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[flemm]

alperez wrote...

Although given what was said in one of the latest interviews, planning things out so you utilise characters correctly doesn't seem to be something they considered anyway.

Yeah, I believe I know the Mac Walters comment you are referring to, which basically amounted to: "the Suicide Mission was a bad idea."

Hooboy....

[alperez]

Reading it was a serious head banging against the desk moment for me, if the lead writer who already had to implement characters who could die into a storyline couldn't forsee the difficulties an everyone can die SM might bring, then expecting them to notice little nuances may have been a bar we set too high.

[flemm]

Nuance hahahahahaha

We'll leave nuance to jtav in her fanfic, I'm just hoping the basic story beats are covered in ME3 so I don't have to have a rant-writing contest with Ieldra in March.

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[MisterJB]

chessplayer209 wrote...

 Maybe she has purely selfish reasons for potentially manipulating Shepard, and plans to gain personally from doing so.

This would be OOC and, quite frankly, would probrably make me disown Bioware.
Miranda has been portrayed as a quite selfless and idealistic person who's willing to do very morally ambiguous things for the greater good. I could see her manipulating Shepard for that good, but not for personal gain.

Most of these ideas could easily play right into the idea of her character being pragmatic, sexually assertive, calculating, mysterious, and morally ambiguous. I like this idea much more than the idea of her being this sort of [spoilers]loving, emotional, teary-eyed-cries-when-she's-alone big-sister type of character Bioware seems to be turning her into.

You don't need spoilers tags for something that happened in ME2.Unless these are conclusions you drew from the leak script?
Anyway, why are the two muttually exclusive? Miranda can be pragmatic enough to not risk helping the Normandy crew on the Collector Base because it migth jeopardize the mission and still be quite loving and emotional when it comes to the people she truly cares about like Oriana or romanced Shepard.

Yeah, I agree with this - to the extent that it was accurate. There were times when she honestly seemed to have a more girl-ish personality than woman-ish, [spoilers]like when she got into that argument with Jack.[/spoilers] That was just annoying to have to deal with, and honestly seemed pretty out of character for her.  She's usually all cold, calculating, and professional - and then all a suddengets into a fight with another female squadmate like some outraged immature bi*** - and furthermore demands that you agree with her on the issue in order to maintain the relationship, with no regard for the impact on the crew or the mission.

Definitively not Miranda's best moment. However, it's understandable. She and Jack has been at each other's throats from day one, Zero was the one who barged into her office. Basically, Jack started it but I expected Miranda to be the bigger woman.

and furthermore demands that you agree with her on the issue in order to maintain the relationship, with no regard for the impact on the crew or the mission.

This is just untrue, though. If you side against Miranda, her first tought is towards how Jack  might negativelly impact the mission "She can't be trusted, Shepard. She's unstable. She's jeopardizing the mission."
That she no longer whishes to discuss anything personal with Shepard afterwards is understandable (He betrayed her) but she stills remains civil and professional on debriefings and the field.

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...

That she no longer whishes to discuss anything personal with Shepard afterwards is understandable (He betrayed her) but she stills remains civil and professional on debriefings and the field.

A disagreement is hardly a betrayal. Jack was actually right. Maybe not in starting ****, but in what she said. And the best Miranda can do is deny it was Cerberus and continue goading Jack with "Clearly you were a mistake"? What's that about? I can understand why she'd want to deny it but she handled that situation poorly and if you step in and tell her that  she just ends the relationship regardless of how far it's progressed? And especially after all you've done for Oriana? In universe, that's just petty. And out, it's cheap drama and choice mechanics.

[alperez]

flemm wrote...

Nuance hahahahahaha

We'll leave nuance to jtav in her fanfic, I'm just hoping the basic story beats are covered in ME3 so I don't have to have a rant-writing contest with Ieldra in March.

Nuance is my word of the day, while technically on guard duty i spent most of the day arguing with another soldier about why cable tv drama is in a lot of cases better than network tv drama, eventually coming to the realisation that in most network tv drama they don't understand why nuance is much more powerful than simply using big glaring signs to explain characters motivations or intentions.

Btw that rant-writing contest won't be an exclusive club will it, if things go badly i fear we may all end up joining lol.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
A disagreement is hardly a betrayal. Jack was actually right. Maybe not in starting ****, but in what she said. And the best Miranda can do is deny it was Cerberus and continue goading Jack with "Clearly you were a mistake"? What's that about? I can understand why she'd want to deny it but she handled that situation poorly and if you step in and tell her that  she just ends the relationship regardless of how far it's progressed? And especially after all you've done for Oriana? In universe, that's just petty. And out, it's cheap drama and choice mechanics.

Starting sh*t makes a big difference. Doesn't really matter if the other person has a point. If somone walks up to you and threatens you, demanding you say "X" or apologise for "Y," that is not a good time to cave in, and no one with any backbone would do so.

Also, you can get Miranda's loyalty back, so whether you consider it from a game mechanic perspective or from an in-story perspective, the loyalty shift isn't necessarily definitive. But the choice you make there should have consequences, and it does. It's a bit artifical, but that's just the nature of the game mechanics.

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 02:28 .

[CrutchCricket]

Who said anything about caving? I wouldn't expect Miranda to immediately acquiesce once the biotics fly. But you gotta wonder why the biotics started flying at all. Either Jack just finished blowing up the source of her nightmares or she's been chilling for some time after having done so. I don't think she went into Miranda's office fists flying. Probably still angry no doubt but not murderously so. Recall her line as you walk in: "Touch me and I'll smear the wall with you b!tch!" Clearly Miranda was already either losing control or purposefully goading Jack (neither look good but to differing extents). And then when you are there she throws the mistake line. That was inexcusable.

Oh and I'm not talking loyalty, I'm talking romance.

[MisterJB]

[quote]CrutchCricket wrote...
A disagreement is hardly a betrayal.[/quote]
And what happened was hardly just a disagreement.

[quote]Jack was actually right.
[/quote]
Not completely. First she blamed the entirety of Cerberus for something a single cell did. Then, she failed to acknowledge that what happened to her had not even been approved by TIM. Finally, she tried to gloat to Miranda who had not even been involved in what happened in Pragia in the sligthest.


[quote]And the best Miranda can do is deny it was Cerberus[/quote]
Well, it wasn't. Not really (see what I did there?)
I'm sure she could have come up with stronger arguments; she did for Shepard; but I'm also quite sure those would have been wasted on Jack. Remember her earliers line about not caring who really was responsible for the Teltin facility? She saw Cerberus' logo on the walls and that was the end of discussion.
 
[quote]and continue goading Jack with "Clearly you were a mistake"? What's that about?
[/quote]
She lost her temper. Miranda can be mean when she is angry.

[quote] I can understand why she'd want to deny it but she handled that situation poorly and if you step in and tell her that  she just ends the relationship regardless of how far it's progressed?
[/quote]
That's not what Shepard said. He told Miranda to leave Jack alone when she had been the one who started the argument in the first place. 


[quote]And especially after all you've done for Oriana? In universe, that's just petty. And out, it's cheap drama and choice mechanics.[/quote]
If Shepard explains his reasoning, he can regain her loyalty. However, he did side against his gilfriend in an argument not started by her, where her entire value system was being called into question and the other side was threatening to kill her. The trust is gone.

[/quote]

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 décembre 2011 - 02:40 .

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Recall her line as you walk in: "Touch me and I'll smear the wall with you b!tch!" Clearly Miranda was already either losing control or purposefully goading Jack (neither look good but to differing extents).

Miranda could have just said: "Are you going to leave my office, or do I have to escort you out?"

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 décembre 2011 - 02:46 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
But you gotta wonder why the biotics started flying at all. Either Jack just finished blowing up the source of her nightmares or she's been chilling for some time after having done so. I don't think she went into Miranda's office fists flying. Probably still angry no doubt but not murderously so. Recall her line as you walk in: "Touch me and I'll smear the wall with you b!tch!" Clearly Miranda was already either losing control or purposefully goading Jack (neither look good but to differing extents). And then when you are there she throws the mistake line. That was inexcusable.

Actually, I think very little of what you say there can be inferred. As far as we know, it could easily have been Jack that threatened Miranda first. We can't be sure, but it seems at least as likely. So, it's not clear at all that Miranda was ether losing control or goading Jack.

More likely, she asked Jack to leave and Jack refused (more or less belligerently). Miranda's "mistake" line comes after Jack's smack talk, so neither party is really to be commended here. You're assuming Miranda has already done some provoking, but we don't see that, and the more likely scenario is the opposite one.

Probably what happened is that Jack demanded an apology, Miranda (quite rightly) refused to give it under duress and asked Jack to leave, at which point Jack refused, so Miranda stood up to kick her out. (Doesn't mean Jack is 100% in the wrong here, far from it, but neither is Miranda.)

As for the romance, not standing up for someone in a situation like that, when s/he is being threatened with violence, could very easily end a romance in real life. I mean, LoL! Of course it would. How could you trust someone again after that? That's a betrayal, plain and simple.

You're not going to get/stay romantically involved with a person who can't even be bothered to stand up for you when someone is threatening to smear you to the wall.

Seriously, LMAO

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 03:17 .

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
And what happened was hardly just a disagreement.

We'll have to disagree on that. See what I did there?

Not completely. First she blamed the entirety of Cerberus for something a single cell did. Then, she failed to acknowledge that what happened to her had not even been approved by TIM. Finally, she tried to gloat to Miranda who had not even been involved in what happened in Pragia in the sligthest.

Does Jack strike you as the type of person to mind the details when she's pissed? Details like independent cells and all that? Regarding TIM, that was already dealt with on Pragia "We don't know what they weren't telling the Illusive Man". Miranda represents Cerberus. Who else was Jack going to talk to? I also see no evidence of "gloating" or goading for that matter.

Well, it wasn't. Not really (see what I did there?)
I'm sure she could have come up with stronger arguments; she did for Shepard; but I'm also quite sure those would have been wasted on Jack. Remember her earliers line about not caring who really was responsible for the Teltin facility? She saw Cerberus' logo on the walls and that was the end of discussion.

I'll give you this. Maybe she tried before but she wasn't getting through.
 

She lost her temper. Miranda can be mean when she is angry.

Not a smart decision. Miranda the good and competent leader would realize this. Maybe not in that moment but after. Which makes what happens next all the more inexcusable.

That's not what Shepard said. He told Miranda to leave Jack alone when
she had been the one who started the argument in the first place.

He also said "The people I recruit are my business". OK the leave Jack alone line was kind of dumb. And even the first line is kind of dumb considering Jack's recruitment was TIM's decision.  Doesn't matter. Because Miranda doesn't react much to this line anyway. She just says Jack is unstable. It's only the next line that really pisses her off- "Maybe you should look at your own attitude". Which is prefectly reasonable given the mistake line.

If Shepard explains his reasoning, he can regain her loyalty. However, he did side against his gilfriend in an argument not started by her, where her entire value system was being called into question and the other side was threatening to kill her. The trust is gone.

Oh noes! How dare my significant other express a differing opinion from me? Why this is surely grounds for termination! And where exactly is her entire value system being question anyway? If Miranda really believes it wasn't Cerberus what's her problem with declaring the Teltin facility wrong? It doesn't even have to be to Jack (since the point was brought up that she can't appear weak). She can stonewall Jack all she wants but with Shepard or on her own if she's thinking "Cerberus doesn't do that, I don't do that" where's the issue? It's not a matter of trust. The paragon/renegade "make-up" lines afterwards even drive this home (and you yourself referenced it). Even in the worst case where Miranda thinks "No we're Cerberus and we can do what we please" and would never admit Teltin was wrong, once Shepard reveals he was just blowing smoke she has absolutely no excuse to keep a grudge, especially given the potential history between them now. I don't see how anyone could concievably act like this. It's just bad writing.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 01 décembre 2011 - 03:18 .

[Dr. Doctor]

flemm wrote...

Yeah, I believe I know the Mac Walters comment you are referring to, which basically amounted to: "the Suicide Mission was a bad idea."

The SM is a reverse Kobayashi Maru; the always winnable scenario. When the advertising and the story hype the mission as walking into the depths of hell itself and I can get through it without losing anyone on the first playthrough there's something wrong. It takes more effort to lose someone during the SM than it does to get through it with no losses.

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Actually, I think very little of what you say there can be inferred. As far as we know, it could easily have been Jack that threatened Miranda first. We can't be sure, but it seems at least as likely. So, it's not clear at all that Miranda was ether losing control or goading Jack.

More likely, she asked Jack to leave and Jack refused (more or less belligerently). Miranda's "mistake" line comes after Jack's smack talk, so neither party is really to be commended here. You're assuming Miranda has already done some provoking, but we don't see that, and the more likely scenario is the opposite one.

Probably what happened is that Jack demanded an apology, Miranda (quite rightly) refused to give it under duress and asked Jack to leave, at which point Jack refused, so Miranda stood up to kick her out. (Doesn't mean Jack is 100% in the wrong here, far from it, but neither is Miranda.)

As for the romance, not standing up for someone in a situation like that, when s/he is being threatened with violence, could very easily end a romance in real life. I mean, LoL! Of course it would. How could you trust someone again after that? That's a betrayal, plain and simple.

You're not going to get/stay romantically involved with a person who can't even be bothered to stand up for you when someone is threatening to smear you to the wall.

Seriously, LMAO

No, I can't infer that she was goading. But she wasn't in control. What I'm finding rather difficult to understand is how you got "not standing up for her against violence" from "leave Jack alone, she's fine worry about yourself". Do you seriously believe that Shepard would've stood by while Jack smeared her to the wall? Or that he even gave that indication? He was rendering judgement as a CO and I hardly think he's the kind of CO that lets his subordinates have at it.

And again paragon/renegade lines:
Shepard: It was all an act.
Miranda: Oh I guess that makes sense. We're still done though. Even though you rescued my sister and I talked about love earlier, we're breaking up.

Yeah... you see that all the time...<_<

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 01 décembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
 Do you seriously believe that Shepard would've stood by while Jack smeared her to the wall? Or that he even gave that indication?

That's not really the point, though. The point is more that Shepard doesn't recognize that Jack is at least as much in the wrong as Miranda in a situation where Jack is obviously at least as much in the wrong as Miranda, and is even threatening to kill her.

If s/he's acting purely as a CO, then s/he's doing a poor job of it. Arguably, that's true either way in the default options, which is what the persuade options are for (Shepard can only get a truly "good" outcome if s/he has enough charisma, leadership ability, whatever).

It doesn't help that Shepard acts in a cowardly manner around Jack from her RM mission onward, either letting him/herself be intimidated by her, or lying to her, rather than standing up to her. So, the decision here cannot be considered in isolation, and is more like the last straw where Miranda is concerned. The "it was just an act" business is little more than a lame excuse, really.

Not all of the dialog here is really all that convincing, on that point I concur. But as the overall situation unfolds, it's definitely the kind of decision that could permanently damage a relationship.

jreezy wrote...

Happened to me the first time too. I didn't lose a single squadmember.

One of the odd things about the SM is that only 1.5 squad members, as I recall, die in the average play-through. But it can be anyone. So it's this massive design headache with little reward as far as actual variety is concerned.

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 03:41 .

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Does Jack strike you as the type of person to mind the details when she's pissed?

That proves the irrelevance of any intelligent arguments Miranda migth have come up with.
 

  Regarding TIM, that was already dealt with on Pragia "We don't know what they weren't telling the Illusive Man".

Which should have quelled her hate towards Cerberus. It certainly removed any righteousness she might have had.

Miranda represents Cerberus. Who else was Jack going to talk to?

Jacob, Joker, Chakwas, Gardner, Kelly, Donnely, Gaby, etc.
That she chose the one who seemed most loyal is telling.

I also see no evidence of "gloating" or goading for that matter.

What else do you think she wanted if not to gloat or pick a fight? Convince Miranda of the error of her ways and guide her towards a better path? 

 

Not a smart decision. Miranda the good and competent leader would realize this. Maybe not in that moment but after. Which makes what happens next all the more inexcusable.

I don't think it whatever Miranda said can affect the mission. It's not like Jack can despise her any more than she already did.

 Doesn't matter. Because Miranda doesn't react much to this line anyway. She just says Jack is unstable. It's only the next line that really pisses her off- "Maybe you should look at your own attitude". Which is prefectly reasonable given the mistake line.

It's not reasonable because Shepard confines the entirety of the blame to Miranda when Jack's attitude was being just as bad if not worse.

Oh noes! How dare my significant other express a differing opinion from me?

There are manny opportunities in-game for Shepard to present an opinion that differs from Miranda's, most involve Cerberus.
However, one very pertinent is how Shepard can accuse Miranda of tooking a baby from her father.
Miranda refutes this but it didn't stop the romance from happening. Why? Because, despite what he might think of what she did, Shepard still chose to help her.

In the argument with Jack, Shepard stood against Miranda. He betrayed her.

And where exactly is her entire value system being question anyway?

Jack-o-vision: Miranda believes in what Cerberus stands for. Cerberus kidnapped and tortured me. Therefore, Miranda agrees with the kidnap and torture of children.

If Miranda really believes it wasn't Cerberus what's her problem with declaring the Teltin facility wrong?

She does so if Shepard asks. She might have had Jack asked nicely. There's also the possiblity that she did but Jack couldn't accept the disassociation between Teltin and Cerberus that Miranda tried to make clear. 
 

She can stonewall Jack all she wants but with Shepard or on her own if she's thinking "Cerberus doesn't do that, I don't do that where's the issue? It's not a matter of trust. The paragon/renegade "make-up" lines afterwards even drive this home (and you yourself referenced it). Even in the worst case where Miranda thinks "No we're Cerberus and we can do what we please" and would never admit Teltin was wrong once Shepard reveals he was just blowing smoke she has absolutely no excuse to keep a grudge, especially given the potential history between them now. I don't see how anyone could concievably act like this. It's just bad writing.

It's not about keeping a grudge. Miranda forgives Shepard if he explains himself however, it's obvious that Miranda chooses the people she trusts carefully and she didn't go into a relatioship with Shepard without quite a bit of reasoning first.
Smoke or not, Shepard chose Jack over Miranda, how can she trust him to not do that again?

[spirosz]

I believe the best way to look at the Jack/Miranda fight is that they both didn't express themselves well, neither is more right than the other, but both have their reasons. Even though I agree with Jack more, I understand Miranda's side, so trying to argue which side is right or wrong won't go anywhere, at least in my opinion. It comes down to how you view the their position.

Modifié par spiros9110, 01 décembre 2011 - 04:09 .

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...

Which should have quelled her hate towards Cerberus. It certainly removed any righteousness she might have had.

Or she could've denied TIM his plausible deniability and blamed Cerberus still. Which is what happened.

Jacob, Joker, Chakwas, Gardner, Kelly, Donnely, Gaby, etc.
That she chose the one who seemed most loyal is telling.

Yes it is telling. Telling that she can pick out who represents Cerberus (i.e. the entity she wants to have words with) from a simple gun for hire who doesn't know what he wants, a pilot and doctor personally loyal to Shepard or just a pair of lowly engineers.

What else do you think she wanted if not to gloat or pick a fight? Convince Miranda of the error of her ways and guide her towards a better path?

"The cheerleader won't admit what Cerberus did to me was wrong". Sounds like trying to convince Miranda of her errors to me (or at least of Cerberus'). It wasn't about gloating. It was about closure. Why do we all want Miranda to face her father? Same thing only the man directly responsible for Teltin isn't available. Miranda is the next best thing in Jack's eyes (wrong or not)

I don't think it whatever Miranda said can affect the mission. It's not like Jack can despise her any more than she already did.

Indeed. The logical course of action during a mission is to try and push the nigh-psychopath to try and murder you. It's not like she'll succeed or kill your CO or herself. Oh and possibly cause a hull breach (Miranda's office has windows).  And even if she did that can't affect the mission right?

It's not reasonable because Shepard confines the entirety of the blame to Miranda when Jack's attitude was being just as bad if not worse.

Does he? The entirety of blame you say? Her attitude in calling Jack a mistake comprises the entirety of her blame? Or is check your attitude code for "You're responsible for every single bad thing Cerberus has ever done, including this thing."? That's a lot to pack in one sentence.

There are manny opportunities in-game for Shepard to present an opinion that differs from Miranda's, most involve Cerberus.
However, one very pertinent is how Shepard can accuse Miranda of tooking a baby from her father.
Miranda refutes this but it didn't stop the romance from happening. Why? Because, despite what he might think of what she did, Shepard still chose to help her.

In the argument with Jack, Shepard stood against Miranda. He betrayed her.

Oh so in the future "betraying someone" means not doing what they want you do right? It's OK to call them a baby stealer as long as you go along with them but heaven forbid you tell them to stow the attitude at the same time as you stop them from... what exactly?

Jack-o-vision: Miranda believes in what Cerberus stands for. Cerberus kidnapped and tortured me. Therefore, Miranda agrees with the kidnap and torture of children.

Does she? And what exactly does Cerberus stand for? Last I checked we were fairly unclear about that. Seems ol' TIM wasn't telling us the whole story. Maybe our ideals of human advancement might actually differ from his. Maybe we found that out during the course of the game. Crazy talk right?

She does so if Shepard asks. She might have had Jack asked nicely. There's also the possiblity that she did but Jack couldn't accept the disassociation between Teltin and Cerberus that Miranda tried to make clear.

Well this just undermines your last point. Clearly her whole morality isn't put on the line since Teltin is not her doing or in line with what she believes. Jack's actions are Jack's fault. Miranda's actions are her own.

It's not about keeping a grudge. Miranda forgives Shepard if he explains himself however, it's obvious that Miranda chooses the people she trusts carefully and she didn't go into a relatioship with Shepard without quite a bit of reasoning first.
Smoke or not, Shepard chose Jack over Miranda, how can she trust him to not do that again?

Forgives what? A decision she should've implemented herself? She's the cool and smart superspy leader who can read people like that and likely manipulate them too and she doesn't understand the concept of telling someone what they want to hear? Please. I can buy that she let her emotions cloud her judgement during the encounter. Anything after that is just ridiculous.
And let's please get away from "chose x over y". This isn't ME1 and it's "who's it gonna be Shep?". This is an altercation aboard a ship that needed to be resolved as fast as possible. If Shepard doesn't have the force of personality to tell them both to shut it, he has to tell one. There's nothing personal involved.

Edit: By the way we've been at this a while. I kind of want somebody to come in here and tell one of us to shut it. If they pick you and tell me to shut it, I'll be sure to get mad and never trust them again.
(I'm really not trying to be a dick here but do you see how ridiculous that sounds?)

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 01 décembre 2011 - 04:48 .

[Dr. Doctor]

I wanted a persuade like this:

Miranda: Shouldn't you be talking to your friend Jack?

Shepard: Enough. Irregardless of there anything between us you're my XO, and I expect you to behave in a manner befitting an officer.

Miranda: Then why did you undermine my authority?

Shepard: I did it because last time I checked The Illusive Man considers Jack to be an important to this mission. It was more expedient to tell her that she was right and have her leave than it would be to potentially lose her as an asset. I agree that she shouldn't have gone into your office, but your reaction didn't help matters at all.

Miranda: But that wasn't one of ours the logs clearly stated that the Illusive Man would have shut down the cell if he had known what was being done there!

Shepard: I understand that, Jack had her little victory over Cerberus today and decided that she just had to go rub it in your face because she knew that you would react, and I intend to remind her that behavior like that will not be tolerated on this ship.

Miranda: Good to know. If you excuse me Commander, I have reports to attend to.

Shepard: Do you remember when you told me that we shouldn't let emotions get in the way of the mission? Because I'm trying to do it, and I can't always guarantee that you'll always like what results from it, but I'm willing to do whatever is needed to get through this alive, understand?

Miranda: I do.

(Shepard leaves)

[spirosz]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

I wanted a persuade like this:

Miranda: Shouldn't you be talking to your friend Jack?

Shepard: Enough. Irregardless of there anything between us you're my XO, and I expect you to behave in a manner befitting an officer.

Miranda: Then why did you undermine my authority?

Shepard: I did it because last time I checked The Illusive Man considers Jack to be an important to this mission. It was more expedient to tell her that she was right and have her leave than it would be to potentially lose her as an asset. I agree that she shouldn't have gone into your office, but your reaction didn't help matters at all.

Miranda: But that wasn't one of ours the logs clearly stated that the Illusive Man would have shut down the cell if he had known what was being done there!

Shepard: I understand that, Jack had her little victory over Cerberus today and decided that she just had to go rub it in your face because she knew that you would react, and I intend to remind her that behavior like that will not be tolerated on this ship.

Miranda: Good to know. If you excuse me Commander, I have reports to attend to.

Shepard: Do you remember when you told me that we shouldn't let emotions get in the way of the mission? Because I'm trying to do it, and I can't always guarantee that you'll always like what results from it, but I'm willing to do whatever is needed to get through this alive, understand?

Miranda: I do.

(Shepard leaves)

On the bolded part, I will never believe that, but otherwise I liked that scenario. 

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
"The cheerleader won't admit what Cerberus did to me was wrong". Sounds like trying to convince Miranda of her errors to me (or at least of Cerberus'). It wasn't about gloating. It was about closure. Why do we all want Miranda to face her father? Same thing only the man directly responsible for Teltin isn't available. Miranda is the next best thing in Jack's eyes (wrong or not)

Closure? From Miranda who had nothing to do with Teltin when the Normandy has a direct connection to TIM's office?
Please, it was about Jack showying the "cheerleader" that she was right all along.

 Indeed. The logical course of action during a mission is to try and push the nigh-psychopath to try and murder you. It's not like she'll succeed or kill your CO or herself. Oh and possibly cause a hull breach (Miranda's office has windows).  And even if she did that can't affect the mission right?

Is it better to let the nigh-psychopath think she can run around and do whatever she pleases?

Does he? The entirety of blame you say? Her attitude in calling Jack a mistake comprises the entirety of her blame? Or is check your attitude code for "You're responsible for every single bad thing Cerberus has ever done, including this thing."? That's a lot to pack in one sentence.

Does it matter? Shepard claims that Jack is doing just fine and that Miranda is the one who should watch her attitude.
There are not many different ways of reading that and all of them are bad.

Oh so in the future "betraying someone" means not doing what they want you do right? It's OK to call them a baby stealer as long as you go along with them but heaven forbid you tell them to stow the attitude at the same time as you stop them from... what exactly?

Disaproving of what Miranda did 19 years ago but still help her shows that Shepard trusts her judgement.
By picking a side between two rival groups, you are betraying the group you stood against which is exactly what happens if you pick sides in the Miranda/Jack confrontation.
If Shepard had an ongoing relationships with one of the characters, this is even more poignant.

Does she? And what exactly does Cerberus stand for? Last I checked we were fairly unclear about that. Seems ol' TIM wasn't telling us the whole story. Maybe our ideals of human advancement might actually differ from his. Maybe we found that out during the course of the game. Crazy talk right?

Your point being? Are you suggesting that TIM and Miranda's ideal could have differed regarding Pragia?
The videologs confirmed what Miranda already believed. Cerberus didn't know exactly what was going on in there.

Well this just undermines your last point. Clearly her whole morality isn't put on the line since Teltin is not her doing or in line with what she believes. Jack's actions are Jack's fault. Miranda's actions are her own.

Except that Jack acts as if Teltin was something Miranda would aprove of.

Forgives what? A decision she should've implemented herself? She's the cool and smart superspy leader who can read people like that and likely manipulate them too and she doesn't understand the concept of telling someone what they want to hear? Please. I can buy that she let her emotions cloud her judgement during the encounter. Anything after that is just ridiculous.

It's because she can understand that concept that you are able to regain her loyalty. Shepard made that decision for the benefit of the mission. She still respects his leadership.
That won't suddenly erase the fact that he humilliated her in front of Jack who had picked the fight in the first place. Is she supposed to suddenly forget that?
Miranda remaining loyal to Shepard is her acting rationally. Not being able to love him again is her emotional side speaking.

And let's please get away from "chose x over y". This isn't ME1 and it's "who's it gonna be Shep?". This is an altercation aboard a ship that needed to be resolved as fast as possible. If Shepard doesn't have the force of personality to tell them both to shut it, he has to tell one. There's nothing personal involved.

You can choose if your Shepard sees it that way or not but it's clear that it couldn't have been more personal for the two women involved.
Teltin, Cerberus, life threats.

By the way we've been at this a while. I kind of want somebody to come in here and tell one of us to shut it. If they pick you and tell me to shut it, I'll be sure to get mad and never trust them again.
(I'm really not trying to be a dick here but do you see how ridiculous that sounds?)

There is nothing compareable between our debate and their altercation.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 décembre 2011 - 05:41 .

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Hmm... Miranda's character should be awesome... was that ever contested?

Only by Bioware, apparently.

But we should be getting back to Miranda. Hmm. Has there been any material or discussion regarding her thoughts on the genophage? And expanding on that I wonder what she'd say about Mordin's take on the matter and on species advancement (as expressed by overcoming adversity).

Nothing at all in-game, if I recall things correctly. Nonetheless, I think there can be no doubt she approves of the genophage in the same sense that Mordin does, as a necessary evil. I also cannot see her arguing for a genophage cure, though she likes to be prepared for all eventualities so she'd possibly keep Maelon's data - in a very, very safe place.

She'd also see through Mordin's flawed logic in an instant. While the premise is basically correct, the way he uses it to contrast gifted or stolen technology with technology developed on your own poses several problems. First, there is no state of being with no limitations, which means that the fact that one intelligent species continues to develop technology while another stagnates has more to do with the drive to overcome adversities in a certain way than with their mere presence. Losing that drive is certainly possible, and technology may pave the way to such decadence, but that's just as likely with technology developed on your own. 

Second, you cannot even start a prospective analysis of the effects of a technology on your culture unless you know what it does and how, what resources it needs to function etc. etc.. So a general "hands-off" policy with regard to alien technology you know nothing of is not supported by the premise. 

In the end, all that remains of Mordin's line of reasoning is the problem of "arming cavemen with nukes". MIranda is a careful planner. Faced with unknown technology, I can see her implementing security measures on a level that may seem paranoid to others, but at the same time she'd not back down from the challenge of trying to understand it. While she'd certainly see the value of technology developed on your own, and would absolutely say that humanity should, in preference, develop its own tools, she wouldn't buy into the doctrine that using acquired technology is generally inadvisable, and even less would she allow humanity to be left behind by the other species because of such a doctrine.