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[Ieldra]

Here's another thing I'd like to discuss:

From certain lines in the leaked material, it appears likely the writers won't let Miranda's infertility be removed or circumvented. Should that happen, I would find that lame. Given the description in LotSB, it should be child's play for the existing technology to do something about it. For me, it would feel like Bioware would compromise their world-building, introducing dramatic inconsistencies in technology, for a dramatic effect affecting one character, and one most fans don't even want.

I've always found that little addition in LotSB insulting and would like to express my preference for an option to influence what happens to Miranda in that regard.

And while I'm at it, this bears repeating:

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler location follows* The Illusive Man's base. Details see here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 novembre 2011 - 08:44 .

[jtav]

Meanwhile, I'm thrilled about it. I am sick of characters being given medical problems so that they can be removed. I'm over the moon that Miranda is going to have to adapt. I would find a cure as insulting as you find the lack of one. Because a cure reinforces the message that removing the problem is the only way to be happy. And that is a message I am heartily sick of seeing.

[Ieldra]

I find it insulting to add it in this heavy-handed, implausible way in the first place, as if we who play (and live, it sometimes appear) in that universe were morons not to see how easy it should be removed. I'd find an option with a hint that it can be removed as correcting a mistake in world-building, among other things.

I'd be fine with an ending where Miranda says "Yeah, I could remove it, but I'm not the type for a family. That ship has sailed a long time ago".

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 novembre 2011 - 08:47 .

[flemm]

Tbh, the vibe I'm getting from the script is that they are just going to avoid the issue, leaving the player to decide whether the SB info was accurate or not. Which I don't like. It was a stupid thing to bring into the game, but since that happened, it should be addressed one way or another.

But overall, that's the vibe I'm getting from the script where Miranda is concerned: basically, avoid the controversial, interesting stuff, and focus on her family affairs basically to the exclusion of all else.

Really, the Cerberus connection is the biggest offender here. From the script, there's really nothing to even indicate that Miranda worked for the organisation in the past, except a throwaway line or two, let alone being devoted to what she perceived to be its goals and ideals.

Modifié par flemm, 26 novembre 2011 - 08:48 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Really, the Cerberus connection is the biggest offender here. From the script, there's really nothing to even indicate that Miranda worked for the organisation in the past, except a throwaway line or two, let alone being devoted to what she perceived to be its goals and ideals.

You know what makes this even more galling? The fact Miranda gets a retroactive promotion to *spoiler follows* Cerberus second-in-command.

[alperez]

At times it seems like certain things were decided by commitee in terms of Miranda's role and past, like someone threw out the idea and if no one objected or said whoa thats controversial we had better not go there it made it in but if they did they just avoided it altogether.

Its almost a reverse of the treatment of the VS, where they basically throw in the most controversial parts of their character arcs almost as if they're putting 2 fingers up to the fans of that character.

Modifié par alperez, 26 novembre 2011 - 08:56 .

[flemm]

Difference is that, for Miranda's Cerberus connection be dealt with, she'd have to be around more than the writers apparently want her to be. Not to say she would have to be essential (she wouldn't), but she'd have to show up more often and be involved at other points in the plot than her one mission.

With the VS, the plot-relevance and overall presence are there, though I recognize that many fans are not happy with the portrayal.

Modifié par flemm, 26 novembre 2011 - 08:59 .

[Master Shiori]

alperez wrote...



When you have the turian homeworld practically devasted but Garrus can still join up with Shepard and you have the Geth and Quarians at war but tali can also do the same it brings into focus their reasoning compared to other characters.

Well, Garrus has no special standing among the Turians. His contribution lies entirely in his combat skills and those are of most use on the Normandy as part of Shep's squad. Outside of that he's either a regular C-sec agent or a simple soldier in the turian military.

Tali is an admiral's daughter, a respected member of the Flottila and, possibly, a replacement for her father on the Admiralty Board. Having her become an admiral would, imo, do a lot more to aid in mobilizing the Quarians against the Reapers than having her joyriding across the galaxy with Shepard. 

alperez wrote...


So when you later on meet for example Miranda and she can't or won't join up because she is so badly needed in some other role, yet garrus or Tali feel they are not it presents for me a character conflict that doesn't make sense. We've yet to see the full circumstances surrounding why or how this happens with certain characters, however in the leak it does not come across as anything more than a sidelining of the me2 specific ones in favour of others.

I was under the impression that Miranda still has an important role in ME3, despite not being a full time squadmember? Granted, if I had a choice I'd rather she be present on board the Normandy, but I trust the writers will do her character, story and romance justice either way. 

Miranda, along with Liara, Mordin, Tali and Legion, is one of those characters who can do a lot to aid you even outside Normandy. She has the skills, intelligence and potential to shine outside of Shepard's shadow. 

[jtav]

The problem is that she isn't doing much of anything . Her Cerberus connection has been almost completely dropped, in favor of focusing on Lawson family drama.

[flemm]

Master Shiori wrote...

I was under the impression that Miranda still has an important role in ME3, despite not being a full time squadmember?

That's a stretch, tbh, unless things have changed a lot since the leak. She's never on the squad at any point, and she is only featured in one mission. That mission does have plot-relevance, if Miranda is alive (filled by a Wreav-esque character, if Miranda is dead), or you can skip it entirely, since another mission can apparently fill the same plot function (not in the same way, but it moves the plot forward to the same next step).

Beyond that, she seems to make some contribution to the endgame if she survives, as is the case for the other "might be dead" squad members. That's about it.

Actual screentime would translate to rock-bottom minimum in the leak, especially given that her mission doesn't actually seem to involve her being around for much time at all.

Modifié par flemm, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:08 .

[Master Shiori]

flemm wrote...


That's a stretch, tbh, unless things have changed a lot since the leak. She's never on the squad at any point, and she is only featured in one mission. That mission does have plot-relevance, if Miranda is alive (filled by a Wreav-esque character, if Miranda is dead), or you can skip it entirely, since another mission can apparently fill the same plot function (not in the same way, but it moves the plot forward to the same next step).

Beyond that, she seems to make some contribution to the endgame if she survives, as is the case for the other "might be dead" squad members. That's about it.

Great, so much for my optimism..

Oh well.

Does she at least get a date with Shep like the LI's on the Normandy? Or should I be prepared for a replay of that scene where Shepard stares into a damn photo?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
The problem is that she isn't doing much of anything . Her Cerberus connection has been almost completely dropped, in favor of focusing on Lawson family drama.

Yeah. Mass Effect soap opera.... hmph. I know we said we wanted Miranda to come to terms with her origin, and that would mean confronting her father. I'm still very much ok with that part. But we said that in the expectation that her Cerberus story arc would get some primary screen time anyway. There was no doubt about that, it was about the only thing everyone agreed would be featured in ME3 prominently. That they might drop that is.....incomprehensible. So incomprehensible, in fact, that I have a hard time believing they'll really do it.

@Master Shiori:
We'll get romance content beyond the picture. Not quite sure of the form it will take, but there are romance-y lines in at least two conversations, and there's one scene missing that we think will have more.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:11 .

[MisterJB]

Master Shiori wrote...
Does she at least get a date with Shep like the LI's on the Normandy? Or should I be prepared for a replay of that scene where Shepard stares into a damn photo?

Bring it on, Biowar. I'm ready.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:10 .

[alperez]

Master Shiori wrote...

Well, Garrus has no special standing among the Turians. His contribution lies entirely in his combat skills and those are of most use on the Normandy as part of Shep's squad. Outside of that he's either a regular C-sec agent or a simple soldier in the turian military.

Without going too much into the leaks, Garrus role does kinda change in terms of his importance to his people, But it was actually more his family connections which should give him some pause, his mother and sister were if i remember correctly on Palaven, so he probably has a big reason considering what's happening to be helping his own people imo.

Tali is an admiral's daughter, a respected member of the Flottila and, possibly, a replacement for her father on the Admiralty Board. Having her become an admiral would, imo, do a lot more to aid in mobilizing the Quarians against the Reapers than having her joyriding across the galaxy with Shepard. 

Indeed, yet it seems she wil be joyriding with Shepard either way, which is kinda the point i was making for things to make character sense they need to apply to all characters and not just the ones your trying to sideline.

I was under the impression that Miranda still has an important role in ME3, despite not being a full time squadmember? Granted, if I had a choice I'd rather she be present on board the Normandy, but I trust the writers will do her character, story and romance justice either way. 

Miranda, along with Liara, Mordin, Tali and Legion, is one of those characters who can do a lot to aid you even outside Normandy. She has the skills, intelligence and potential to shine outside of Shepard's shadow.

Again without going too deep into the leaks, the problem is that as it looks at the moment the role is not as important as it should be.

[flemm]

Master Shiori wrote...

Great, so much for my optimism..

Sorry. Don't mean to be the bearer of bad tidings, but that's the reality of what we are seeing here.

Master Shiori wrote...

Does she at least get a date with Shep like the LI's on the Normandy?

No date in the leak. We can't really tell if there is a romance scene. There might be one, though it is hard to tell where/how this would happen, because Miranda is basically never around, except during her one mission, and the ambiance there is not conducive to romance, to say the least. 

There is some romance-specific content, though, and some of it seems to be well-written. It's the most positive thing I can say about the leak.

Modifié par flemm, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:14 .

[MisterJB]

But Miranda's content did give the impression that was unfinished. Her confrontation with her father was not present, neither was her contribution to the final battle, only hints and everything seemed to be written from a playthrough where Shepard destroyed the CB.
Grasping at straws it's the best we can do.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:18 .

[Master Shiori]

MisterJB wrote...

Bring it on, Biowar. I'm ready.

I take it that's a "no"?

Right, consider me officially depressed..

alperez wrote...

Without going too much into the leaks, Garrus role does kinda change in terms of his importance to his people, But it was actually more his family connections which should give him some pause, his mother and sister were if i remember correctly on Palaven, so he probably has a big reason considering what's happening to be helping his own people imo.

With the exception of a few choice ones, I've been trying to avoid spoilers so I'll take your word for it. At least it sounds like some interesting development for Garrus.

[jtav]

Bah. She only belongs to Bioware for the purpose of making money anyway. I'm poaching her back. If they want to ignore all this untapped potential, I'll have to make use of it myself. No less real than their version.

[Ieldra]

Why do I get the impression that with Miranda, they created a character too complex to be put in a game.

Former Cerberus loyalist turned Cerberus renegade, with her own set of Cerberus-compatible ideals intact but no xenophobia, instead with an appreciation for asari culture. Her father is her nemesis, nonetheless she wanted a family at some point but isn't really the type for one. Coldly-pragmatic in business but loyal to those under her command as a good commander should be, and with a fierce love of her sister. Good at spywork, so definitely not socially awkward but inexperienced with and wary of emotional entanglements. And I've not even touched her competence and her genetic enhancements and her problems with it.

How do you write such a character within the constraints of a game's content?

[Ieldra]

Master Shiori wrote...
I take it that's a "no"?

That's not a "no". Read my answer.

[Master Shiori]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
I take it that's a "no"?

That's not a "no". Read my answer.

Just did. Sorry, I missed it the first time.

Guess I'll sit back and hope for the best. 

Modifié par Master Shiori, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:34 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
How do you write such a character within the constraints of a game's content?

Well, you might not be able to adequately cover all those aspects, but that doesn't mean that many of the important ones should be ignored (I think we would agree).

Really, the Cerberus connection being dropped after a throwaway line or two is the unacceptable part. Some of the other things I could imagine not getting to in detail. But Cerberus is all over the place in this game. Problem is Miranda is basically never there, except for one mission involving her family.

Her mission even leads to the crucial scenes involving Cerberus, but there is a plot contrivance to prevent Miranda from being involved with those. So, if she's not involved, it's not because it's too complicated.

Modifié par flemm, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:53 .

[alperez]

Ieldra2 wrote...

How do you write such a character within the constraints of a game's content?

The thing is that her complexity really shouldn't be an issue, again i point you to the VS and how they're written, as much as i'd like to believe that Miranda being a complex character is why they haven't gone in to certain elements i doubt it, they write any character to fit the plot they want to put them in even if that character seems ooc in their actions.

As for how do you write a character like Miranda even with her complexities into the game well almost any single one of her fans and especially those who write fanfics about her can somehow manage it, so surely professional writers can.

Its an interesting discussion though, although given we know some things regarding the plot it may not be one that's best served here and may work better in the group.

[MisterJB]

I like that. Miranda is too much of a character for Mass Effect 3. Clearly, she needs her own game.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:52 .

[jtav]

Permission to speak frankly? I think the complexity was mostly unintentional and caused by bad writing. She was supposed to be a fairly simple Bond girl with the utterly predictable hidden depth of loving her sister. But the riders were never quite on the same page, so you got a lot of subtle variation. And Strahovski is a very good VA who was able to give Maranda a shading and depth she wouldn't have possessed otherwise.

Modifié par jtav, 26 novembre 2011 - 09:55 .