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[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...

It's a bit hard to retain moral ambiguity when the people you are figthing are so pure, raw evil. No matter what you choose to do, you can always say "At least I didn't set up Sanctuary". Building Cerberus to that was the first mistake.
That Miranda has not joined the Alliance and is willing to work behind their back is a step in the right direction.

Well, Miranda opposing Cerberus, given what TIM has allowed the organisation to become, is pretty much a given. But that shouldn't remove the ambiguities of Miranda's character. On the contrary, as you say, it should allow them to be retained and emphasized, because Cerberus and TIM have gone so far toward "pure evil."

The opposition is there, but it comes across as incidental to personal concerns. Motivations, goals, ideas and ideals are not explored or addressed.

In some ways, I guess you could say the script lets Miranda off the hook: her past involvement with this Evil organisation is basically ignored. But that's a cop-out more than anything.

Modifié par flemm, 27 novembre 2011 - 07:19 .

[jtav]

spoiler

Actually I think she might have de facto joined the Alliance. She mentions that the brass can't afford to be choosy about who helps.

[flemm]

Re: the spoiler above, that's related to Miranda asking about the *spoiler* resources? If so, I'm not sure it's a sign that she's joined up, but more that she's offered to help on the side. Still, that's part of the area of the script that feels unfinished.

[jtav]

And she shouldn't be let off the hook. It was precisely the fact that I found her morally repulsive and idealistic that interested me. I've got good people running out my ears in both games.

[MisterJB]

Agreed with flemm, that seems more like helping on the side. One way or another, she is, at least, doing something that she shouldn't.

Spoilers There's also the suggestion that she attempted to salvage Sanctuary's research, even after making her best to assure that that particular piece of Hell would be shut down.

[jtav]

Where are you getting your spoiler from MisterJB?

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

And she shouldn't be let off the hook.

Agreed. If Cerberus is going to be Evil with a capital E, or at least reveal itself as such, then Miranda needs to come to terms with her involvement in that Evil. And, most of all, she should seek actively to do something about it, not just incidentally.

"Doing something about it" doesn't mean all complexity needs to be lost. She can still believe in the need for an organisation like "Humanity's STG," or "Cerberus as it should have been," or something along those lines.

That would doubtless ****** some people off, but that is exactly what's missing from the script imo: the thing that Miranda does that will get under the skin of some players.

The key thing is that the whole issue can't just disappear as if Miranda never really cared about any of this at all. A huge part of her involvement in ME2 is her caring about exactly those things.

Modifié par flemm, 27 novembre 2011 - 07:39 .

[MisterJB]

Deduction work.
Spoilers:Kai Leng was sent to recuperate the research. Miranda meets with Leng alone. Thus, she could have been trying to salvage the research herself

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...

Deduction work.

I see what you're getting at. It's an interesting idea.

Spoiler...

She may be going after the research. I can't tell for sure, but I guess the "surprise" might be that, in the scenario where she lives, she actually gets the research, or a copy of it. Whereas, if she dies, Leng (or only Leng) gets it.

Not sure.

"Meets with him" doesn't seem right, though. It seems like he either gets the drop on her, or she knows he's there, and outwits him.

Modifié par flemm, 27 novembre 2011 - 07:49 .

[jtav]

And I see the attempt to whitewash Miranda by omission as backfiring horribly. The game draws very clear and deliberate parallels to the N*zis. Given Miranda's status as second-in-command, I find it unlikely she didn't know about some of the shadier bits of the organization's past. Even if she were entirely innocent, what they're doing now should be cause for some reflection and guilt on her part because her identity was so closely tied to Cerberus. Brushing off the association makes her look unfeeling and players will notice.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

And I see the attempt to whitewash Miranda by omission as backfiring horribly. The game draws very clear and deliberate parallels to the N*zis. I find it unlikely she didn't know about some of the shadier bits of the organization's past. Even if she were entirely innocent, what they're doing now should be cause for some reflection and guilt on her part because her identity was so closely tied to Cerberus. Brushing off the association makes her look unfeeling and players will notice.

Well, one of the reasons it has to be addressed is that indifference to what is happening makes no sense from anyone who worked for the organisation, let alone its 2IC.

If JB is right, then what she is doing, probably, is... *spoiler*

Looking for a way to free TIM's indoctrinated slaves. Mr. lawson seems to have been tasked with producing them. If so, problem solved.

Information is too scarce for me to be confident that's what's actually happening, though.

Anyway, we need to hear her talk, think and express emotions about her past involvement with the organisation. What it was, and what it should be/should have been, in her opinion. I guess, following Mister JB's reasoning, the moment this would primarily happen would be the conversation with *spoiler character* that we know is missing, and potentially when she shows up at the end with *spoiler suggested by the hidden text above*.

TIM would still be missing, which would be a big omission, but the basics could plausibly be covered in that scenario.

[jtav]

That would be sufficiently awesome that I'd shut up. Unfortunately, I think that might be Jacob's contribution. The scientists he's protecting were working on indoctrination before they defected. Damn it, why couldn't she have Dr. Cole's role?

[flemm]

Well, speculation, but...


To get the best result there, you might have to have good outcomes to both Miranda and Jacob's missions, with the endgame scenario being perhaps "good, better, best" accordingly. Something like that.

Barring some new organisation being founded, it would make sense for Miranda to be responsable for organising the rebellious Cerberus splinter cells into one fighting force for the endgame. I'm seeing only meager evidence for that here, if any, but I guess the possibility is still on the table, given the apparent gaps in Miranda's involvement in this script.

Modifié par flemm, 27 novembre 2011 - 08:36 .

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

Barring some new organisation being founded, it would make sense for Miranda to be responsable for organising the rebellious Cerberus splinter cells into one fighting force for the endgame. I'm seeing only meager evidence for that here, if any, but I guess the possibility is still on the table, given the apparent gaps in Miranda's involvement in this script.

While i would prefer to have Miranda join up for endgame, the current proposed structure seems designed to avoid that. So her leading a rebellious section of Cerberus would both serve to show that the organisation wasn't purely evil and give her a presence at endgame.

[flemm]

wright1978 wrote...

While i would prefer to have Miranda join up for endgame, the current proposed structure seems designed to avoid that. So her leading a rebellious section of Cerberus would both serve to show that the organisation wasn't purely evil and give her a presence at endgame.

Well, I'd love to have Miranda join up at some point as well, though I guess my ideal scenario would be that she joins up somewhere in the mid-game for awhile, but is leading a faction by the end.

Anyway, if Bioware decided at some point that Miranda should join up, then great.

Some kind of direct impact and presence in the endgame seems more likely based on this script, and uniting Cerberus splinter cells into a fighting force seems like a pretty good choice to me. One that the script theoretically leaves open (though there's not much, or practically no evidence of it actually happening, either).

Modifié par flemm, 27 novembre 2011 - 08:54 .

[Ieldra]

I think it basically useless to speculate based on the script - things being so vague that the only thing we can say is that it's unexpected and that it's there.

So I'll just say what I'd like to see (as an example): I would like to see Miranda as a faction leader in the end. Her contribution should be mainly scientific/technological but could also involve Cerberus renegades. I'd also love it if it tweaks the noses of the Alliance officials while contributing to the victory in a big way.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 novembre 2011 - 09:24 .

[Master Shiori]

I'd be happy if she was present at the end in any capacity. Although, I wonder how much of Cerberus will be left once we've dealt with TIM and his followers.

[alperez]

Miranda organising the cerberus splinter cells and leading them or organising them into a fighting force for the endhame leaves my Han Solo rescue moment open to being a possibility which i like.

One thing that i remember from when i really had faith in Bioware and was more likely to take what they said at face value was that the endgame scenarios themselves would change more than a bit because of certain actions we took.

Considering in the leaks its hard to see where the real consequences of your actions lie and what we see is on the face of it consequences being the same in a lot of cases in terms of setting things up, it could be possible that once we get to the endgame that's actually where certain variables really kick in and where things will actually change based on what we've done.

Not the outcome so much but more the flavour of that outcome, so say for example Miranda's arc has certain key points, its only if we hit all those points that we would see a particular role for her, if we instead missed some of them then perhaps the role is different, so maybe why we're not seeing it is because not only had it not been written but they hadn't actually fleshed out the complete details themselves.

At the moment a problem i have with the script that doesn't seem to be addressed is replayability, if things play out based on how it looks at the minute, i really can't see why i'd want to replay apart from perhaps different romance arcs, but even that may not be enough to make you want to replay the same game with pretty much the same outcome every time.

So maybe its the actual endgame where things really do change and all we've seen so far is the basic ideas of that endgame.

[jtav]

We need some good news. I found Matt's savegame file. But I need some reassurance that Miranda's worth a romance. Because right now I'm thinking of staying faithful to Liara or running off with Jack.

[flemm]

Well, if there's any good news to be had before release, I expect it will be given when/if Strahovski is back in the studio. I'm actually bracing myself for some bad news there as well, just in case. Better to be pleasantly surprised than otherwise.

Modifié par flemm, 27 novembre 2011 - 09:43 .

[Master Shiori]

alperez wrote...


So maybe its the actual endgame where things really do change and all we've seen so far is the basic ideas of that endgame.

Well, it is the final chapter in Shepard's story, so no reason for Bioware to not go all out when it comes to endgame. 

It's not like the next ME game needs to pick up on what happened in ME3 or who survived and how.

[Ieldra]

[quote]jtav wrote...
We need some good news. I found Matt's savegame file. But I need some reassurance that Miranda's worth a romance. Because right now I'm thinking of staying faithful to Liara or running off with Jack.[/quote]
It may be fanfic, but I have some ideas about the endgame and Miranda. I need a little more time to iron them out though.

And Liara and Jack can never compete with Miranda romance-wise.

Also this hasn't been posted on this page yet:

[quote]@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler location follows* The Illusive Man's base. Details see here and here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 novembre 2011 - 09:55 .

[alperez]

Master Shiori wrote...

Well, it is the final chapter in Shepard's story, so no reason for Bioware to not go all out when it comes to endgame. 

It's not like the next ME game needs to pick up on what happened in ME3 or who survived and how.

Exactly my thoughs, but everytime i start thinking like that a little voice in the back of my head starts whispering "Revan" and my pessimism rises.

[jtav]

Well, there was always going to be a canon Revan. Lucasfilm policy.

I just want an equal for Shep. I never doubted it was Miranda until the leak showed up.

[alperez]

jtav wrote...

Well, there was always going to be a canon Revan. Lucasfilm policy.

I just want an equal for Shep. I never doubted it was Miranda until the leak showed up.

See what happens when i post without thinking lol.

I meant something else completely, got mixed up in my head about Revan and now for the life of me can't remember what point i was trying to make in the first place, now hopefully if the worst case scenario happens in me3 regarding Miranda i'll be able to use my new found amnesiac skills to forget about that also.