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[jtav]

And speaking of fanfic, thanks to my own insanity and an absolutely terriffic beta, the next installment of Shadow War is up. Reviews appreciated.

The Galaxy or the Girl

Modifié par jtav, 29 novembre 2011 - 02:29 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
And here's to remind everyone that Miranda should not care exclusively about Oriana in ME3. Yes, she's protective of her sister, but it's a damned war for survival. She wouldn't forget the big picture. I would hate it if what she does in ME3 came across as nothing more than a repeat of her ME2 loyalty mission.

Agreed. It's not enough that the ME3 mission happens to incidentally have significance for the bigger picture. Miranda herself has to have some sort of additional goal besides dealing with family matters. It's nice that those get dealt with along the way, but there should be something else to balance that.

I'll use this opportunity to repeat that Miranda taking part in another Cerberus-related mission would solve that problem, too:

----

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure.
Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler location follows* the Illusive Man's base. Details see here and here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 novembre 2011 - 02:27 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
And speaking of fanfic, thanks to my own insanity and an absolutely terriffic beta, the next installment of Shadow War is up. Reviews appreciated.

The Galaxy or the Girl

Wow....you're writing fast these days. Preparing to retreat into fanfic if Miranda turns out to be decayed from her earlier personality? I admit after spending some time reorganizing the leaked stuff I am very, very, concerned about her focus on the personal.

As for the choice, it is one Matt could have easily presented Mr.Eldfell with: "If the Reapers win, you won't survive along with everyone else. You should spend your billions on supporting the war without me even having to ask. Instead, you'd weigh one person against your support." It's hinted at in Matt's later words: "And he isn't the only wealthy man out there. Most of them won't even lay conditions on saving their lives".

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 novembre 2011 - 02:45 .

[jtav]

I don't think Matt's the sanest person in the world when it comes to the Eldfell family. And, metareaoning, I needed Eldfell to reveal his plan B after Matt had turned him down. As for the speed, the truth is that I'll probably be too angry to even retreat once the game comes out, So, I'm doing it now. As far as I'm concerned, Portrait and Shadow War are what really happened.

[CrutchCricket]

Well... I go away for a few days and what happens? Back to negativity, pessimism and tossing the leak back and forth like a game of hot potato with a particularly rotten vegetable. Can't say I'm surprised, but after last week's fiasco, I can't say I'm motivated to argue against it either. At least the GMag imitator trolls provided a break and were mildly amusing.

I must make a note here for your stories jtav. While I'm sure they're excellent I'm not reading them just yet. I have this faint hope of actually writing some of my own and don't wish to be influenced by (and perhaps unintentionally plagiarize) your work. I started something a week or so ago that actually changed into something surprising. If this isn't a writing monopoly perhaps I will post here when it's done.

And then there's the half-pager post. Christ, I think quite a few motions in the Senate had shorter proposals than that post. Then again I've written up to three pages on similar subject matter myself so maybe I'm not one to talk... nope checked in Word, seven pages, you've certainly beat my record ubermensch007. Unfortunately your reward is that most of it probably won't be commented on beyond Ieldra's inital refutation of you points. On that note I will add this to the control chip/apology debate:

1. Controlling a berserk Shepard is not entirely out of the question as a concern given that Lazarus is really just Frankensteining the **** out of Shepard and it could've easily gone the same route as that story only set 20 Min into the Future

2. Barring that, everything that Miranda said regarding Shepard (control chip, sorry I doubted you) was more to do with loyalty to Cerberus and willingness to work with them than with Shepard's command or combat abilities. Shepard may have been a hero but he may also have been indoctrinated (and I use that term deliberately though not in the Reaper sense) to believe the Council's/Alliance propaganda about Cerbers being irredeemably evil, a terrorist organization. Would any government agent today willingly work with a known terrorist organization? Maybe. But there's no reason for the "terrorists" to assume the agent would do so willingly, even if they saved him.

[flemm]

MsSihaKatieKrios wrote...
But then again, you shold always get your head screwed on straight before doing anything. Deal with personal issues first, then setlle the other things later. That's completely logical for Miranda.

Well, that's the logic of the ME2 loyalty missions: take care of some personal stuff to be more focused for the important stuff.

It's one of the reasons why, as Ieldra points out, Miranda's ME3 material may come across as essentially a repeat of the ME2 loyalty mission.

With a big difference, though: in ME2, once you get the LM out of the way, there's the SM in which Miranda plays an important role (not to mention mission debriefings and the fact that she's on the squad all the time). In the leaked script, there's just the one mission. It's been set up to have plot relevance, but that is incidental/accidental from the perspective of Miranda's motivations.

So, basically, getting the personal out of the way first makes sense, if there's something very significant later, but not so much if there isn't. In the leaked script, there isn't. This is what many of us would like to see amended.

Modifié par flemm, 29 novembre 2011 - 03:37 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda's apology
Remember the prologue? Shepard is "a symbol, a bloody icon" and "if he falls, humanity might as well follow". She may be jealous of him, but she knows how important Shepard is and accepts his achievements as extraordinary. So why the hell would she say she believed he's not up to the task later? It *may* be another case of inconsistent characterization that plagues Miranda's dialogue, but it's also possible she was jealous and didn't want to admit it, so she said something that sounds more reasonable on the surface.

It could also be that Miranda believed that Shepard was a symbol and thus, should be used like one. He should be wearing regal uniforms, making speeches and appearing heroic. Not being given command of a suicide mission that might decide the fate of the human race.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
Can I ask when and where this was established? Because I went down this road with another fan and established decidedly that it held no water.

Miranda's only concern she voices pre-FP is Shepard compromising what Cerberus stands for and whether he'll be an asset or liability. She expresses no concern over whether or not he's a threat to Cerberus security, at any juncture in the game, what to say of when she was discussing the control chip itself.

I do agree that her lack of trust in Shepard's call was, more likely than not, the main reason that led Miranda to wanting to implant him with a control chip that would prevent him from making stupid decisions like appointing Thane or Jack as Fire Team Leaders.
However, you just said it yourself, Miranda was concerned that Shepard could be a liability to Cerberus. If delivering the files recovered from Lorek to the Alliance or keeping them for himself isn't a threat to Cerberus security, I don't know what is.

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 novembre 2011 - 04:19 .

[Labrev]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I say that because it makes no sense otherwise. You don't spend four billion credits bringing a man back to life and then make him a puppet who can only follow orders. Shepard is what he is because he can make decisions that affect the galaxy and make people follow him. If you could make those decisions yourself, you wouldn't need Shepard, and if you could make people follow you, you wouldn't need Shepard either. Can you imagine Shepard conditioned like the colonists on Feros still having that "fire that makes people follow him into hell itself"? No way. A slave doesn't make inspiring speeches in the service of his masters. You could prevent Shepard from doing anything against Cerberus' interests with a control chip, but as soon as he realized he was a slave, he would cease to use his inspiring passion in the service of Cerberus. That's something you can't force.

Miranda knows why Shepard is special - she says so in the prologue. And she isn't stupid. Which means that she wouldn't install a control chip as anything but an emergency measure. Because if the chip had been used even once, Shepard's value would've been severely diminished, if not totally negated.

(there is also spoiler material pertaining to this issue. Tell me if you want to know)

I have no problem with spoilers.

I'm not saying the intent of the control-chip is without flaws, like what you pointed out. Just the idea of having it doesn't seem to go beyond the idea of Shepard and Cerberus having differences of opinion, which seems to be Miranda's biggest concern, and the only concern she expresses. It seems the very negatives that you mentioned (compromising his personality) is the only thing that outweighed her desire, which reinforces the notion that it's purpose is to control his motives and not merely aggressive actions.

Miranda, while not stupid, is not infalliable either. She said clearly that if it were up to her, he would have that chip in him. It wouldn't be the last time she screws something up in front of our eyes (trusting Niket). And again, it goes against what they are doing by allowing someone like Jack on the ship.

The other problem I have with that explanation is the overall unlikelihood of it:

(1) What's the chance Shepard goes beserk on the people that bring him back to life without trying to at least seek answers first? It's possible, but fairly unlikely to start out with.

(2) Shepard was armed with a mere pistol in the prologue, by chance that the facility had come under attack. I should doubt even Shepard could wipe out the Cerberus facility, complete with a security mechs plus Jacob and Miranda, with a mere pistol (if he ever got a hold of it in the first place) and biotics/tech (again, if he has those).

(3a) If the project goes to plan, how much of a threat does Shepard pose unarmed and unaware of his whereabouts? (3b) It appears that they did not plan to tell him where he was until Jacob fesses up, knowingly against what they wanted (and in the unpredictable scenario where Wilson tried to sabotage the project). So they'd have taken Shepard to TIM without him knowing who he's with. And he seems to have lived under a rock as well, unable to indentify Cerberus insignias which can be seen in the years-defunct Teltin facility.

(4) In the extreme case where Shepard finds out he's with Cerberus and decides irrationally to go beserk, what's the worst-case scenario, he kills the expendable crew and gets a shuttle off-world? The Lazarus team didn't even warrant a sweep for survivors at the end of the intro mission. They'd have even left Miranda behind if she didn't make it to the shuttle. From what we've seen of Cerberus, a cell imploding and all/most of its employees dying off is par for the course, Lazarus would only join a long list.

Frankly, Cerberus and security don't even belong in the same sentence (more reason why I doubt that purpose for the chip).

*edit* sorry, block-of-text.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 29 novembre 2011 - 05:08 .

[CrutchCricket]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
And again, it goes against what they are doing by allowing someone like Jack on the ship.

The other problem I have with that explanation is the overall unlikelihood of it:

(1) What's the chance Shepard goes beserk on the people that bring him back to life without trying to at least seek answers first? It's possible, but fairly unlikely to start out with.

(2) Shepard was armed with a mere pistol in the prologue, by chance that the facility had come under attack. I should doubt even Shepard could wipe out the Cerberus facility, complete with a security mechs plus Jacob and Miranda, with a mere pistol (if he ever got a hold of it in the first place) and biotics/tech (again, if he has those).

(3a) If the project goes to plan, how much of a threat does Shepard pose unarmed and unaware of his whereabouts? (3b) It appears that they did not plan to tell him where he was until Jacob fesses up, knowingly against what they wanted (and in the unpredictable scenario where Wilson tried to sabotage the project). So they'd have taken Shepard to TIM without him knowing who he's with. And he seems to have lived under a rock as well, unable to indentify Cerberus insignias which can be seen in the years-defunct Teltin facility.

(4) In the extreme case where Shepard finds out he's with Cerberus and decides irrationally to go beserk, what's the worst-case scenario, he kills the expendable crew and gets a shuttle off-world? The Lazarus team didn't even warrant a sweep for survivors at the end of the intro mission. They'd have even left Miranda behind if she didn't make it to the shuttle. From what we've seen of Cerberus, a cell imploding and all/most of its employees dying off is par for the course, Lazarus would only join a long list.

Frankly, Cerberus and security don't even belong in the same sentence (more reason why I doubt that purpose for the chip).

*edit* sorry, block-of-text.

Miranda allow Jack on the ship? What makes you think she had any say in the matter? She's the XO not CO of the Normandy and even if she wanted to go above Shep's head to Cerberus command, it's TIM who ordered Jack onboard in the first place. Miranda may not want Jack onboard but she's outranked both on the Normandy and within Cerberus.

As for point 1, I understood the initial suggestion as mindlessly berserk (which is why I drew the Frankenstein parallel). No one would seek answers there. Poins 2-4 can be answered with this: Cerberus wouldn't risk not just their safety but also that of their asset (without cause or expected benefit). If Shepard woke up, went crazy and had to be put down that's two years and billions of credits down the crapper.

[Ieldra]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
I have no problem with spoilers.

OK. Miranda speaks (spoilers follow):
When I headed the Lazarus Project to rebuild you, I wanted to implant a control chip in you as a safeguard.
I've never had to deal with that many black boxes on a project. I felt blind.

As for your other points, may I point out that Shepard is augmented. He could've done a great deal of damage, maybe they would've had to put him down with lethal force. It is basically the same thinking that made Miranda successful where others failed in their projects. She is careful. That doesn't make the chip better, but it wasn't done for frivolous readons as you suggest.

Also what CrutchCricket says.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 novembre 2011 - 05:57 .

[Ieldra]

We need more pictures. You know, whatever will happen in ME3, I can't wait to see Miranda again. I've kept myself up by playing ME2 again...and again, but it does get somewhat old to look at the same scenes again and again, as nice as they are. Besides. we *really* need some Miranda pictures from ME3.

BUT: That does not reduce the need for Miranda do something that's not motivated by personal concerns. Something big!

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 novembre 2011 - 06:26 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Besides. we *really* need some Miranda pictures from ME3.

Agreed. It would be really cool. I'm hoping there'll be a little something when/if Strahovski is back in the studio. Perhaps a screenshot or two at that point.

Awesome pic

Ieldra2 wrote...
BUT: That does not reduce the need for Miranda do something that's not motivated by personal concerns. Something big!

I also don't think it's really an irrational fan demand we're talking about here. More like a natural continuation of the character's story in ME2, where the personal and the professional were both present. If anything, the Cerberus element was more prominent, so I think it's reasonable to request some significant follow up there, just as I think it's reasonable to prefer that the character not be left in limbo at the end of the game, with nothing significant to do.

In the end, I guess that's why this may have already received some work, since, even from a pure storytelling point of view, there's a big missing piece there.

Modifié par flemm, 29 novembre 2011 - 08:36 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
I also don't think it's really an irrational fan demand we're talking about here. More like a natural continuation of the character's story in ME2, where the personal and the professional were both present. If anything, the Cerberus element was more prominent, so I think it's reasonable to request some significant follow up there, just as I think it's reasonable to prefer that the character not be left in limbo at the end of the game, with nothing significant to do.

In the end, I guess that's why this may have already received some work, since, even from a pure storytelling point of view, there's a big missing piece there.

LOL. Has anyone said that was an irrational fan demand? Because I was just having a debate about fans being irrationally one-sided in their interpretation of Miranda on the TCR forum.

Yep. It's very reasonable to expect some significant follow-up. And I'm not totally pessimistic exactly because it doesn't make any sense to omit it. You know, at this point I'm looking forward to ME3 just as much for the general story and experience as for seeing whether or not we've worried about nothing all this time. I don't think it will happen, but should Miranda join Shepard's team after her mission there will be some insane laughter here (where's the "insane laughter" smiley when you need it)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 novembre 2011 - 10:04 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Has anyone said that was an irrational fan demand? Because I was just having a debate about fans being irrationally one-sided in their interpretation of Miranda on the TCR forum.

Not specifically, no, but I thought it was a point worth making

Ieldra2 wrote...
Yep. It's very reasonable to expect some significant follow-up. And I'm not totally pessimistic exactly because it doesn't make any sense to omit it.

No, that's certainly true.  If it does get dealt with, though, my reaction is mainly going to be: that's as it should be.

The smilie icon I will use is the no expression one:

It's a minimum, and always has been. Miranda joining up would merit an actual smilie: :happy:

Ok, maybe two :happy:

Modifié par flemm, 29 novembre 2011 - 10:33 .

[CrutchCricket]

That last pic you posted Ieldra is really good quality! It seems sharper than the other ones I've seen.

Anyway after last week I'm beginning to embrace a sort of zen, "less is more" view on my favorites. This is due in large part to my liking Kasumi. Here's what I posted on her thread earlier:

Consider: She didn't have a huge role in ME2, no full dialog and some people didn't even see her. Yet here I am for one, elaborating on the character's backstory and relationship with Shepard beyond the games just as much as a full character. In my mind she becomes just as important and real as the more prominent characters (though I have to make more of her up myself). So now I'm thinking maybe that's what I need to do for my other favorites as well. If it really is inevitable that they get sidelined in ME3 and are barely seen I (and the rest) need to make peace with that and embrace them in our minds.
Kasumi shows me I can do that. Of course it was easier with her since she was on the Normandy the whole game. But I think it can still be done. So my only request for Kasumi herself not is: don't screw her up and don't
kill her (without me being able to save her) It takes no resources to accomplish this. Leave her for me at the end of ME3 and I'll take it from there.

Obviously this has already been expressed on here as "retreating into fanfiction" and there will be different levels of tolerance regarding what "screwing her up" means. But for me the focus is also on not letting character disappointments ruin ME3 by virtue of it not being the end, but a mere starting point in my mind.

Well... that's the plan anyway:)

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 29 novembre 2011 - 11:16 .

[jtav]

Another excerpt. Matt's thoughts are a bit meta, considering the current situation.

"I had some free time on my hands while I was waiting for you to come. Between you and Leng, I feel like I’ve ate, slept, and breathed Lazarus for the last three years. Billions of credits and thousands of man-hours for two people. When I started on the project, I thought it was a waste of Cerberus resources. You were—are—extraordinary, but you were still just one person. But suppose we could mass-produce some of your upgrades?"

She gestured at the papers on the desk. "I've been working on some ideas. Not even close to the prototype stage at this point. Mostly just trying to get my thoughts down.”

Matt picked up the nearest sheet. It was covered with cross-sections of various human organs. Eyes, hearts, stomachs, all rendered competently but unremarkably. She’d scribbled various mathematical formulas in the margins, crossing out some and circling others. Miranda's handwriting was cramped and nearly illegible at the best of times, but the technical jargon didn't help. "I don't understand a word of this."

"And I don't understand what you see when you look at a Caravaggio. I suppose that makes us even." She smirked. "But what I did for you can be done for others. You asked me once what Cerberus stood for, and I told you that it was the advancement of the human race. I don't know if the Illusive Man ever believed that, or if it was a lie that he told me to ensure my loyalty, but I still believe. After the war, I’m going to do my best to help humanity, not just a few people with money and power."

Matt watched her. She’d told him that she lacked fire. That was a lie. Her fire was on display before him, and that fire was what drew him back to her again and again. Yes, she was beautiful but so was Aish Ashland or the Consort. Attractive women were everywhere. But passion? That was harder to find. Miranda had devoted her life to an ideal, and she had done it without being twisted into a xenophobe or a monster. Beauty and brains made her appealing. Dedication and drive made her irresistible. Matt had followed her when he’d had nothing else.

Her gaze flickered. "If we even win this war."

"I picked up Dr. Sanders on the way here. Binary Helix, Synthetic Insights, and Kassa Fabrications are all behind us hundred percent.” He took her hands in his. "So I’d say our chances are looking pretty good." Miranda would get a chance to create her better world. He’d see to that.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Another excerpt. Matt's thoughts are a bit meta, considering the current situation.

Granted. Still, great stuff.

At least it makes retreating into fanfic seem like a plausible option



On a completely ridiculous note, here's a "Hitler fanrages about Sarah not hooking up with Chuck" clip that someone apparently put together in spring 2010. It's oddly appropriate to the current situation.

Mass Effect and Miranda aren't referenced until the big tirade towards the end, but they're there



Apologies to all German speakers, I'm sure these things don't work well if you understand the actual clip

Modifié par flemm, 30 novembre 2011 - 03:07 .

[Skullheart]

Isn't there anything like "Hitler heard about the ME3 leaked script?"

[flemm]

Skullheart wrote...

Isn't there anything like "Hitler heard about the ME3 leaked script?"

Tbh, that's basically what the one above is. Somebody just did it a year and half in advance :happy:

Modifié par flemm, 30 novembre 2011 - 12:50 .

[Mathias]

Hey guys, been a while since i checked these boards. So i'm hearing that us Miri fans are getting screwed over in ME3? How so? I thought Bioware was being secretive about her because she has a big role?

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
That last pic you posted Ieldra is really good quality! It seems sharper than the other ones I've seen.

Hmm....this is the usual high-res mod of Jean-Luc's that I always use. Perhaps it's that I rarely post screenshots of her in her default outfit. Here's another one:

Anyway after last week I'm beginning to embrace a sort of zen, "less is more" view on my favorites. This is due in large part to my liking Kasumi. Here's what I posted on her thread earlier:

*snip*

Obviously this has already been expressed on here as "retreating into fanfiction" and there will be different levels of tolerance regarding what "screwing her up" means. But for me the focus is also on not letting character disappointments ruin ME3 by virtue of it not being the end, but a mere starting point in my mind.

Well... that's the plan anyway:)

As evidenced by jtav's new fanfic, we are already doing that. One good thing about the leaked script is that they haven't screwed Miranda up. What's there is good, the problems lie with what's not there and should be. It's easy to fix by adding things. But we've been over that a dozen times...

Anyway, just as you I'm determined not to let character disappointments ruin ME3. And Miranda will always be my favorite, even if I have to add the portion of her ME2 personality they may have deleted - the one who cares about the big picture and humanity - in my head and add the end of her Cerberus story arc by fanfic.

But I still hope it won't be necessary.

[Xilizhra]

With the apparent shattering of Cerberus as any force for good, I have to wonder how Miranda will define her terms of aiding humanity... it may well be that her whole life up until ME2 was a lie, serving a master whose motives were far less admirable than she thought, and one much closer to her father in character than she believed. That can't be easy to bounce back from.

[Unschuld]

Xilizhra wrote...

With the apparent shattering of Cerberus as any force for good, I have to wonder how Miranda will define her terms of aiding humanity... it may well be that her whole life up until ME2 was a lie, serving a master whose motives were far less admirable than she thought, and one much closer to her father in character than she believed. That can't be easy to bounce back from.

It would be nice if they did something like that. I may not have liked Miranda at all, personality wise, but I still consider her a great character. The hallmark of good characterization is embodied in someone you can identify with, love or hate. I'd like to see additional complexity added to her, whether it ends with her realization and demise or some sort of happy retribution. 

[JosephDucreux]

If there's anything that runs counter to the effects of an antidepressant, it has to be you jtav. One minute you're happy, and the next week you're depressed and depressing everyone.

This thread is like a rollercoaster, I swear.

[Ieldra]

Unschuld wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
With the apparent shattering of Cerberus as any force for good, I have to wonder how Miranda will define her terms of aiding humanity... it may well be that her whole life up until ME2 was a lie, serving a master whose motives were far less admirable than she thought, and one much closer to her father in character than she believed. That can't be easy to bounce back from.

It would be nice if they did something like that. I may not have liked Miranda at all, personality wise, but I still consider her a great character. The hallmark of good characterization is embodied in someone you can identify with, love or hate. I'd like to see additional complexity added to her, whether it ends with her realization and demise or some sort of happy retribution.

That's exactly what we've been asking for for the last 40 pages or so: that Miranda reflects about her past with Cerberus, confronting the possibility that TIM's picture of humanity's advancement may never have been compatible with her own, among other things. I don't think there should be an answer to the question, because one of the strengths of TIM is that he is such an enigmatic character, but there's no way Miranda wouldn't think about it, and possibly be greatly disturbed by the thought. I would like her to "bounce back" from the realization, though, and continue her own vision with renewed passion.