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[flemm]

Well, in that analysis, there's still the Cerberus connection and the genetic engineering to deal with. But it's true that those also may have been unintentionally complex, in the sense that both were supposed to be perceived as bad stuff that Miranda leaves behind, basically, or separates herself from in some way.

In that sense, it would be more that fans don't react to her the way the writers expected, as Ieldra has previously suggested. So, a combination of things.

Regardless, dropping the Cerberus stuff is going to be a huge missed opportunity. Doesn't really matter how you slice it. After all, Miranda opposing Cerberus in ME3 would not be a problem. Problem is more that she doesn't seem to care all that much, period.

Modifié par flemm, 26 novembre 2011 - 10:01 .

[Labrev]

MisterJB wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...
Does she at least get a date with Shep like the LI's on the Normandy? Or should I be prepared for a replay of that scene where Shepard stares into a damn photo?

*snip*

Bring it on, Biowar. I'm ready.

I want a video-chat scene for non-squad LI's. I just want to have one last chance to talk to them before the climax, whatever it will be (haven't read those spoilers).

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
How do you write such a character within the constraints of a game's content?

Well, you might not be able to adequately cover all those aspects, but that doesn't mean that many of the important ones should be ignored (I think we would agree).

Really, the Cerberus connection being dropped after a throwaway line or two is the unacceptable part. Some of the other things I could imagine not getting to in detail. But Cerberus is all over the place in this game. Problem is Miranda is basically never there, except for one mission involving her family.

Her mission even leads to the crucial scenes involving Cerberus, but there is a plot contrivance to prevent Miranda from being involved with those. So, if she's not involved, it's not because it's too complicated.

Absolutely. I didn't mean it as an excuse to ignore her most imporant plot connection. That would be inexcusable. You hear me, Bioware? INEXCUSABLE! Yes, I know I and several others have already said it several times, but it bears repeating.

(Not sure if that plot contrivance isn't one of several options, though - I see three different ways that can turn out)

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Well, in that analysis, there's still the Cerberus connection and the genetic engineering to deal with. But it's true that those also may have been unintentionally complex, in the sense that both were supposed to be perceived as bad stuff that Miranda leaves behind, basically, or separates herself from in some way.

In that sense, it would be more that fans don't react to her the way the writers expected, as Ieldra has previously suggested. So, a combination of things.

They shouldn't be surprised that some players don't buy into that "human advancement" = racism = bad thing they appear to have going at Bioware, and connect to the only character who might give "human advancement" a good face. 

And if they'll try to sell me that "genetic engineering = bad" crap, I swear ME3 will be the last Bioware game I'm going to play. If they're unable to deal with moral complexities in an adequate manner, their games are plainly not for the likes of me.

Edit:
Admittedly the genophage is an interesting problem, but they appear to balk at certain specific issues.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 novembre 2011 - 10:25 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
They shouldn't be surprised that some players don't buy into that "human advancement" = racism = bad thing they appear to have going at Bioware, and connect to the only character who might give "human advancement" a good face. 

And if they'll try to sell me that "genetic engineering = bad" crap, I swear ME3 will be the last Bioware game I'm going to play. If they're unable to deal with moral complexities in an adequate manner, their games are plainly not for the likes of me.

Well, I can only see one good reason, other than simply having no desire to provide the character with adequate screentime, for Miranda's connection to Cerberus not being exploited: the writers don't want to deal with the messy implications. Miranda would have to explain herself, defend herself, probably accept some future consequences, she'd have to articulate some relatively complex ideas. So, they may just not care to explore those things with Miranda, which is basically what jtav is saying.

The writers do explore some relatively complex stuff elsewhere, so it's not as if the game can't handle it.

To me, this may be the most inexcusable thing of all because I'm drawn to the character largely because of that complexity, and because she's a character with a brain, by which I don't mean she's smart (that's easy and very common), but she has ideas and ideals. That's relatively rare. Problematic ones, which is even better. So, if that's dumped, as it appears to be in the leak, then that will be the worst possible choice imo. Better that her ideas change or evolve, or that she has to face some consequences for her past mistakes. But side-stepping the issue is not acceptable.

On the genetic engineering = bad thing, well, that at least I think will be dealt with in the scene with *spoiler character*. How will it go? It's really hard to say. I think I can guess how it would have gone, but perhaps fan feedback will produce a somewhat different version, or two versions, according to player choice.

Modifié par flemm, 26 novembre 2011 - 10:34 .

[Master Shiori]

flemm...

Well, in that analysis, there's still the Cerberus connection and the genetic engineering to deal with.

Cerberus connection definitely needs to be addressed, especially given the role that organization plays in ME3.

Miranda's genetic engineering is a topic that she and Shepard discussed several times during the course of ME2 and it was my impression that Miranda got to term with it and realized genes aren't the only thing responsible for her success.

The only other possible issue would be that of Oriana, especially if TIM decides to use her as a tool to keep Miranda in line.

Iedra2 wrote...

They shouldn't be surprised that some players don't buy into that "human advancement" = racism = bad thing they appear to have going at Bioware, and connect to the only character who might give "human advancement" a good face.

I don't consider Cerberus' agenda to be bad by default. Certainly, it's methods are questionable, but the overall goals themselves (at least as Miri presented them) are praise worthy.

It's just that Cerberus seems to be suffering from Bioware trying to portray them either incompetent (what with most operations we've seen blowing up in their faces. Project Lazarus and the events of ME: Galaxy excluded) or too morally dubious for people to accept.
I'd say the best solution for Cerberus is to take TIM and his lackeys out of the picture and rebuild the organization under someone more competent, like Miranda.

[Dr. Doctor]

What confuses me right now with ME3 is what exactly plans on going with the story.

Evolution shows us that TIM didn't start Cerberus less off of the hatred of aliens so much as he started it to defend humanity against the then-unknown threat he saw in the visions from the Prothean Beacon. He's not so much villainous as he is misguided

Characters such as Gabby, Ken, Gardner, and Jacob show us that not all who are apart of Cerberus are xenophobic madmen and murderers in ME2. They joined because the organization offered them a way to serve humanity in a way that wasn't hamstrung by the politicing of the Alliance and the Council. Miranda offers up an interpretation that Cerberus exists to help humanity create its own future.

Meanwhile, we have the Cerberus missions in ME1, Akuze, Pragia, Overlord, and Retribution that depict Cerberus as either being incompetent, monstrous, or both.

The question is what direction are we going to see with Cerberus? Are we going to see splinter groups of people with beliefs similar to Miranda's or are they just going to reduce them to being Space ****'s and  dedicate more time to developing the Reaper storyline?

[Master Shiori]

Knowing the ME writers they'll probably show the otganization as being uterly irredemable and it'll be destroyed by the end of ME3. A real shame since there was much potential here for exploring the grey morality and some difficult choices one has to make to ensure the advancement of it's race.

Cerberus has a lot of potential, but looking at how they were portrayed so far in games and other media, I don't think Bioware see them as anything other than another set of bad guys for Shepard to fight.

[alperez]

It is one of the things that i'm particularly annoyed about regarding a lot of the script in that its predicatable and not in a good way imo.

The whole cerberus/tim arc seems like its written by different people who have no clue what anyone else may have wrote about them so each person is giving their own interpretation of what cerberus are, what they stand for, how competent they are and tim himself.

As a result we get mixed messages, on the one hand TIM is a master manipulator on the other he's a complete idiot, on the one hand cerberus are completely incompetent on the other they're potentially the biggest threat Shepard faces in stopping the reapers, the whole thing is in parts completely all over the place when even if they'd been the least bit consistent it would make perfect sense.

To me it seems that a lot of what happens both with the characters themselves and with certain plotlines is just thrown together on the fly, when you then start listening to some of the things the devs say it really does come across as if they didn't plan things out and when faced with the problems that this caused, they had no idea what the solutions were.

When you see things like Tali's role was supposed to be one thing and then was changed not because it fitted the story but because people forced that change by complaining it really does show that in a lot of cases there was no coherent plan in place to support the storyline.

So seeing cerberus being used in such a mish mash fashion really shouldn't come as a surprise.

[Xilizhra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

What confuses me right now with ME3 is what exactly plans on going with the story.

Evolution shows us that TIM didn't start Cerberus less off of the hatred of aliens so much as he started it to defend humanity against the then-unknown threat he saw in the visions from the Prothean Beacon. He's not so much villainous as he is misguided

Characters such as Gabby, Ken, Gardner, and Jacob show us that not all who are apart of Cerberus are xenophobic madmen and murderers in ME2. They joined because the organization offered them a way to serve humanity in a way that wasn't hamstrung by the politicing of the Alliance and the Council. Miranda offers up an interpretation that Cerberus exists to help humanity create its own future.

Meanwhile, we have the Cerberus missions in ME1, Akuze, Pragia, Overlord, and Retribution that depict Cerberus as either being incompetent, monstrous, or both.

The question is what direction are we going to see with Cerberus? Are we going to see splinter groups of people with beliefs similar to Miranda's or are they just going to reduce them to being Space ****'s and  dedicate more time to developing the Reaper storyline?

It's not inconsistent at all. TIM himself isn't necessarily xenophobic, but he's utterly amoral and finds xenophobic people easy to use. There are some decent people in Cerberus, but I suspect TIM scraped up just about all of them to put into the Lazarus Cell to present a friendly face to Shepard. The remainder are likely easily killed outliers.

[Master Shiori]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not inconsistent at all. TIM himself isn't necessarily xenophobic, but he's utterly amoral and finds xenophobic people easy to use. There are some decent people in Cerberus, but I suspect TIM scraped up just about all of them to put into the Lazarus Cell to present a friendly face to Shepard. The remainder are likely easily killed outliers.

That pretty much obvious when one looks at the crew roster of Normandy SR2. Everyone there is either ex-Alliance who left to follow Shepard again or operatives who genuinely believe in advancing the cause of humanity and protecting it.

Heck, even MIranda admits that too many people join Cerberus out of simple xenophobia..

[CuseGirl]

Jessica Merizan wrote...

Hey guys, that Tali thing is incorrect. I've confirmed this with two different writers tonight.

@Quole please don't come on support threads and bash on the character. That's a good way to get in trouble with me. I don't like getting all schoolmarm so don't make me go there.

For everyone else, if you know anything about me (which is completely understandable if you don't) Miranda is my favorite character in the series. I've always wanted to cosplay as her but silly insecurities get in the way. So I'm definitely hoping she's a squad member or has some kind of prominent role in the game. After spending time with the writing team and devs in general, I know they have good reasons for doing things and I trust they'll treat Miranda with care (all the IP really).

But we can sit on pins and needles together

rock that catsuit

[flemm]

Master Shiori wrote...
Heck, even MIranda admits that too many people join Cerberus out of simple xenophobia..

She also says that a lot of Cerberus' personnel are ex-Alliance. So the Normandy crew doesn't seem to be all that special in that regard. Are they unusual for not being very xenophobic? Perhaps to a point, but it's plausible that a lot of Cerberus personnel do not have extremist views.

Xilizhra wrote...
It's not inconsistent at all. TIM himself isn't necessarily xenophobic, but he's utterly amoral and finds xenophobic people easy to use. There are some decent people in Cerberus, but I suspect TIM scraped up just about all of them to put into the Lazarus Cell to present a friendly face to Shepard. The remainder are likely easily killed outliers.

At the end of the day, it's a creative choice, which is what Dr. Doctor is saying. It could plausibly go either way.

Beyond that, there is some evidence of rebellious Cerberus elements in the leaked script. Inexplicably, Miranda doesn't seem to be associated with any of them. Her views on the subject are entirely nebulous, which makes no sense. She, of all people, should have strong views on Cerberus. There's some leeway as to what, precisely, those views would be, and I could see them varying somewhat according to player choice. But no strong opinion? No dialog about what she thinks on the subject? That's a massive omission.

Modifié par flemm, 27 novembre 2011 - 12:20 .

[Xilizhra]

She, of all people, would have strong views on Cerberus.

I don't know. I think at this point, she's extremely conflicted.

[flemm]

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't know. I think at this point, she's extremely conflicted.

Well, that's one possibility, but being conflicted implies having strong views (just complicated and possibly contradictory ones). If she's conflicted, then we need to hear about that. In the leaked script, she's not conflicted, the issue is just ignored. She might have quit her job at a café on Illium for all one can tell from the script.

Modifié par flemm, 27 novembre 2011 - 12:23 .

[CuseGirl]

Master Shiori wrote...I was under the impression that Miranda still has an important role in ME3, despite not being a full time squadmember? Granted, if I had a choice I'd rather she be present on board the Normandy, but I trust the writers will do her character, story and romance justice either way. 

Miranda, along with Liara, Mordin, Tali and Legion, is one of those characters who can do a lot to aid you even outside Normandy. She has the skills, intelligence and potential to shine outside of Shepard's shadow. 

Maybe I'm selfish and shortsighted but to me, if a character isn't on my squad permanently or I dont even get a dialogue option to put that character on my squad permanently, that means the devs or writers are saying "he/she isn't important". And I think it's laughable that Miranda isn't important enuff to be an optional permanent squadmate, but it's so important you need to FORCE me to take Tali and Garrus, most likely introduce another human female LI option, and place Vega on the squad as well. It's like they made ME-2 without knowing they were making ME-3.

I agree, those characters you listed would do alot more off the Normandy than on, but they've made it clear: yea, ME-2 was nice and all, but this group HERE, you're stuck with them. I don't like it....

And not to open up a can of console fanboy worms but I think it's a little unfair to the new group of PS3 gamers they got, who in essence want to play ME-3 because of ME-2......

[JosephDucreux]

So are there going to be any big gaming conventions come Christmas period?

[Dr. Doctor]

No gaming conventions this winter, GDC usually marks the start of the trade show season but that's in March.

Going back to Miranda,  from a writing standpoint if she plays a pivotal role in the final parts of the game it makes little sense to reintroduce her character at the last minute, especially considering that Bioware wants new players to be able to understand what's going on.

To me what would work is to have her role work a little bit like River Song in Doctor Who. Reintroduce her in the first major mission of the Cerberus arc and then have her pop up whenever the Cerberus arc needs to advance. Personally, I wouldn't mind not having her around all the time as long as I get to talk to her from time to time as long as she gets to go off and have her own adventures without Shepard.

[HydroStrikor]

Hey everyone,
Its Striker (the Miranda artist from after the ME2 launch.) It's been along time! I avoid the forums like the plauge due to spoilers, however, I wanted to drop in and share my latest piece with you all. Enjoy



or not...it seems its removing the image. You can check it out in my gallery if you'd like!

http://connormaxon.d...t.com/#/d4h11pb

Modifié par HydroStrikor, 27 novembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[flemm]

Awesome image, Striker, thanks for posting the link.

[coogi]

Alright, after spending way too much time on the internet searching for whether or not Miranda will be in ME3, I found out almost nothing concrete save for the leaked content that says there'll be a mission with her, and that's about it. So my question is this: Does anyone have ANYTHING concrete, or semi-concrete that revolves around Miranda being in ME3?

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

HydroStrikor wrote...

Hey everyone,
Its Striker (the Miranda artist from after the ME2 launch.) It's been along time! I avoid the forums like the plauge due to spoilers, however, I wanted to drop in and share my latest piece with you all. Enjoy

*snip*

or not...it seems its removing the image. You can check it out in my gallery if you'd like!

http://connormaxon.d...t.com/#/d4h11pb

O.O *FAINTS with a smile on his face:wub:*

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 27 novembre 2011 - 04:44 .

[flemm]

coogi wrote...
 Does anyone have ANYTHING concrete, or semi-concrete that revolves around Miranda being in ME3?

Well, other than the leak, we know nothing except that she will be in the game in some capacity (that's all that's been said officially).

The leak suggests she will be featured in one mission, with some additional interaction before that, and possibly a little afterwards.

Modifié par flemm, 27 novembre 2011 - 05:32 .

[Homebound]

so sum it up for me, this non-miri fan. i keep gettin word around the bsn that you mirifans got rammed HARD. what exactly happened in the leaks?

[Ieldra]

Hellbound555 wrote...
so sum it up for me, this non-miri fan. i keep gettin word around the bsn that you mirifans got rammed HARD. what exactly happened in the leaks?

Basically, what flemm said. The main point of criticism is that Miranda's Cerberus connection appears to be completely ignored excepting a line or two in a conversation, which not only leaves that aspect of her hanging in a vacuum, but also makes her appear to focus too much on personal stuff. Basically, the thing that everyone thought would give her at least a reasonably big role in the game, given that Cerberus is one of the main antagonists, is not present at all. There are a few other concerns, but they're minor compared to this.

So while the leaked material is incomplete, with Miranda's parts appearing to be more incomplete than most others', should this not change, then we got, as you say "rammed hard". More about this in the spoiler group.