harbinger arrives and says "execute order 66").

I totally understand Miranda saying that is a betrayal using anything from there. She believes in her own idea of Cerberus (advance and preservation of mankind), but during the mission with Shepard she discovers that the Cerberus that she believes and the real Cerberus isn't the same.

Modifié par Skullheart, 24 novembre 2011 - 05:03 .

[CrutchCricket]

Skullheart wrote...
Miranda was a baby when her father made her. With the collector technology we can create full grown shock trooper. We don'tneed to raise them.

But, the Collector Base is more a treath than a resource. We don't need to create a reaper. It will end indoctrinating the investigation team and using them to finish the collector job.

If we use the base as cloning facility there no guarantee that those clones wouldn0t turn against us when the reapers arrive. (Harbinger arrives and says "execute order 6").

I totally understand Miranda saying that is a betrayal using anything from there. She believes in her own idea of Cerberus (advance and preservation of mankinf), but during the mission with Shepard she discovers that the Cerberus that she believes and the real Cerberus isn't the same.

Hmm. All true. Except I forgot about Okeer. He was growing adult krogan as was Saren before him and Okeer had Collector help.

I would also add that the idea of cloning Collectors probably never occured to her. After all we can talk about all the tiny little tech details in the base till we're blue in the face but after the hell she went through to get to that point I think Miranda can be forgiven for not thinking of everything). And if did, given her own troubles with the concept (she hasn't yet come to terms with her origins like we all want her to) it wouldn't be a terrible stretch for her to oppose that.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 24 novembre 2011 - 05:06 .

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
And again seeing as there was no intact Reaper, there's no way to study its shields.

One word: blueprints, or whatever the Reapers use instead of them. This is a Reaper factory after all.

Yes but you know where else you can find a hammer? Any department store, hardware store and most residences and businesses.

I'll concede the argument after you point me to a Reaper department store so I can study their equivalent of hammers. Ah yes.....perhaps a workshop will do just as well. You know....like the Collector base.

Reaper factory was made by Reapers as was pretty much every tech we have to a secondary or tertiary extent. If Reapers power everything with Mass Effect cores why would the Collector base be any different? Bigger, more powerful maybe. But we've already studied that to some extent on the derelict Reaper. We've discussed life-support, there is no evidence of anything advanced in that department (and even less reason to suspect there might be since Collectors have so much "replaced by tech" and theirs isn't a life of comfort or luxury). Occuli are armored combat drones with mini particle beams. I'm not seeing the mystery here.

Assumptions, assumptions. You don't want to *seriously* argue that you wouldn't even want to look if there is something useful? On a spurious argument that "Reapers don't have anything impressive", against which Sovereign is a primary example. We killed it after we brought down its shields by using a whole fleet so there wasn't anything impressive in it? What kind of logic is that. Did you perhaps forget that Sovereign cut starships in half with no more effort than raising a finger? If anything, I'd expect quite a bit more impressive stuff in there. The Reapers didn't repeat the cycle for tens of millions of years by being not impressive.

Edit:
And btw, we studied nothing on the derelict Reaper. There was no time. Shepard even alludes to it: "I hate to lose this thing. We need everything we can get against the Reapers" (phrasing might be a little different, quoting from memory).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 novembre 2011 - 06:07 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
One word: blueprints, or whatever the Reapers use instead of them. This is a Reaper factory after all.

What you said is true. The Collector Base has value beyond the construction of Reapers. Even the technologies that have kept the Collector going for millennia could be used for medicinal purposes.
However, there's no reason to believe that we will find any sort of "blueprints" in the CB. The Collectors themselves have no true intelligence and it's obvious that the Reapers don't need blueprints.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 novembre 2011 - 06:08 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
It's plausible that the idea of using the base **in the way TIM intends to use it** is implicit in Miranda's statement because:

1) She is talking to TIM.
2) She has either discussed the issue with him previously, or simply foreseen the eventuality that TIM would want to keep the base.
3) TIM is the only one who will plausibly be able to use the base if it is not destroyed.

You're still ignoring that her statement says that you couldn't even take something away from the base and use it elsewhere without it being a betrayal. I maintain that you're trying to twist meanings to make something fit that doesn't fit.

By contrast, there's really no strong reason to interpret her statement as applying to any and all imaginable situations in which the base might be studied, since those situations are imaginary and not in any danger of happening when the dialog occurs.

Untrue. In fact, studying the base, or taking stuff away with you for study, is exactly what you'd expect to happen at this point from a strategic point of view. It is a very real possibility. I'm sorry but the same "context" you're so fond of invoking says that her statement *is* a blanket statement. If it wasn't obvious before, the "anything" makes that very plain.

What Shepard says doesn't strike me as especially relevant, since Miranda has misgivings about Cerberus keeping the base either way. Main difference is that, if you keep the base, TIM never treats Miranda as expendable, and so she doesn't resign (at least not right away).

In other words: what she says doesn't mean what she says, and what Shepard says is not relevant. You're starting to sound the like the turian councillor.

@MisterJB:
That's an assumption with absolutely no evidence. Easy to solve: look. In essence, that what I say should be done at the minimum, and that's what Miranda would recommend: look. When the Collectors are gone, you can destroy the thing at your leisure. The whole situation is an artificial dilemma anyway.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 novembre 2011 - 06:18 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
You're still ignoring that her statement says that you couldn't even take something away from the base and use it elsewhere without it being a betrayal.

[...]

Untrue. In fact, studying the base, or taking stuff away with you for study, is exactly what you'd expect to happen at this point from a strategic point of view. It is a very real possibility. I'm sorry but the same "context" you're so fond of invoking says that her statement *is* a blanket statement. The "anything" makes that very plain.

The key point is that the only person who is plausibly going to be able to use the base, if it is not destroyed, is TIM. So, Miranda's statement should be interpreted in light of that.

The way you prefer to interpret "anything" actually tends to ignore that fact. For example, you like to imagine a situation where the base is carefully studied using all necessary precautions, including rotating scientists in and out to avoid indoctrination, etc.

Problem: none of that is plausibly going to happen if you hand the base over to TIM. And that's who Miranda is talking to when she makes the statement. And it seems to be a fragment of an ongoing conversation on the subject.

In other words: what she says doesn't mean what she says, and what Shepard says is not relevant.

What Shepard says does not determine the meaning of what Miranda says. This should really be a non-controversial statement.

As to what Miranda says, it's open to interpretation. Your insistence that it can mean one thing and one thing only has more to do with your personal feelings about what Miranda *should have said* than it does about what she actually says, imo.

Modifié par flemm, 24 novembre 2011 - 06:33 .

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
One word: blueprints, or whatever the Reapers use instead of them.

Direct neural implants, probably through a mix of indoctrination and the tech inside the Collectors? I think I joked about this the last time we discussed this but there really isn't a "Building Reapers: For Dummies".

I'll concede the argument after you point me to a Reaper department store so I can study their equivalent of hammers. Ah yes.....perhaps a workshop will do just as well. You know....like the Collector base.

Introducing the mass effect field, good for what ails you, available at your local Space Hardware and Space Rona. But wait, there's more! Order online now and we'll throw in a free shipment of eezo! Even the Shadow Broker can't match these prices!

Assumptions, assumptions. You don't want to *seriously* argue that you wouldn't even want to look if there is something useful? On a spurious argument that "Reapers don't have anything impressive", against which Sovereign is a primary example. We killed it after we brought down its shields by using a whole fleet so there wasn't anything impressive in it? What kind of logic is that. Did you perhaps forget that Sovereign cut starships in half with no more effort than raising a finger? If anything, I'd expect quite a bit more impressive stuff in there. The Reapers didn't repeat the cycle for tens of millions of years by being not impressive.

The Reapers repeated the cycle by essentially leaving the galactic equivalent of the Trojan Horse lying around and then coming in in the middle of the night and butt****ing the galactic leadership before anyone knew what hit them. Seriously they stacked the deck so much in their favor, previous civilizations might as well have fought them with cheese. Of course they are formidable in their own right and a serious galactic extinction threat. But let's not kid ourselves, they're not made of unobtanium and adamantium. Which if you look at my point carefully I was talking about physical characteristics not overall accomplishments, in direct reply to your search for a weakpoint.

And I do apologize for the assumptions I was under the impression they were all we had. I didn't play the bonus "Collector Base Tour" DLC... oh and I assume you don't mean to refute me on the derelict Reaper by refering to just the mission Shepard had on it are you? Because you know the whole science team that was there before and we eventually lost contact with? Yeah I doubt they were sending back PacMan scores.

MisterJB: The "technology that kept the Collectors going" is most likely cloning and cybernetics. We have that as shown by Miranda, Shepard and Okeer. Also Saren.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra: The evidence comes from Mordin's in depth study of the Collectors and what we already knew regarding the effects of Indocrination on a sentient being's mind. The Collectors have been dehumanized to the point where they no longer need to eat. It's a much bigger assumption to believe that they would be left with enough intelligence to build a Reaper without another one guiding them through the entire process.

[Ieldra]

So what you're doing, CrutchCricket, is basically reinterpreting the complete Reaper technology as "not very impressive", against the in-game evidence of Sovereign (ultra-strong shields, cuts ships in half with a finger, unmatched maneuverability (Virmire)), against indoctrination which nobody has managed yet to decipher, against the technology that makes Husks and suchlike, against pretty much everything we know about them that indicates they are beyond Citadel Civilization in technology. Seeing that which is impressive, you nonetheless assume the big rest we're not seeing is not. And all that just so you can say that Miranda is right to dismiss the base without taking possible knowledge gained into account?

You know, I think we should stop this debate now. I think you're pulling my tail.

@MisterJB:
Well yes, we know that someone guides them. But only after we've made the decision. At the time, whatever guides them, whether it be a plan, an AI, an organic mind or something else, must be assumed to be present at the base. Which we can study.

[MisterJB]

No, we mustn't. The Collectors and Reapers are sufficiently alien that Harbinger could have been anyone or anything. That we will be able to study it and thus, study how a Reaper is made if we kill all the Collectors is an assumption.

The rest of the base we can study. Wheter we should is debatable.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 novembre 2011 - 07:42 .

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

So what you're doing, CrutchCricket, is basically reinterpreting the complete Reaper technology as "not very impressive", against the in-game evidence of Sovereign (ultra-strong shields, cuts ships in half with a finger, unmatched maneuverability (Virmire)), against indoctrination which nobody has managed yet to decipher, against the technology that makes Husks and suchlike, against pretty much everything we know about them that indicates they are beyond Citadel Civilization in technology. Seeing that which is impressive, you nonetheless assume the big rest we're not seeing is not. And all that just so you can say that Miranda is right to dismiss the base without taking possible knowledge gained into account?

You know, I think we should stop this debate now. I think you're pulling my tail.

You know what? I absolutely agree that we should stop this debate. But I am rather hesitant to simply leave one of my points so badly mangled you'd think I put it through a meat grinder. I'm not even sure how to go about correcting this and I don't have the energy for my usual rhetoric. So all I can do is point:

Which if you look at my point carefully I was talking about physical characteristics not overall accomplishments, in direct reply to your search for a weakpoint.

But the point still is that once its mass effect fields, shields and weapons are disabled Reapers aren't that impressive physically. I appreciate that's like saying Iron Man is a b!tch if you take away his flight, repulsors and suit but the point is I don't think the alloy of a Reaper is the most impressive part. And again seeing as there was no intact Reaper, there's no way to study its shields.

I'm not saying anything about what Miranda is right or wrong to do. You're the one that insists this one line, this one word is the root of all that is evil and wrong in the world (exaggeration) and I and several others on here are trying to show you that it's not necessarily so. You want to continue hating that line and stick to your version, that's fine. I have a line I hate as well and if we were talking about that I might very well be just as adamant. But we can agree to disagree. I didn't even want to get into this again. I just wanted everyone (you included) to acknowledge that different viewpoints (and arguments for them) exist.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 24 novembre 2011 - 08:03 .

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
No, we mustn't. The Collectors and Reapers are sufficiently alien that Harbinger could have been anyone or anything. That we will be able to study it and thus, study how a Reaper is made if we kill all the Collectors is an assumption.

Actually, yes, that *is* the first hypothesis we must make. For that would appear logical unless we get evidence that they do things differently. They could, of course, but nobody would assume that by default. First you'd think "It must be here somewhere", and then you look, don't find anything, and conclude they do things differently or you don't know what to look for. You just don't hypothesize "They do things differently" and conclude you don't need to look. That's just stupid.

Unless, of course, you do not *want* to look. Or you do not want there to be anything useful. With a passion...

[enayasoul]

I agree we all have different viewpoints on this. Iedra2, you never take Miranda to the final boss nor hear her line so does it really matter at this point? I get you want keep the base for your own vision of this unknown technology the reapers might have for you. Shepard's not going to see any of this as far as I know. TIM will use it for his own ideals and apparently has in the comic?... he may very well end up betraying you and humanity with joining the Reapers. We all have *our* own ideals about it. I just don't like the fact that you Iedra2 keep saying we are wrong to assume this and your right... need to drop it.

[jtav]

Story posted if anyone wants to read.

Miranda knew being a mole within Cerberus would be difficult, but there are some sacrifices you're never prepared to make.

[Ieldra]

@CrutchCricket:
Oh yes, we should agree to disagree here. BTW, to deny that different viewpoints exist would be stupid since they obviously do, or we wouldn't have this discussion. But I don't have to point that out myself if I don't agree with them, do I?

As for your argument, I understand what you mean. I just don't understand how to come to that opinion. If I had an inactive Reaper with destroyed shields and weapons in front of me, I'd still want to finecomb everything before I sent it into a star. So yeah, we don't have that. But if I had something before me that could as well be a non-organic component of a future Reaper, I'd want to analyze the hell out of it. Especially in a situation where this thing might become part of an enemy. To say "we don't need to look" - or even worse "It's probably nothing we can understand anyway, so why bother" (regarding the "blueprints")...look, I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, but I'm sorry, I don't get that mindset. Totally not.

And we need a picture.

[Ieldra]

enayasoul wrote...
I agree we all have different viewpoints on this. Iedra2, you never take Miranda to the final boss nor hear her line so does it really matter at this point?

Unfortunately, it does matter until ME3 is out. For the reason I've been so adamant about this is that I fear that it indicates Miranda will become a totally different person in ME3, full of sentimentality and with her operative's competence and pragmatism totally lost. That's what that line indicates for me. Were it not so, I'd say your and my games have a different Miranda and leave it at that. 

I get you want keep the base for your own vision of this unknown technology the reapers might have for you. Shepard's not going to see any of this as far as I know. TIM will use it for his own ideals and apparently has in the comic?... he may very well end up betraying you and humanity with joining the Reapers.

You know, I understand that people don't trust TIM and that's why they destroy the base. Totally OK with me, I can see where they're coming from even if I don't agree. It's Paragon Shepard*s reason I have an issue with, and I could ignore even that since I don't get that scene if not for the fact that Miranda appears to buy into it.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Story posted if anyone wants to read.

Miranda knew being a mole within Cerberus would be difficult, but there are some sacrifices you're never prepared to make.

Phew. That's an intense scene. I'm trying to imagine how Miranda must feel....

[CrutchCricket]

No you don't have to point them out. But the supporters of those views can and should bring them up again, if only to present anyone new to the issue with a more complete picture of what has been said before. As for the idea itself... I don't know how else to say it but let's try this: there is no technology left in the base that we don't already have and that would not cost us too much to use. And I think "use" is important here, as opposed to "study". Miranda knows what use means when it comes to TIM. We're not talking looking at a diagram of a Reaper for a spot labeled "launch missile here". "Using", TIM-style could very well be a betrayal even if the thing you're using is a toaster:P

Anyway I don't have a picture of my own so I shall comment on yours. I don't believe I've seen this particular shot before. Definitely making it one of my favorites now. I still need to get one of her in the cockpit after they crash on the Collector Base. My memory's a little hazy but I think the specific moment happens right after she says "we knew this was a one way trip". There's a Shepard reply and then Joker points something out and they both look forward and I just love how Miranda looks in that second. It's a terrible description, maybe I'll take that screenshot myself (though I'm nowhere near an SM at the moment).

Oh also a bit of Miranda game breaking- take her to fight the Occulus. After you beat it the second time, Miranda calls you back to the bridge... through the radio. A second later she's right beside Shepard in the cargo hold. Guess that slipped through testing:lol:

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 24 novembre 2011 - 09:03 .

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
And I think "use" is important here, as opposed to "study". Miranda knows what use means when it comes to TIM. We're not talking looking at a diagram of a Reaper for a spot labeled "launch missile here". "Using", TIM-style could very well be a betrayal even if the thing you're using is a toaster:P

Yeah, I've thought about that difference before. It's significant. I didn't mention it because it didn't make a difference if you take the "anything" into account. It really hinges on one word of her line. If she said "Using this base seems like a betrayal", I'd agree with the feeling though I'd still expect her to express regret at not being able to study it.

It doesn't help that I firmly believe the writers intended this exactly as I interpret it - as a blanket condemnation of anything (sic) having to do with the base. It fits with the feel of the Paragon path in this scene. And I think that making Miranda echo Paragon Shepard's feeling was more important to them than staying in character at that point.

Anyway I don't have a picture of my own so I shall comment on yours. I don't believe I've seen this particular shot before. Definitely making it one of my favorites now.

This is from Garrus' recruitment mission. You only get it if Miranda has a specific slot on the squad. Otherwise you get another squadmate in this pose.

I still need to get one of her in the cockpit after they crash on the Collector Base. My memory's a little hazy but I think the specific moment happens right after she says "we knew this was a one way trip". There's a Shepard reply and then Joker points something out and they both look forward and I just love how Miranda looks in that second. It's a terrible description, maybe I'll take that screenshot myself (though I'm nowhere near an SM at the moment).

One of these?


Not quite sure where exactly they are. After the Oculus fights, but I don't recall which one was before and after the crash.

Oh also a bit of Miranda game breaking- take her to fight the Occulus. After you beat it the second time, Miranda calls you back to the bridge... through the radio. A second later she's right beside Shepard in the cargo hold. Guess that slipped through testing

Yeah, noticed that, too. There's one more of these around the two Oculus fights, though I don't recall what it was.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 novembre 2011 - 09:24 .

[wright1978]

While i don't agree completely with Ieldra's take on the scene i can share the worry about the Miranda we will meet in ME3. I worry that if she doesn't get enough content/a big enough role what we'll get is a one size fits all Miranda that focuses on the uncontentious areas of her arc(oriana etc) and doesn't allow for divergence.

[alperez]

Once again the problem with the base is not that its tech or inherently evil, its that the only choice we're given is to hand it over to cerberus, any potential value or info that can be taken or gained from the base has to be offset by the fact that we are not in control of that tech or info.

I'm a soldier, who's done peacekeeping missions, if while doing those missions i come across a weapon that i've never been seen before, i can pick up that weapon and hold onto it so it can be studied and whatever tech advantage it may contain can be utilised.

If however my choice is to hand that weapon to someone else then it creates a completely different dynamic, then i have to weigh up the potential benefit of whatever tech advantage can be gained with the potential danger of handing something dangerous to people i can't control.

While working in certain areas as peacekeepers we sometimes have to work alongside people who previously were warlords or were the ones creating most of the destruction we're there to stop, technically these people are our allies and are on our side at that particular point in time.

Now if i came across a technical advancement that could be used for good or bad depending on who controlled it and handed it over to those very same allies, i'd be drummed out of the military faster than the speed of light, so faced with a choice to hand it over to them or destroy it the only real choice i would have is to destroy it, simply to ensure that i'm not creating a future problem.

This is in essence the choice we're given with the CB, yes the tech could yield anything, the problem is we don't or won't control that tech so we have to trust those who do.

Now in terms of whether or not using anything from something that thus far has been used in an inherently evil way can be considered a betrayal and whether or not the scientific pragmatic Miranda would consider it such, the answer is simple, everyone has a line in the sand, a point where they can no longer ignore something negative because it could yield a potential postive imo.

Sometimes when faced with these type of choice a pragmatic person won't be able to put aside the emotional aspect of themselves and make the pragmatic choice, which is what i believe happens with Miranda and why the line is not imo ooc.

Miranda is for all intents and purposes a genetic creation, seeing the same thing being done on the CB only on a much larger scale would imo push her buttons even more than it would with practically any other person who could be there, so her emotional reaction to this would be much different than Mordins (who is also a pragmatic scientist), where one could allow their emotional side to take a back seat imo the other may not.