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[Ieldra]

I'm quoting the fanfic excerpt below because it captures something important IMO in spite of the rough state it is in. And I've boldened a few lines that would make a world of difference were they - or something like them - in ME3. The beautiful thing is that there is evidence for everything jtav refers to in there in ME2:

(1) Miranda believes in "the advancement of the human race" in some form - you hear that in her voice when she explains what Cerberus stands for,
(2) she decries her fathers plans for being egomaniacal,
(3) and by her comments about why people join Cerberus and her appreciation of asari culture proves she's not a xenophobe.

Add that in ME3 she doesn't work for the Illusive Man anymore, and the evidence is pretty solid that Miranda would actually do something like this:

(fanfic excerpt by jtav. One quote level removed for readability)

"I had some free time on my hands while I was waiting for you to come. Between you and Leng, I feel like I’ve ate, slept, and breathed Lazarus for the last three years. Billions of credits and thousands of man-hours for two people. When I started on the project, I thought it was a waste of Cerberus resources. You were—are—extraordinary, but you were still just one person. But suppose we could mass-produce some of your upgrades?"

She gestured at the papers on the desk. "I've been working on some ideas. Not even close to the prototype stage at this point. Mostly just trying to get my thoughts down.”

Matt picked up the nearest sheet. It was covered with cross-sections of various human organs. Eyes, hearts, stomachs, all rendered competently but unremarkably. She’d scribbled various mathematical formulas in the margins, crossing out some and circling others. Miranda's handwriting was cramped and nearly illegible at the best of times, but the technical jargon didn't help. "I don't understand a word of this."

"And I don't understand what you see when you look at a Caravaggio. I suppose that makes us even." She smirked. "But what I did for you can be done for others. You asked me once what Cerberus stood for, and I told you that it was the advancement of the human race. I don't know if the Illusive Man ever believed that, or if it was a lie that he told me to ensure my loyalty, but I still believe. After the war, I’m going to do my best to help humanity, not just a few people with money and power."

Matt watched her. She’d told him that she lacked fire. That was a lie. Her fire was on display before him, and that fire was what drew him back to her again and again. Yes, she was beautiful but so was Aish Ashland or the Consort. Attractive women were everywhere. But passion? That was harder to find. Miranda had devoted her life to an ideal, and she had done it without being twisted into a xenophobe or a monster. Beauty and brains made her appealing. Dedication and drive made her irresistible. Matt had followed her when he’d had nothing else.

Her gaze flickered. "If we even win this war."

"I picked up Dr. Sanders on the way here. Binary Helix, Synthetic Insights, and Kassa Fabrications are all behind us hundred percent.” He took her hands in his. "So I’d say our chances are looking pretty good." Miranda would get a chance to create her better world. He’d see to that.

I would like that ME3 dealt with Miranda and TIM and Miranda's visions of human advancement more in-depth, but in the end it can be done with one or two lines like here. If we get that much, it might just be acceptable.

And jtav, Matt speaks for my Cyrus Shepard in the underlined parts. It is that fire that makes her irresistible. She may not be able to inspire soldiers like Shepard, but I bet she can inspire scientists just as well. Too bad that her "operative" side will be gone in your timeline, but well, leaving something behind is part of character development.

Edit: oops, top of the page. This needs....


----

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. She needs to be present at *spoiler location follows* the Illusive Man's base. Details see here and here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 novembre 2011 - 09:34 .

[flemm]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Hey guys, been a while since i checked these boards. So i'm hearing that us Miri fans are getting screwed over in ME3? How so? I thought Bioware was being secretive about her because she has a big role?

Heh, well, I think we can safely answer "no" to that last part :happy:

As to the "getting screwed" portion of your post, the leaked script makes the affirmative seem all too likely, though we are all hoping for improvement in the final product.

Xilizhra wrote...

With the apparent shattering of Cerberus
as any force for good, I have to wonder how Miranda will define her
terms of aiding humanity... it may well be that her whole life up until
ME2 was a lie, serving a master whose motives were far less admirable
than she thought, and one much closer to her father in character than
she believed. That can't be easy to bounce back from.

Well, I could see it being handled in a number of different ways, but anyway it needs to be handled.

Modifié par flemm, 30 novembre 2011 - 12:52 .

[Xilizhra]

The funny thing is that of those things that would keep me from believing that she was more traumatized than that, her resignation scene is top among them. She might be more resilient than I'd worried judging by that.

[Mathias]

flemm wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Hey guys, been a while since i checked these boards. So i'm hearing that us Miri fans are getting screwed over in ME3? How so? I thought Bioware was being secretive about her because she has a big role?

Heh, well, I think we can safely answer "no" to that last part :happy:

As to the "getting screwed" portion of your post, the leaked script makes the affirmative seem all too likely, though we are all hoping for improvement in the final product.

Aww that's upsetting   Miri was my favorite character from ME2. This seems like a waste of a good character and Yvonne's talent. I'm sure Tali fans will get treated like royality though.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 30 novembre 2011 - 01:54 .

[CrutchCricket]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...
Aww that's upsetting   Miri was my favorite character from ME2. This seems like a waste of a good character and Yvonne's talent. I'm sure Tali fans will get treated like royality though.

Indeed. Sadly big name actors alone do not ensure adequate screen time. Look at Anderson. You get him one of the most badass voices known to man and he's only a cameo? And Keith David is currently more well known than Yvonne.

And honestly, before another moronic fanbase squabble breaks out I think it should be acknowledged that fan belligerence only takes you so far. It was Bioware themselves that chose to favor Tali over others and ME1 characters over ME2. Furthermore it was already stacked against ME2 seeing as how the sole purpose for ME2 characters' existence is cannon fodder for drama in the SM. All this is old news on here.  People just get emotional and forget.

Ieldra (and by extension jtav since the excerpt was used), regarding the highlighted lines, do you see that as Shepard's primary reason for his affections? The "professional" side and the advancement ideal? The text also references passion or "fire". But I don't know if those are necessarily present in Miranda's professional side. I'll want to hear what you think before I elaborate.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
 Furthermore it was already stacked against ME2 seeing as how the sole purpose for ME2 characters' existence is cannon fodder for drama in the SM.

Well, that's a choice, not an absolute. The ME2 characters can be treated as disposable... or not. But treating them as such doesn't justify that decision. Other things might, I suppose, but the decision certainly doesn't justify itself.

Xilizhra wrote...

The funny thing is that of those things
that would keep me from believing that she was more traumatized than
that, her resignation scene is top among them. She might be more
resilient than I'd worried judging by that.

I don't have any concerns about her resilience, given how she's handled the other potentially traumatic stuff in her past. But it would certainly be a big deal, one way or another, for her to see Cerberus take the path it apparently does in ME3. It would mean a lot, though I can imagine a variety of different reactions that would potentially make sense.

Modifié par flemm, 30 novembre 2011 - 02:44 .

[Attila 6]

Ieldra2 please can you tell me where can I read this leaked scripts ? If you willing to show me please send the location to this email address: abalogh66@freemail.hu Thank you

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Well, that's a choice, not an absolute. The ME2 characters can be treated as disposable... or not. But treating them as such doesn't justify that decision. Other things might, I suppose, but the decision certainly doesn't justify itself.

By the player, yes. But that doesn't change the fact that they only were created to keep the ME1 crew alive until ME3 while still having the "everyone can die" scenario. And I didn't claim any justification for the decision. I'm just stating what is.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Ieldra (and by extension jtav since the excerpt was used), regarding the highlighted lines, do you see that as Shepard's primary reason for his affections? The "professional" side and the advancement ideal? The text also references passion or "fire". But I don't know if those are necessarily present in Miranda's professional side. I'll want to hear what you think before I elaborate.

No, the underlined part where her fire is mentioned as making her irresistible, that's interpretation and spoken from my and jtav's Shepards' viewpoint, as I acknowledged in what I wrote below the quote.

The boldened part, where she speaks about her belief in some sort of human advancements, that's something we have evidence for in ME2, as I pointed out at the top of my post, and that's what I think should return.

[jtav]

It's also a bit of meta commentary. Miranda has a fairly well-articulated set of ideals that she speaks about with conviction. That sets her apart and keeps her from being just another Defrosting Ice Queen. I'm not attracted to women as a rule, and even if I were, hot women in videogames practically grow on trees. There's much about her character that I find problematic, but I forgive it for her idealism.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
By the player, yes. But that doesn't change the fact that they only were created to keep the ME1 crew alive until ME3 while still having the "everyone can die" scenario. And I didn't claim any justification for the decision. I'm just stating what is.

It's not really an accurate description, though. For one thing, part of the ME1 crew was involved in the SM. For another, the events of ME2 do contribute to the overall story, whatever the weaknesses of the plot may be. A massive chunk of ME3 is going to depend on ME2 because of Cerberus' involvement (already created in ME1, but not really fleshed out until ME2). 

So, really, there's no reason at all for the ME2-specific characters to be side-lined in ME3, except that this is apparently what Bioware felt like doing. That's doubly true for Miranda because of the Cerberus connection.

It's not our choice, but there's no reason to treat it as if it were somehow inevitable or intrinsic to the storyline. It wasn't, and it isn't.

Modifié par flemm, 30 novembre 2011 - 03:32 .

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
By the player, yes. But that doesn't change the fact that they only were created to keep the ME1 crew alive until ME3 while still having the "everyone can die" scenario. And I didn't claim any justification for the decision. I'm just stating what is.

It's not really an accurate description, though. For one thing, part of the ME1 crew was involved in the SM. For another, the events of ME2 do contribute to the overall story, whatever the weaknesses of the plot may be. A massive chunk of ME3 is going to depend on ME2 because of Cerberus' involvement (already created in ME1, but not really fleshed out until ME2). 

So, really, there's no reason at all for the ME2-specific characters to be side-lined in ME3, except that this is apparently what Bioware felt like doing. That's doubly true for Miranda because of the Cerberus connection.

It's not our choice, but there's no reason to treat it as if it were somehow inevitable or intrinsic to the storyline. It wasn't, and it isn't.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[naledgeborn]

Been a while ladies and gents, any new news or interesting debates circulating?

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
It's not really an accurate description, though. For one thing, part of the ME1 crew was involved in the SM. For another, the events of ME2 do contribute to the overall story, whatever the weaknesses of the plot may be. A massive chunk of ME3 is going to depend on ME2 because of Cerberus' involvement (already created in ME1, but not really fleshed out until ME2). 

So, really, there's no reason at all for the ME2-specific characters to be side-lined in ME3, except that this is apparently what Bioware felt like doing. That's doubly true for Miranda because of the Cerberus connection.

It's not our choice, but there's no reason to treat it as if it were somehow inevitable or intrinsic to the storyline. It wasn't, and it isn't.

Obviously the plot of ME2 can't just be ignored. But that alone says nothing about the characters. I admit I can't explain why Garrus and Tali made squad in ME2 without resorting to "the fans did it" (what I'm trying to say is not the case in ME3 or at least not decisively) but I know for a fact the VS and Liara were kept out for plot armor. Wrex is the only question mark and incidentally the only one whose situation makes sense since he was foreshadowing krogan reformations in the first game (and he's already expendable). Like it or not though ME2's characters were made to be expendable and with the exception of Miranda and Mordin none of them contribute to the plot issues already established.
This fact is not justification for their sidelining in ME3 (especially Miranda and Mordin) but it is fact, and furthermore explanation for why its happening in pragmatic terms- anyone in ME2 can die, Bioware doesn't have the resources to account for every permutation satisfactorily so they blanket-scrap the lot of them.

Ieldra/jtav: I know which parts are game backed and which just come from the fanfic. What I was going to say actually comes down to a matter of interpretation really. But basically you can be completely devoted to an ideal without necessarily being passionate about it. As well I'm not certain I'm digging Shepard's devotion to Miranda being due primarily to her ideals or pursuit of such. But that is your interpretation of the two of them that is consistent with the game but not with my own. So there's not much else I can say about it.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 30 novembre 2011 - 04:16 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
 I know for a fact the VS and Liara
were kept out for plot armor. Wrex is the only question mark and
incidentally the only one whose situation makes sense since he was
foreshadowing krogan reformations in the first game (and he's already
expendable).

So, basically, everyone but Liara and the VS are question marks

Anyway, the issue isn't really whether the characters are expendable in the sense that the game has to work without them. That is actually true of everyone, except Liara, going into ME3. The point is more: "expendability" in the sense that you mean does not, in itself, limit the character's role in the game. What defines the character's role in the game is whether or not the devs feel like giving the character an important role in the game, that is all.

A good example here is Garrus, who has no plot-relevance at all going into ME3, but who has an important role fabricated for him. Which is fine, I might add. There's no reason not to give him something important to do and give his story a cool/awesome ending.

Compare with what we are seeing with Miranda. Even just focusing on the Cerberus story, and leaving out other aspects of the character entirely, Miranda has a built-in major plot hook for ME3. No need to fabricate anything. But that connection isn't exploited at all, and is in fact basically ignored in the leaked script, thereby creating a situation where Miranda seems to end up in limbo. I'm not even sure you could call her story concluded, let alone concluded in a cool/satisfying manner.

So, the whole question of expendability, alive/dead, ME1/ME2... that's all irrelevant really. The only relevant question is: does the character's story end in a cool/satisfying manner, with at least a substantial chunk of the character's story potential having come to fruition? That's so blatantly not true in Miranda's case that I suppose it may have been improved since, out of necessity.

Modifié par flemm, 30 novembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[CrutchCricket]

ME1's expendability isn't treated the same as in ME2. Yes either of the VS candidates can die but they are interchangeable in certain plot-relevant respects (both become Spectres for example) to the point where you can refer to them as one. Wrex is the only one that is similar to an ME2 character in these terms. And that's only one character. Compare that to the 12 of ME2.

As for fabricating their own story arcs, yes that's what would need to be done to make the character more than a cutout. But how much is Bioware really going to put into that individual story line given the scope of the overall story and the limited resources at their disposal? And how willing are they going to be, doing that 12 times?

Furthermore what possible internal criteria would make them choose one ME2 character over another? Why expand Samara's story but not Grunt's or vice versa? Easier to not worry about either of them. But compare it to someone like Garrus, well now you've got the "he was with you from the start" objection. Not a strong one granted but a real one that isn't just based on individual preference.

Now does this excuse characters who are plot relevant, like Miranda? Absolutely not. And given how specific her death conditions are, expendability doesn't even factor into it. But expendability is a very real factor for ME2 characters in general (or with the exception of Miranda if you prefer) even if it's not the decisive factor.

And it's not the only factor. I feel like we're going off the path here. I originally said:

It was Bioware themselves that chose to favor Tali over others and ME1 characters over ME2. Furthermore it was already stacked against ME2 seeing as how the sole purpose for ME2 characters' existence is cannon
fodder for drama in the SM.

So I said Bioware chose ME1 characters over ME2 willingly and chances were already stacked against ME2 characters because of the expendability...

Are we actually disagreeing here, or having another quibble over wording or emphasis?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 30 novembre 2011 - 05:55 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
So I said Bioware chose ME1 characters over ME2 willingly and chances were already stacked against ME2 characters because of the expendability...

Well, I think there a couple of points that need clarification. One is the idea that chances were stacked against ME2 characters, as opposed to ME1 characters, due to expendability. This is simply not a true statement. At most we could say that the chances were stacked against everyone but Liara and the VS, which is a very different thing.

As for Bioware choosing ME1 characters over ME2 characters, well, that may be so, but that's more the beginning of the conversation than the end of it.

For example, what does that mean? Does it mean that no ME2-specific squad member will be recruitable to the squad in ME3? Does it mean that ME1 characters will have their plot-relevance artificially inflated, whereas major plot hooks for ME2 characters will simply be ignored, in order to reduce their role? The first possibility, while arbitrary, makes slightly more sense, for a variety of reasons, than the second point, for which I don't see any justification, either from a story logic or game development perspective.

Modifié par flemm, 30 novembre 2011 - 06:36 .

[Hillbillyshep]

Crap, i just realized something...
Jack´s permanent.
BW has previously only released character-artwork and -renders for permanent squadmates. Excluding promotional LotSB-renders of Liara.
Crap, i´m starting to think that we´ll need a miracle or a HUGE REDESIGN FOR MIRANDA.

[jtav]

Jack is not a squad member. That would actually go a long way towards calming me down. No ME2-exclusive squad members rejoin the squad.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
For example, what does that mean? Does it mean that no ME2-specific squad member will be recruitable to the squad in ME3?

Yeah, apparently that's exactly what it means. Particularly galling if all but one of your favorite characters are ME2-specific. Even more galling if you know what will happen to two of them.

Does it mean that ME1 characters will have their plot-relevance artificially inflated, whereas major plot hooks for ME2 characters will simply be ignored, in order to reduce their role?

That, too. Garrus. Miranda. Just thinking about how Miranda's role - apparently - has been reduced to her personal concerns makes me angry. Even should we get some closure to her Cerberus connection in the final version, that things were ever planned this way is an insult of epic proportions. Reading that old version of the script.....what the hell were they thinking?

Ah sh*t. What the hell was *I* thinking? To actually hope for a character I'm emotionally invested in to not be sidelined - or worse - in a story told through visual media? That has happened about once in 25 years. And to hope for some moral grey in that charater to be retained? That has *never* happened. I really should go back to books and forget about story-based games altogether.

Yeah, I'm feeling cynical today.  That's what thinking of the ME3 team does to me these days. At least I like the main plot.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 novembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[Ieldra]

And to counter the cynicism a little:



Doesn't do anything for me in my current mindset, but I'm feeling somewhat embarrassed to have contributed to the emotional rollercoaster. Sorry about that. I'll try to get better

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 novembre 2011 - 08:06 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Well, I think there a couple of points that need clarification. One is the idea that chances were stacked against ME2 characters, as opposed to ME1 characters, due to expendability. This is simply not a true statement. At most we could say that the chances were stacked against everyone but Liara and the VS, which is a very different thing.

As for Bioware choosing ME1 characters over ME2 characters, well, that may be so, but that's more the beginning of the conversation than the end of it.

For example, what does that mean? Does it mean that no ME2-specific squad member will be recruitable to the squad in ME3? Does it mean that ME1 characters will have their plot-relevance artificially inflated, whereas major plot hooks for ME2 characters will simply be ignored, in order to reduce their role? The first possibility, while arbitrary, makes slightly more sense, for a variety of reasons, than the second point, for which I don't see any justification, either from a story logic or game development perspective.

How is it not true though? If you're willing to accept that second statement that it's stacked against everyone but Liara and the VS, it must mean you believe it's stacked against Tali and Garrus the same way it's stacked against ME2 characters and that is simply not true. The fact that they were in the original and have been here for two games alone is a factor in their favor (how strong it is is open to interpretation).

As for the rest, I don't know what will happen to ME2 characters, if they'll get squad time or not (I still refuse to accept the leak as irrefutable truth). But nothing of what I said guarantees or denies them that. But I do believe it hurts their chances somewhat. And you seem to get hung up a lot on justification or taking what I say as absolute. It isn't. But it isn't an even playing field between ME1 and 2 and I don't think that can be denied.

Man I really didn't want to start this discussion since emotions are clearly rampant. I just wanted to cut off the whole "ooh Tali fans are so favored" nonsense before it started again.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Man I really didn't want to start this discussion since emotions are clearly rampant. I just wanted to cut off the whole "ooh Tali fans are so favored" nonsense before it started again.

I think that Tali isn't favored in the romance department. Characters - with one possible exception - appear to get reasonably equal treatment there.

But the ironic thing is that I haven't seen Tali fans debating her plot relevance much, while we have been doing that all the time and always said it's important for Miranda. And now Tali gets it - which, I should add, is totally appropriate - while Miranda, for whom it would be even more appropriate, may not get it. So, if that leak turns out to be basically what we get, then Tali is indeed favored. 

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
How is it not true though?

From a design standpoint, it is the same. The challenge of integrating the "might be dead" ME1 characters into the game is the same as for the "might be dead" ME2 characters. This is a fact.

The point of view you are presenting amounts to a tautology along these lines: the ME1 characters are favored because they are favored, so it is inevitable that they be favored.

CrutchCricket wrote...
I just wanted to cut off the whole "ooh Tali fans are so favored" nonsense before it started again.

That hasn't been a major feature of the discussion here. For the most part, people have kept it about the game and the characters, rather than other fans. If anything, fans of other characters stopping by to troll has been more common.

However, nothing you've said contradicts the idea that certain characters are favored. Actually, the opposite is true. Pretty much what you've said is: certain characters are favored.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Yeah, apparently that's exactly what it means.

Questions were rhetorical, mostly

One is more important than the other, though. For example, obviously, we are all disappointed that Miranda won't be recruitable to the squad. But having at least one hugely important story arc completely absent from the game because Miranda's activity is restricted to one mission? That's a whole different story.

Modifié par flemm, 30 novembre 2011 - 08:56 .

[naledgeborn]

Reading these last couple of posts along with some disturbing news from the rumor mill reinforces my belief that Mass Effect 3 will be my BioWare swan song.

They just plain suck at this point.
Abandoning KotOR to LA/Obsidian only to pick it up again a decade later... and then destroying Revan.
Abandoning Morrigan (who's fanbase is probably the size half of all of DA's).
And now character assassination/derailment/whateverthehelltheyredoing to Miranda. I can't win with these guys.