82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

naledgeborn wrote...
Reading these last couple of posts along with some disturbing news from the rumor mill reinforces my belief that Mass Effect 3 will be my BioWare swan song.

Could you clarify? What are these disturbing news?

[jtav]

I think he must mean the DA3 mmultiplayer rumors.

[naledgeborn]

MP for Dragon Age 3 (not the BG2 kind). TOR story spoilers. I'm jumping ship after ME3. I feel the direction they're headed in as a developer just isn't for me anymore.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 30 novembre 2011 - 09:04 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
From a design standpoint, it is the same. The challenge of integrating the "might be dead" ME1 characters into the game is the same as for the "might be dead" ME2 characters. This is a fact.

The point of view you are presenting amounts to a tautology along these lines: the ME1 characters are favored because they are favored, so it is inevitable that they be favored.

I don't recall talking about design challenges. I did say doing that 12 times over would be more of a strain then doing it once. And I said there is no real reason to choose one ME2 character over another where as there is a reason to choose an ME1 character over an ME2 given the same level of overall story impact. I also never said expendability is the cause of the favoritism. But it does help it along.

That hasn't been a major feature of the discussion here. For the most part, people have kept it about the game and the characters, rather than other fans. If anything, fans of other characters stopping by to troll has been more common.

However, nothing you've said contradicts the idea that certain characters are favored. Actually, the opposite is true. Pretty much what you've said is: certain characters are favored.

The point was that fans of characters weren't favored, at least not this time around. And like I said I was attempting to quell that notion precisely so trolls wouldn't happen to come by and latch on that. Clearly I didn't take into account that trolls need nothing to latch onto. Also it seems to have backfired somewhat as we're still talking about it...<_<

[Dr. Doctor]

I don't really mind that Miranda isn't going to be a squadmember. As long as I have the abillity to talk to her more than once and that her part in the Cerberus arc gets resolved.

[wright1978]

naledgeborn wrote...

MP for Dragon Age 3 (not the BG2 kind). TOR story spoilers. I'm jumping ship after ME3. I feel the direction they're headed in as a developer just isn't for me anymore.

Well of course DA3 will have some form of Multi-player as wasn't it made mandatory by EA. It'll likely be a war story too though so i'll look at how multiplayer affects ME3 experience before making a call on whether i'll keep following the DA series. How Miranda gets treated will determine if i'll stick on for any further ME games.

[Ieldra]

naledgeborn wrote...
MP for Dragon Age 3 (not the BG2 kind). TOR story spoilers. I'm jumping ship after ME3. I feel the direction they're headed in as a developer just isn't for me anymore.

Ah, the MP dogma strikes again. Hmph *derisive snort*. Well, I don't think MP will destroy ME3, so it might not be a big issue for DA3 either. As long as I can ignore it and still have all options open to me, I'm fine with it.

As for saying you can't win with these people: that may be true, but are there game developers you *can* win with in the characters department? Bioware tends to make very good ones. It's just that they're not so good in continuing their stories beyond one game, because they never let story elements established by one game, of the main plot or of a character, have the high priority they should have when developing a sequel. Take Liara's character assassination between ME1 and ME2 for instance (no matter that I like the result, it was that). Whether that's part of a learning process or just plain disregard of their own creations, I have no idea, but few game developers even attempt to tell a story over more than one game.

What annoys me more is the appalling tendency to let conventional or politically correct characters take first place and change grey characters to remove all controversial elements, but that appears to be particular to the ME team, since I don't see much evidence of that in DA.

Anyway, I didn't touch a Bioware game between KotOR and ME1. Something similar may happen again. No big deal. But first I want to see a satisfying conclusion for the Mass Effect story. Regardless of my trepidation about Miranda, I know I'm going to love the main plot. Not that that will prevent me from writing a big rant if warranted. Heh, I've promised that so many times that I feel motivated to outdo myself should the necessity arise. But I still hope it won't.

----

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure. She needs to be present at *spoiler location follows* the Illusive Man's base. Details see here and here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 novembre 2011 - 09:57 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
 Also it seems to have backfired somewhat as we're still talking about it...<_<

At any rate, other characters are in essence irrelevant. What matters, re: this discussion, is that Miranda's involvement should end up being... well, I was about to say "adequate," but that's really just a sign of how bad Miranda's role in the leaked script is... There's no reason why it shouldn't be awesome.

If it ends up being awesome, then we're good. Other characters only come into it as an inevitable point of comparison. Miranda not being on the squad is not even our main concern at this point. Sure, it'd be great if she were, but at this point we're talking about more basic stuff, like the character's main story arc being resolved and the character not being left in limbo with nothing much to do once her personal issues have been dealt with.

Modifié par flemm, 30 novembre 2011 - 10:17 .

[CrutchCricket]

Hmm... Miranda's character should be awesome... was that ever contested?

Like I said I refuse to see the leak as anything more than a faded and crumpled picture, like a poster of Star Wars that just has a smiley face with a caption reading "Solo goes here" where Han's face should be. My personal disappointment of late is that all the "accepting feedback" hype from two weeks ago just seems like so much fluff and false promise now. Though I am coming to realize that maybe this isn't a bad thing. I mean we're all fairly stable on here but in general fandoms are fickle irrational beasts with the hair-trigger temper of a mob, the fanaticism of religous zealots and the terrifying absence of restraint of the Internet. Basically the quote in my sig. Trying to pander to them might be akin to sticking your head in a bowl of piranhas and attempting to fly a commercial plane.

But we should be getting back to Miranda. Hmm. Has there been any material or discussion regarding her thoughts on the genophage? And expanding on that I wonder what she'd say about Mordin's take on the matter and on species advancement (as expressed by overcoming adversity).

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 30 novembre 2011 - 10:50 .

[flemm]

Well, yeah, there's no sense in trying to make drastic changes now, the game's going to go gold in a couple of months. We don't know how old the leaked stuff is, exactly, but I think sometime mid-summer at the most recent, maybe late spring/early summer if we're lucky.

The stuff we're talking about here is really basic. I can only hope that it is so basic that it has already been dealt with. Realistically, though, it had either already changed prior to the leak, or it isn't going to be significantly different in the final product.

The bright spot is that, structurally speaking, Miranda's appearance could theoretically be awesome if some key additions were made. Nothing really needs to be taken away, or radically altered. Not to say it would be perfect, but the main missing pieces could be covered with an addition or two that would flow very naturally from what is already there. (So much so that, if they are not added, it's going to be really, really irritating.) We'll see.

Modifié par flemm, 30 novembre 2011 - 11:00 .

[Prudii Aden]

Yep, it's still up in the air. Despite the leak. So, it's definately wait and see.

[chessplayer209]

I agree with almost everything on the OP's wishlist, but I strongly disagree with the OP on a few things (WARNING, POSSIBLE SPOILERS!):

jtav wrote...
Miranda Lawson wishlist for ME3:

*No objectifying ass shots. We like that Miranda is sexually experienced, but she is not a sex object.

Miranda's sexuality and appearance is part of her character in the game. I liked that character and want to see it continue in ME3.  Part of why I like her is for her appearance, personality, and general attitudes. All of these things are accentuated and made more interesting (and potentially relevant, plot-wise) by the whole femme-fatale role she has adopted, and I think that this role would be greatly diminished if Bioware scrubbed away any semblence of physical attractiveness from Miranda's character as you seem to want them to do. Part of why she is attractive is her sexuality - and I want that to be part of her character in the game. Don't take it out please Bioware! It makes her character more interesting both from a relationship point of view, and from the perspective of the kind of story-potential she could have (see below). Bioware put down some good groundwork with Miranda's character, and I'd like to see that groundwork expanded upon as I discuss in greater detail below.

*But we do want to see the femme fatale aspects described in the art book. Let her use her sex appeal as a weapon.

I'll agree - this could be an interesting twist. I've always liked to consider this idea - particularly coupled with her general shadyness, affiliation with Cerberus, and moral ambiguity.  The idea that she might just be using her sexuality as a 'weapon' or 'tool' to manipulate Shepard to achieve her own objectives could be a very interesting direction for the story to take - not to mention the potential effects it could have on her future relationship with Shepard.

Perhaps she's a very interesting variety of the classic "snake in the grass," matching her moral ambiguity - manipulating Shepard using her sexual relationship with him to pull the wool over his eyes while she does something he might otherwise never approve of, allow, or condone. Or, perhaps she is doing all that, but for a purpose that she believes is ethically "good," yet questionable to the rest of the crew and to Shepard, but her moral ambiguity and pragmatism allows her to see it as acceptable behavior if it achieves unknown ends she finds desirable. Or, maybe her potential motivations for doing such a thing are unrelated to the game's main plot. Maybe she has purely selfish reasons for potentially manipulating Shepard, and plans to gain personally from doing so. Or, maybe she's going to turn on him, and she's trying to use the sexual relationship with Shepard to acquire the perfect situation she could take advantage of to do this safely.

Most of these ideas could easily play right into the idea of her character being pragmatic, sexually assertive, calculating, mysterious, and morally ambiguous. I like this idea much more than the idea of her being this sort of [spoilers]loving, emotional, teary-eyed-cries-when-she's-alone big-sister type of character Bioware seems to be turning her into.[/spoilers]

(6) She's a woman, not a girl. Her grown-up and balanced personality attracts many fans.

Yeah, I agree with this - to the extent that it was accurate. There were times when she honestly seemed to have a more girl-ish personality than woman-ish, [spoilers]like when she got into that argument with Jack.[/spoilers] That was just annoying to have to deal with, and honestly seemed pretty out of character for her.  She's usually all cold, calculating, and professional - and then all a sudden [spoilers]gets into a fight with another female squadmate like some outraged immature bi*** - and furthermore demands that you agree with her on the issue in order to maintain the relationship, with no regard for the impact on the crew or the mission.[/spoilers].

(7) She's unapologetically sexual - and not presented as a sl*t because of it (forget the ass shots and pay attention to her behavior if you don't believe it). That's refreshing because more conventional stories like to paint a woman who enjoys sex - to say nothing of sex in engine rooms - in a more negative light.

I'll definitely agree with this. It's kinda sad that society is so biased against this type of woman, but oh well. Why society seems to think it's so much better for female characters to be prudes is beyond me :/. Miranda and her story was a refreshing change. Hope to see more of it with ME3.

(8) She's human. For those who find interspecies romance unconvincing, that’s an important aspect if you want to romance her.

I'm going to disagree here. While it's not something I feel strongly about, I just disagree with it because it seems a little prejudice. Who's to say there's anything wrong with interspecies romance? I'm totally ok with it. While I definitely like Miranda, it has more to do with her character, style, and general femme-fatale appearance and attitudes than the simple fact that she's genetically human. Honestly, there are some alien characters that have more interesting personalities/attributes than several of the human characters in the game. For example, I personally enjoyed the story of Morinth and Samara from ME2.

Granted, some alien characters are, by nature perhaps (as in the case of Wrex), automatically less interesting squadmates. Krogans just seem too focused on war/honor, too anti-talking/intellectualism in general to be of any special interest. It's good they are in the game because it adds diversity, which helps to contrast with other types of characters - but they are of secondary interest to me - if that. They just always seem to disapprove of having any kind of extended conversation, unless that conversation is about wars, honor, promotion of their clan/species, etc. They're ok to have in the game, but I am personally much more interested in characters that involve themselves with other ideas and pursuits.

These characters often seem to be human, but often Asari characters also seem potentially interesting. Plus, Asari characters can be beautiful! Not to hate on ugly characters, but a pretty Asari who likes looking out at the stars through windows of a spaceship is a much more interesting squadmate to me than a squadmate resembling a giant toad who only seems concerned with what benefits his own species, creates honor for his clan and himself, etc. That type of character (the general personality) is already in just about any kind of medieval RPG out there in the form of dwarves/orcs, and that's fine - but it's nice to have some other options. But sorry for going a bit off topic there...

Possible endings for Miranda

(1) The Illusive Woman: Miranda takes over what remains of Cerberus and creates humanity's equivalent of the salarian STG from it.
(2) Into the Sunset: Miranda and Shepard lead an expedition into the unknown reaches of the galaxy, never to be seen again in Citadel space.
(3) The Foundation: Miranda inherits her father's fortune and uses it to develop Lazarus technology into something more widely available and develop other human enhancement technologies.

#1 could be interesting.  See above where I discuss your idea of her using her sexuality as a weapon. Perhaps she could manipulate Shepard into helping her accomplish this sort of thing. I don't think we should confine the idea to having the organization be similar to some other already-existing organization. Other options could be explored, to include the possibility of simple personal gain being a motive. Honestly, I think that'd make a more interesting story and twist on her relationship with Shepard, but that's debatable.

#2 might take shape in the form of teasers for future additions to the Mass Effect franchise. I could definitely go for more Mass Effect..

I think #3 in particular is interesting, not so much because of Miranda's involvement so much as that I'd just like to see Mass Effect embrace even more sci-fi themes.  Theoretically, technological advancements related to the Lazarus Project or similar projects sound very interesting. If more involvement with Miranda is desired, perhaps Miranda could become involved with some sort of movement for further genetics science research? This seems like it could be more relevant to her character and potential character development.

Modifié par chessplayer209, 01 décembre 2011 - 12:37 .

[alperez]

@crutchcricket.

Reading between the lines of you last few post (and forgive me if i've misread or misinterpreted things), but you keep asking the question why should one character from me2 be treated differently to another.

Surely the logical response is story relevance.

For most of the me2 crew they play pretty much no significant or potential significant role in the story we're about to see in me3, for others though even a blind man can see they should (the writers i mean).

By not utilising the character's who should play a plot significant role to their fullest what we are or will be in essence getting is an incomplete story, something that considering this is the end not just of the story but a story that's been 3 games in the making is imo unforgivable.

[CrutchCricket]

alperez: I've already accounted for that buddy. Miranda and Mordin, mentioned specifically. Legion would also be one but he's a bit of a special case being a collection of AIs and all. He's probably got backups and even if he doesn't the geth can always give us Legion 2.0.

[alperez]

CrutchCricket

Then i apologise for not fully reading your posts and instead picking up on something you answered yourself already, my bad (well that and my apparently wonky eyesight lol).

[flemm]

Agreed where Miranda and Mordin are concerned. Mordin's situation is a lot more promising in the leak. Different type of character, different requirements for a satisfying appearance. But there we definitely have the type of presence and resolution to his main story arc that I would expect where Miranda is concerned as well.

I'd rather have both of these characters on the squad, but that I can live without. How Miranda's story could be concluded in a satisfying manner is really obvious from the script. It's just a question of whether the resources have been committed to making it happen.

[alperez]

Another thing in relation to Mordin is that the justification for his appearance to be limited had already been set, we knew his age may play a part in any future role since they make such a big deal about it in me2.

So having his character arc be resolved was actually the only real hurdle they needed to cross with Mordin which again makes him different from Miranda. So even though he does have a plot relevance it was imo an unrealistic goal for even his most devoted fans to expect him to be a fulltime squadmember or play a significantly large role.

[Vertigo_1]

flemm wrote...

Agreed where Miranda and Mordin are concerned. Mordin's situation is a lot more promising in the leak. Different type of character, different requirements for a satisfying appearance. But there we definitely have the type of presence and resolution to his main story arc that I would expect where Miranda is concerned as well.

I'd rather have both of these characters on the squad, but that I can live without. How Miranda's story could be concluded in a satisfying manner is really obvious from the script. It's just a question of whether the resources have been committed to making it happen.

Not if he isn't voiced by Beattie!

[flemm]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Not if he isn't voiced by Beattie!

Agreed!

Neither of my favorite characters' voice actors have been confirmed to be returning...

So, you can imagine how thrilled I am about that

[MisterJB]

chessplayer209 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Miranda Lawson wishlist for ME3:

*No objectifying ass shots. We like that Miranda is sexually experienced, but she is not a sex object.

Miranda's sexuality and appearance is part of her character in the game. I liked that character and want to see it continue in ME3.  Part of why I like her is for her appearance, personality, and general attitudes. All of these things are accentuated and made more interesting (and potentially relevant, plot-wise) by the whole femme-fatale role she has adopted, and I think that this role would be greatly diminished if Bioware scrubbed away any semblence of physical attractiveness from Miranda's character as you seem to want them to do.

We do not want Miranda's physical attributes to be negativelly affected just "because" nor do we want Miranda to stop acting in a way that migth befit a femme fatale. However, there are particular shots during the game that were obviously meant for the players to enjoy and nothing else.
To put it quite simple, it's the difference between this:



and this:



The first picture could be interpreted as a portrayal of Miranda's more seductive and even, dare I say, playfull side while the second picture is...pixel porn.
If Miranda adopting that particular position on the table had been a subtle attempt at persuading ManShep to help her relocate her sister, which would fit a femme fatale, there would be much less complaints about it.

More to come...

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 décembre 2011 - 01:30 .

[Dr. Doctor]

On the subject of Lazarus it just occured to me that there's something symbolic about having a human who was designed to embody genetic perfection give life to another through technology. Sort of a representation of how life is moving ever closer to technological singularity. To me there's incredible potential to explore the subject of transhumanism through the Lazarus Project.

On the subject of Mordin, I don't want him to die he's the Doc Brown to Shepard's Marty McFly

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

On the subject of Lazarus it just occured to me that there's something symbolic about having a human who was designed to embody genetic perfection give life to another through technology.

Agreed. I suspect it was mostly accidental, but the connection between Lazarus and Miranda's own unique origin is really interesting. While, again, I doubt it was introduced with this in mind, the whole infertility issue actually adds another layer to this.

So, I guess the writers keep screwing up and making Miranda more interesting than they intended

jreezy wrote...

Who's the other VA you're talking about.

Strahovski hasn't been announced as returning either, though in her case we've nothing comparable to Beattie's email to suggest otherwise.

The working theory is that Strahovski will be back in the studio after Chuck wraps, so I guess we'll see.

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 01:36 .

[ubermensch007]

Ieldra2 wrote...

A final comment:
I am not sure of the spirit you wrote your post in. Your frequent attributions of "pathological" "sociopathic", "mediocre", "inept" and "childish" to Miranda make me suspect I have wasted my time answering a very long troll post. But we're starved for discussion so I've given you the benefit of the doubt. For now.

Now leldra2, when have I ever played the part of a troll? (Rhetorical Question  btw ) I'm glad to see that I have at least earned that benefit of the doubt.As for the spirit of my post: There was no malice aforthought.Just honesty and objective observation made as best I know how... There was a bit more that I had to say, that could have gone a long way to clear up any misunderstandings.But i felt that the post was long enough as is.Without adding on an appendix explaining where I was coming from.

I ended up coming to this conclusion: It might be really cool in ME3 if Miranda Lawson is sort of a Lone She-Wolf like character.Akin to what Major Motoko Kusanagi did in Ghost in the Shell: Solid State Society.After the aftermath of 2ndGig.

I like Miranda.I like her alot... Sometimes I'm not sure if I prefer her more as a friend to Shepard or a lover.

[alperez]

flemm wrote...

Agreed. I suspect it was mostly accidental, but the connection between Lazarus and Miranda's own unique origin is really interesting. While, again, I doubt it was introduced with this in mind, the whole infertility issue actually adds another layer to this.

Funny enough its things like this that make me despair about the quality of writing in mass effect and are part of why i almost continually say that its badly written and getting more so by the minute.

When rather than use plot relevant characters in their plot relevant roles for whatever reasons is added to using characters in plot relevant roles even though it goes against their character arc and makes them ooc it screams bad writing to me.

When you then stumble by accident on something that if explored properly would actually create an interesting pov or add something to both the story and the characters themselves, but ignore it either because you've missed it yourself or it would require a little bit of effort to flesh it out and instead you've already decided to limit that characters role anyway, it again screams bad writing.

Although given what was said in one of the latest interviews, planning things out so you utilise characters correctly doesn't seem to be something they considered anyway.