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[Ieldra]

Edited to include the obligatory top-of-the-page picture:

Badass Miranda...

chessplayer209 wrote...

(8)She's human. For those who find interspecies romance unconvincing, that’s an important aspect if you want to romance her.

I'm going to disagree here. While it's not something I feel strongly about, I just disagree with it because it seems a little prejudice. Who's to say there's anything wrong with interspecies romance?

I say so. It has nothing to do with prejudice, it's more about plausibility, and it's also not exactly about inter-species romance (as in love relationship) as about interspecies sexual attraction, which plainly shouldn't exist except as a fetish. As I said somewhere else, it's not that I need brain bleach for interspecies sex, I need a universe editor. For me it is purely a worldbuilding issue. A species from a different star system with no common ancestry with humans, and still similar enough to humans that humans are attracted to them as a rule, that just.....does not exist. 

I'm well aware that these are concerns of a minority, but I've found enough people who agree with me to include the fact that Miranda is human as a factor why people prefer her to someone like, say, Tali as an LI. Not a decisive one, no, but still, if you like both characters, that Miranda is human might make the difference. Also note that you can appreciate a non-human as a character and be best friends with him or her, and still find the idea of  romancing that character implausible for the aforementioned reasons.  

I believe others have already addressed your other concerns.

Possible endings for Miranda

(1) The Illusive Woman: Miranda takes over what remains of Cerberus and creates humanity's equivalent of the salarian STG from it.
(2) Into the Sunset: Miranda and Shepard lead an expedition into the unknown reaches of the galaxy, never to be seen again in Citadel space.
(3) The Foundation: Miranda inherits her father's fortune and uses it to develop Lazarus technology into something more widely available and develop other human enhancement technologies.

#1 could be interesting.  See above where I discuss your idea of her using her sexuality as a weapon. Perhaps she could manipulate Shepard into helping her accomplish this sort of thing. I don't think we should confine the idea to having the organization be similar to some other already-existing organization. Other options could be explored, to include the possibility of simple personal gain being a motive. Honestly, I think that'd make a more interesting story and twist on her relationship with Shepard, but that's debatable.

#2 might take shape in the form of teasers for future additions to the Mass Effect franchise. I could definitely go for more Mass Effect..

I think #3 in particular is interesting, not so much because of Miranda's involvement so much as that I'd just like to see Mass Effect embrace even more sci-fi themes.  Theoretically, technological advancements related to the Lazarus Project or similar projects sound very interesting. If more involvement with Miranda is desired, perhaps Miranda could become involved with some sort of movement for further genetics science research? This seems like it could be more relevant to her character and potential character development.

As someone else has pointed out, Miranda working purely for personal gain would be out of character. Recall how she decries her father's plans as egomaniacal and contrasts Cerberus who unlike her father, don't do what they do for selfish reasons (her words). Miranda may possibly be misguided (ME3 might shed light on that) but she's an idealist at heart. The main difference between the "Illusive Woman" scenario and the "Foundation" scenario is that the former emphasizes her role as an operative and keeps more of her pragmatic nature intact, while the latter emphasizes her role as a competent project leader in R&D. The "Into the Sunset" ending is basically not meant to imply anything. It's just for those who feel Miranda and Shepard should leave Citadel Civilization behind, for various reasons. Quite a few people said that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 décembre 2011 - 10:52 .

[lawp79]

Hey fellow Miranda fans, I havent been on here for about 6 months for those that may possibly remember me *waves*.

Anyhoo I have heard about the dreaded leak though unfortunately or fortunately depending almost all (other than the vids) of the big story reveal has been taken down so I can only find snippets. Anyways I dont mind spoilers at all tbh just wondered if any of you guys have read it and know anything regarding miranda? I understand if you dont want to post spoilers so feel free to message me

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
On the subject of Lazarus it just occured to me that there's something symbolic about having a human who was designed to embody genetic perfection give life to another through technology. Sort of a representation of how life is moving ever closer to technological singularity. To me there's incredible potential to explore the subject of transhumanism through the Lazarus Project.

Absolutely. It becomes even more symbolic if you bring Miranda's infertility in. Of course, if Miranda can bring a human back to life through technology it should be child's play to circumvent her infertility by technology.

Though as a warning: ME3 appears to feature specific interpretations of transhumanism and technological singularities. We'll see how that will turn out. *remains skeptical*

[Ieldra]

lawp79 wrote...
Hey fellow Miranda fans, I havent been on here for about 6 months for those that may possibly remember me *waves*.

Anyhoo I have heard about the dreaded leak though unfortunately or fortunately depending almost all (other than the vids) of the big story reveal has been taken down so I can only find snippets. Anyways I dont mind spoilers at all tbh just wondered if any of you guys have read it and know anything regarding miranda? I understand if you dont want to post spoilers so feel free to message me

I recall you, lawp79. Welcome back

I'll give you this link to the Miranda topic in the ME3 spoiler group. Obviously, this links to spoilers. There is some good stuff and potential for more. Point (5) is where the bad stuff is. What we think needs to be done about it I've summarized here. It's quite possible that this *has* been done since the leaked stuff is rather incomplete and a few months old, but the absence of any material relating to the "inexcusable omissions" has made being a Miranda fan an emotional rollercoaster for the last few weeks. 

[lawp79]

Hi Ieldra, I certainly remember you mostly for your amazing Miranda knowledge, once again you come through

After my first read through (of which there will be more) I am not sure on my feelings all in all, I have been burnt once with ME2 treatment of Ashley and I have a real fear that my favourite ME2 character maybe heading the same way, granted she already has a larger part than Ash did in the second game but still Miranda as a well written character (imo) deserves more than she is getting thus far.

Modifié par lawp79, 01 décembre 2011 - 10:27 .

[jtav]

Next installment of Shadow War is up:

Domestic Bliss

Matt and Miranda get a chance to be normal. Or, jtav does a romance scene.

One more installment to go. It's going to take longer. The last two weeks have been exhilarating, but also punishing. And the finale is also longer and more structurally complex.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Badass Miranda...

Awesome. Miranda needs to show up at *spoiler location* wearing that

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Next installment of Shadow War is up:

Domestic Bliss

Matt and Miranda get a chance to be normal. Or, jtav does a romance scene.

One more installment to go. It's going to take longer. The last two weeks have been exhilarating, but also punishing. And the finale is also longer and more structurally complex.

Quite a bit different from your usual style, but they've definitely earned it. The uncertainty about a possible future together gives this a very realistic touch while still being quite romantic. I think you faded to black too early though.

BTW, again, Matt speaks for Cyrus:

"I don't want normal. I want the woman who's planning to mass-produce Lazarus."

(before anyone asks, this is a fanfic scenario - nothing we know even remotely suggests that could be what she's going to do after the war. But I wouldn't mind something like that).

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
Closure? From Miranda who had nothing to do with Teltin when the Normandy has a direct connection to TIM's office?
Please, it was about Jack showying the "cheerleader" that she was right all along.

Or did she ask for access to talk to TIM and Miranda refused? Can you disprove that?

Is it better to let the nigh-psychopath think she can run around and do whatever she pleases?

No, if you can't handle it you call somebody who can. Or if you really just can't stand it, you placate the nigh-psychopath for the moment and arrange for them to be drugged and shoved out an airlock at your earliest convenience. You certainly don't stoke her rage and throw a tantrum when things don't go your way.

Does it matter? Shepard claims that Jack is doing just fine and that Miranda is the one who should watch her attitude.
There are not many different ways of reading that and all of them are bad.

Maybe, but none of them lead to  "boo hoo Shepard doesn't love me anymore"

Disaproving of what Miranda did 19 years ago but still help her shows that Shepard trusts her judgement.
By picking a side between two rival groups, you are betraying the group you stood against which is exactly what happens if you pick sides in the Miranda/Jack confrontation.
If Shepard had an ongoing relationships with one of the characters, this is even more poignant.

She's lost her temper, why would you trust her judgement?  And what sides? Christ, at no point does Shepard say "She's right, you're wrong." The "Jack is fine" line is a direct response to "she's unsable". Translation: "She's acting up."- "No you're acting up, shut it". I really wish people would stop drawing useless lines in the sand.

Your point being? Are you suggesting that TIM and Miranda's ideal could have differed regarding Pragia?
The videologs confirmed what Miranda already believed. Cerberus didn't know exactly what was going on in there.

Yes! Since subtlety and sarcasm aren't getting the point across YES! "We don't what they weren't telling the Ilusive Man"- very plausible in general and very plausible from the characters' point of view. Miranda might've shut Teltin down immediately if she got a whiff of what really went on there but there is no evidence that TIM would've. And since she doesn't bother clarifying this, Jack isn't going to pick it up on her own.

Except that Jack acts as if Teltin was something Miranda would aprove of.

Miranda has a chance to prove her wrong. She doesn't take it. And I'm not talking apologist bullsh!t that would weaken her. She has detailed files that could show her being elsewhere and having no knowledge of Teltin at the time. Jack still doesn't believe her then, fine. Now Jack's even more irrational and Shepard should see that and act accordingly. If he doesn't that's bad writing which incidentally is what I've been saying all along.

It's because she can understand that concept that you are able to regain her loyalty. Shepard made that decision for the benefit of the mission. She still respects his leadership.
That won't suddenly erase the fact that he humilliated her in front of Jack who had picked the fight in the first place. Is she supposed to suddenly forget that?
Miranda remaining loyal to Shepard is her acting rationally. Not being able to love him again is her emotional side speaking.

What humiliaton? "You're acting up, shut it"? There is absolutely no reason to take it that way because there is no personal attack against her. Jack is striking out at the representation of Cerberus. Shepard's putting down an argument. But even if I humor you, if that was the best pragmatic decision at the time, yes. Miranda the pragmatist should've seen it herself, even without the paragon/renegade lines and she should stop holding a grudge like she's just been rejected at the prom.

You can choose if your Shepard sees it that way or not but it's clear that it couldn't have been more personal for the two women involved.
Teltin, Cerberus, life threats.

Personal for Jack, nothing more. Which makes telling her to shut it the worst decision, a decision forced on us by bad writing and a sh!t morality counting system. Really I might be more willing to overlook this issue if it wasn't so damn hard to avoid it.

There is nothing compareable between our debate and their altercation.

No there are quite a few parallels between them with one side refusing to admit any wrong and the other perhaps being to belligerent about it. All that's needed is for one of us to get personal. Which I trust we needn't take that far for the comparison to work. The fact of the matter is Miranda has no justification for continuing to act the way she does if things don't go the way she wants regarding her relationship with Shepard especially given what he's done for her already and at what stage the relationship is at. Can we just conclude the choice is dumb and poorly implemented for the sake of cheap drama and move on?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 01 décembre 2011 - 02:05 .

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Just found this image on my tumblr and I laughed so hard I cried.

[Dr. Doctor]

I'm not so sure that humanity is ready for the widespread use of Lazarus tech. Humanity has gone from a level of civilization similar to our own to a space-faring civilization in the span of about thirty years. The Alliance is more of a unified space program than an actual government, the majority of humanity is no better off than they were in this day and age.

This is why I agree that a group like Cerberus needs to exist. Human advancement doesn't have to mean that our civilization has to turn into the Imperium of Man it means that as a whole we still have major societal, technological, economic, and political problems that need to be tackled. Introducing functional immortality at this stage might have unforseen consequences.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra: I don't know is there really no state without limitations? I think we can conceptualize of one. What about Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen? He's a Physical God, it's not strictly tech, but here's an individual who can do just about anything he wants (and is also tangled up in causality but I think we should leave that for the moment) and what does he do? Nothing but what other people want him to do. Because his condition was accidental he may have experienced some intial wonder and exploration (walking across the surface of the sun for example) but any personal drive he has quickly evaporates. We can expand that concept to an entire race. Whether any race can get there with technology alone is a different question. And of course whether that technology is your own or not makes no difference to this problem.
Otherwise does Mordin have a hands-off policy towards alien tech? I thought his thing was just no cavemen with nukes, the krogan weren't ready to be given the tech. The true geth are the ones that don't want dependence on foreign tech and framed in terms of dependence their view has merit.

[flemm]

spiros9110 wrote...
I believe the best way to look at the
Jack/Miranda fight is that they both didn't express themselves well,
neither is more right than the other, but both have their reasons.

Agreed.

CrutchCricket wrote...
 Can we just conclude the choice is dumb and poorly implemented for the sake of cheap drama and move on?

There's really no reason to arrive at that conclusion. Which isn't to say that the dialog is perfect, or that the way loyalty and romance work in these games isn't rather.... well, "gamey" and therefore artificial. Sure, it is, but that's not necessarily a bad thing (it's a game, it's bound to be gamey).

Implementation might not be perfect, but the situation is fairly complex, and neither character can be said to be 100% right or 100% wrong. That's not really a sign of horrible implementation.

CrutchCricket wrote...
She has detailed files that could show her being elsewhere and having no knowledge of Teltin at the time. Jack still doesn't believe her then, fine.

This would have been ridiculous. For one thing, Jack doesn't care whether Miranda was personally there. That is not the issue from her point of view. Second, there's no reason at all why Miranda would allow herself to be cowed or intimidated in that situation. "No, leave." is absolutely the appropriate response. Of course, Jack also has very good reasons for her attitude.

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 02:48 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...

There's really no reason to arrive at that conclusion. Which isn't to say that the dialog is perfect, or that the way loyalty and romance work in these games isn't rather.... well, "gamey" and therefore artificial. Sure, it is, but that's not necessarily a bad thing (it's a game, it's bound to be gamey).

Implementation might not be perfect, but the situation is fairly complex, and neither character can be said to be 100% right or 100% wrong. That's not really a sign of horrible implementation.

Sure it is. If they really wanted to force you to choose Jack or Miranda unless you're awesome enough to take a third option, all they had to do to make it not suck (well one option anyway) is up the stakes of each side. Look at the Tali-Legion conflict or the cut Mordin-Grunt one. Both were about more than a personal issue (Jack) or boo hoo my feelings got hurt (Miranda). The Tali-Legion conflict was about the security of their respective species. In that case, choosing one over the other really would've meant burning a bridge behind you, especially with Tali's romance.
My guess is they thought up Tali-Legion and Mordin-Grunt first, decided to cut one later on and rushed in Miranda-Jack to compensate. And I'm sorry but they did a pisspoor job of it.

This would have been ridiculous. For one thing, Jack doesn't care whether Miranda was personally there. That is not the issue from her point of view. Second, there's no reason at all why Miranda would allow herself to be cowed or intimidated in that situation. "No, leave" is absolutely the appropriate response. Of course, Jack also has very good reasons for her attitude.

Agreed Jack doesn't care about Miranda (which strengthens a point I made earlier about this not being a personal attack against her). Secondly I'm not sure why you see any attempt to reason with Jack as being cowed or intimidated. The low chance of success in this area has nothing to do with this. I would never expect Miranda to apologize for anything especially in these conditions but if the most efficient way to calm the psycho down is show her some proof of Cerberus's distance (something which would also help Miranda herself retain her loyalty) why is this so undesirable?

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
 Look at the Tali-Legion conflict or the cut Mordin-Grunt one. Both were about more than a personal issue (Jack) or boo hoo my feelings got hurt (Miranda).

Well, I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree again (sorry), because the Jack/Miranda conflict is not just about personal issues. It's about the nature of Cerberus as an organisation: what Miranda believes it to be, and what Jack believes it to be.

It's in that sense that Miranda is "wrong": Cerberus is actually much closer to Jack's view then her own. This is also the result of a creative choice on the part of the writers, of course, and it's one of the reasons why Miranda's story arc in ME3 must include some sort of reckoning where Cerberus is concerned.

Her belief in the organisation's goals is a key part of the character, and finding out she has been wrong (apparently all along) about what TIM had in mind for Cerberus would provoke a lot of soul-searching and a really strong reaction of some kind: either the desire to bring down the organisation, or the desire to redeem it by wresting it from TIM.

So, it's not just personal for Miranda. (Or really for Jack, because of what Cerberus represents in her mind.) Miranda may turn out to be wrong about Cerberus, but she believes she's right, i.e. that Teltin is repulsive, but not really what the organisation stands for. So, by siding with Jack there, you're rejecting her beliefs and ideals.

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 03:36 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Well, I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree again (sorry), because the Jack/Miranda conflict is not just about personal issues. It's about the nature of Cerberus as an organisation: what Miranda believes it to be, and what Jack believes it to be.

It's in that sense that Miranda is "wrong": Cerberus is actually much closer to Jack's view then her own. This is also the result of a creative choice on the part of the writers, of course, and it's one of the reasons why Miranda's story arc in ME3 must include some sort of reckoning where Cerberus is concerned.

Her belief in the organisation's goals is a key part of the character, and finding out she has been wrong (apparently all along) about what TIM had in mind for Cerberus would provoke a lot of soul-searching and a really strong reaction of some kind: either the desire to bring down the organisation, or the desire to redeem it by wresting it from TIM.

So, it's not just personal for Miranda. (Or really for Jack, because of what Cerberus represents in her mind.)

You can choose to interpret it that way from the audience perspective (and it's a very valid interpretation I can agree with) but that's not what's going on for the characters. Jack isn't out to redeem Miranda or just make a case that Cerberus may not be all happiness and chocolate. It's about as personal as it gets for her.
And Jack really isn't the best candidate to carry this message either. She makes the most sense out of the characters we have, but frankly the VS would've done a much better job of conveying that (pity they weren't available).
In any case if this encounter is meant to make Miranda seriously question her ties to Cerberus the relationship block makes even less sense. Really if Bioware just released a few lines of code that patched the game so it didn't block the relationship if you sided against her (provided you could make it up to her later), I would not have a problem.

[jtav]

I think Miranda-Jack was probably the first confrontation they came up with. Unfortunately, I think there first concern was having a catfight. In ME, mixed gender or male-male fights are about issues. Female-female fights are more petty.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
It's about as personal as it gets for her.

Granted, but that's just a function of how close she is to the larger issue, and that doesn't mean that the conflict is limited to the personal. With Miranda, it's explicitly not: "That wasn't Cerberus, not really," is one of the many lines in ME2 that indicate exactly where Miranda stands on a variety of moral/ethical questions, and with regard to Cerberus itself.

So, while there may have been a "catfight" element to the confrontation, it's definitely not limited to that, especially considering the fact that the issue involved is really the core issue that the whole game is built around (Cerberus).

Having the romance depend on the outcome of this confrontation increases the stakes for the player, which isn't a poor design choice, at least not in the abstract (though YMMV).

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 04:22 .

[alperez]

I think from Jack's side there is also a personal dislike/jealousy element towards Miranda personally that also plays a part. The whole cerberus cheerleader element is as much a reason why the confrontation goes how it does from Jack's perspective as her feelings regarding

[CrutchCricket]

Hmm. Maybe. But I see that as playing more of a part in her actions not her motivations.

[wright1978]

flemm wrote...

Granted, but that's just a function of how close she is to the larger issue, and that doesn't mean that the conflict is limited to the personal. With Miranda, it's explicitly not: "That wasn't Cerberus, not really," is one of the many lines in ME2 that indicate exactly where Miranda stands on a variety of moral/ethical questions, and with regard to Cerberus itself.

So, while there may have been a "catfight" element to the confrontation, it's definitely not limited to that, especially considering the fact that the issue involved is really the core issue that the whole game is built around (Cerberus).

Having the romance depend on the outcome of this confrontation increases the stakes for the player, which isn't a poor design choice, at least not in the abstract (though YMMV).

I personally much preferred Miranda-Jack confrontation to Tali/Legion one as i very much felt it natural culmination of their mutual antipathy for eachother as well as divisive issue of Cerberus that had built over the game. Also think having the romance depend on the outcome is perfectly reasonable. I've yet to ever meet anyone who would accept their potential other half publically siding with someone they detest.

[Ieldra]

ubermensch007 wrote...
I ended up coming to this conclusion: It might be really cool in ME3 if Miranda Lawson is sort of a Lone She-Wolf like character.Akin to what Major Motoko Kusanagi did in Ghost in the Shell: Solid State Society.After the aftermath of 2ndGig.

I like Miranda.I like her alot... Sometimes I'm not sure if I prefer her more as a friend to Shepard or a lover.

I don't know that episode, but I agree Miranda as a free agent is an idea I find appealing. She is one or the other - or both, in some way - for any one of my Shepards.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 décembre 2011 - 05:16 .

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Ieldra: I don't know is there really no state without limitations? I think we can conceptualize of one. What about Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen? He's a Physical God, it's not strictly tech, but here's an individual who can do just about anything he wants (and is also tangled up in causality but I think we should leave that for the moment) and what does he do? Nothing but what other people want him to do. Because his condition was accidental he may have experienced some intial wonder and exploration (walking across the surface of the sun for example) but any personal drive he has quickly evaporates. We can expand that concept to an entire race. Whether any race can get there with technology alone is a different question. And of course whether that technology is your own or not makes no difference to this problem.
Otherwise does Mordin have a hands-off policy towards alien tech? I thought his thing was just no cavemen with nukes, the krogan weren't ready to be given the tech. The true geth are the ones that don't want dependence on foreign tech and framed in terms of dependence their view has merit.

This Dr. Manhattan is unknown to me. And anyway, what I wanted to say is that I have trouble imagining a state of being where we can't improve any more. I mean, imagining it for real without resorting to mystical concepts.

I don't exactly recall what Mordin said about the Collectors, only that I didn't agree with most of it apart from the problem of "arming cavemen with nukes", which might have been said in a different context.

As for the geth, the problem of dependence on foreign technology has merit insofar as you need to understand and produce the technology you use yourself, even if the knowledge how to build it originally came from somewhere else. If you do, then nothing is different from a technology you developed yourself. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 décembre 2011 - 05:29 .

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

I think Miranda-Jack was probably the first confrontation they came up with. Unfortunately, I think there first concern was having a catfight. In ME, mixed gender or male-male fights are about issues. Female-female fights are more petty.

Jacob/Thane was pretty petty.

I don't exactly recall what Mordin said about the Collectors, only that I didn't agree with most of it apart from the problem of "arming cavemen with nukes", which might have been said in a different context.

Basically that they were totally mindless slaves that were more like husks, really.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 décembre 2011 - 05:34 .

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't exactly recall what Mordin said about the Collectors, only that I didn't agree with most of it apart from the problem of "arming cavemen with nukes", which might have been said in a different context.

Basically that they were totally mindless slaves that were more like husks, really.

Hmm...I'd have to agree with that. Wonder what I got mixed up there.