82210 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

There was a Jacob/Thane fight? Cut maybe?

Ieldra: Watchmen is a graphic novel by Alan Moore, some say the best graphic novel. I don't know about that but it is pretty awesome. There was also a film made of it a few years ago. I'd recommend either. Alan Moore also wrote V for Vendetta if you're familiar with that.
Back on track, I'm thinking of Sufficiently Advanced Aliens now. The trope refers to something else but I'm looking at the words "sufficiently advanced" and thinking of a state where further advancement of technology is possible but not necessary. I think that might qualify towards what we're saying.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Ieldra: Watchmen is a graphic novel by Alan Moore, some say the best graphic novel. I don't know about that but it is pretty awesome. There was also a film made of it a few years ago. I'd recommend either. Alan Moore also wrote V for Vendetta if you're familiar with that.

Thanks for the info. I know Vendetta. I'll have a look into Watchmen if I get the opportunity.

Back on track, I'm thinking of Sufficiently Advanced Aliens now. The trope refers to something else but I'm looking at the words "sufficiently advanced" and thinking of a state where further advancement of technology is possible but not necessary. I think that might qualify towards what we're saying.

The problem with that is that necessity is always in the minds of people. It's rarely objective. Do we really need to fly? Which is why I said that the drive to improve is rather more important than any outward limitation. And since it is unlikely that we'll ever overcome all objective limitations, what remains to determine our further development is the drive to improve.

[Prudii Aden]

The Jacob/Thane bit I think they're referring to is post Thane's recruitment mission. I wouldn't call it a fight either - more like a snarkfest.

[jtav]

I hate to do this because I should be able to make these decisions myself, but I have a question for those following Shadow War:

Do you have any strong feelings about the inclusion of children? They would be confined to the epilogue, created via the same process that created Miranda. If I went this path, though, something painful and quite possibly OTT will happen first. PM me if you must know exactly what. The other option is completely ignoring her infertility.

[MisterJB]

jtav wrote...

Next installment of Shadow War is up:

Domestic Bliss

Matt and Miranda get a chance to be normal. Or, jtav does a romance scene.

One more installment to go. It's going to take longer. The last two weeks have been exhilarating, but also punishing. And the finale is also longer and more structurally complex.

While we're on the topic of domestic bliss:



Author: http://psychicsocial.deviantart.com/
CruthCricket: I'll answer soon.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 décembre 2011 - 06:52 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I hate to do this because I should be able to make these decisions myself, but I have a question for those following Shadow War:

Do you have any strong feelings about the inclusion of children? They would be confined to the epilogue, created via the same process that created Miranda. If I went this path, though, something painful and quite possibly OTT will happen first. PM me if you must know exactly what. The other option is completely ignoring her infertility.

As you would expect, I like the idea of Miranda circumventing her infertility that way very much, and as long as children are confined to the epilogue, it's very much ok. For a final judgment I'd have to know about the painful/OTT element. PM me on our existing "channel".

[naledgeborn]

@ JB's pix, Good! Good!. 

@ jtav, it's your fixfic. So fix it.

[CrutchCricket]

Oh the assassin-can't-trust-him thing? I didn't even bat an eye at that. I see why he would make that objection. Duly noted. And ignored.

Ieldra: I see what you're saying. There's two factors: limitations and the need to surpass them and the desire to do so. The desire can run out before the limits do for whatever reason and the desire is more important (after all even when no limit has been overcome one can still just lie there and take it). I think Mordin just overlooked/ understated this, rather than being wrong altogether. However a state of no limitations is still theoretically possible.

MisterJB: Getting a little tired of arguing this. But if you want to keep going, I'll reply.

[Mathias]

Given the fact that Cerberus is one of the main focuses of Mass Effect 3, you'd think that Miranda would have a MUCH larger role than what she has in the leaked script. This does not sound like good writing.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 01 décembre 2011 - 08:21 .

[Ieldra]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...
Given the fact that Cerberus is one of the main focuses of Mass Effect 3, you'd think that Miranda would have a MUCH larger role than what she has in the leaked script. This seems like faulty writing.

^This. So much. It is such a damned waste. I'll wait with accusations of bad story design until the game is out, but it seems pretty obvious that the ME team doesn't care about the continuity of characters' stories as they should, or they'd never have allowed this to be in the plan in the first place.

It is so damned obvious. As soon as Cerberus was announced as a major enemy in ME3, I counted it as almost certain that Miranda would have a major plot impact. *shakes head* The story screams to be written. Argh. I'm getting angry again. Perhaps I'd better stop.

*need Miranda picture*

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 décembre 2011 - 08:26 .

[jtav]

As I tried to say on TCR, just because BW created her doesn't mean they can't screw her up later.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
It is such a damned waste. I'll wait with accusations of bad story design until the game is out, but it seems pretty obvious that the ME team doesn't care about the continuity of characters' stories as they should, or they'd never have allowed this to be in the plan in the first place.

It is so damned obvious. As soon as Cerberus was announced as a major enemy in ME3, I counted it as almost certain that Miranda would have a major plot impact. *shakes head* The story screams to be written. Argh. I'm getting angry again. Perhaps I'd better stop.

I'm not even sure it's accurate to say that the story is badly designed, it's actually built reasonably well for Miranda to have the type of involvement you'd expect in the Cerberus story, it just... doesn't happen. That's more negligence than anything, if it remains that way.

One could literally have Miranda appear in one additional mission, plus the endgame (where she seems to appear at least briefly anyway), and you'd have a much better conclusion to her story. Perhaps not ideal, but decent anyway.

I'll wait and see what the final version is, but this would be an inexcusable omission, especially since it leaves the character in limbo. If she were left with some other purpose, I might not agree with the choice, but it would at least make sense from a narrative standpoint.

In the current script, the character just gets dropped.

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 08:51 .

[wright1978]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Given the fact that Cerberus is one of the main focuses of Mass Effect 3, you'd think that Miranda would have a MUCH larger role than what she has in the leaked script. This does not sound like good writing.

Yep, MUCH larger. I'm now in that resigned state of mind where i really just want March to arrive so i can end the false hope i'm entertaining that they haven't done what it seems they've done.

[CrutchCricket]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Given the fact that Cerberus is one of the main focuses of Mass Effect 3, you'd think that Miranda would have a MUCH larger role than what she has in the leaked script. This does not sound like good writing.

Nah.  I wouldn't think that at all. I would think "Oh an old unfinished version. They haven't gotten around to filling in the details of my favorite character yet. This isn't even worth looking at." Then I'd go on my merry way, possibly to acquire cake.

Let's not restart the gloom, shall we? More pics! Bring forth the fanfics! I'll even go back to the Miranda-Jack fight if it means staving off the snowballing pessimism.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 01 décembre 2011 - 08:59 .

[jtav]

I think they're shunting her to the side because they REALLY don't want to deal with the implications of her as a Cerberus officer for twenty years. It's stupid, but ME is now a very black and white world. All the good people we served with weren't "real" Cerberus. Except Miranda. They want Miranda to be a good guy but she rose high in an organization that's now pure evil. Bring up her past in a more than cursory way and she'll have to justify herself.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
 Bring up her past in a more than cursory way and she'll have to justify herself.

Which is exactly what should happen, of course.

You may be right as to why they are skirting the issue. It is a topic I will address in one of my rants in March, should the need arise

Not sure it's going to be skirted completely, because of the fact that *spoiler character* is now working for Cerberus and for whatever reason Miranda is now referred to as *spoiler* Cerberus' former 2IC , which would just be an odd thing to bring up otherwise.

But my concern at this point would be more that the writers might try to do away with the Cerberus connection in the conversation with *spoiler character*, and leave Miranda hanging at that point.

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 09:10 .

[Yezdigerd]

I must say I took for granted that Miranda would have big part to play in ME3. She was the writer insert from the beginning to end of ME2. She was practically unkillable. She seems to as popular as any other character if not more so.

So why sideline her? Did Strahovski try to cash in or something?

[flemm]

Yezdigerd wrote...
 Did Strahovski try to cash in or something?

Hard to speculate on anything behind the scenes, but it would surprise me. That said, Yvonne hasn't been confirmed to be returning, so until that happens, I guess we can't rule anything out, including other scenarios that might have prevented her from being involved.

[jtav]

If it was a time/money issue, they should have recast her. I'd prefer the original VA but she's ultimately replaceable if necessity dictates. I'm here for the character, not the actress, as much as I enjoyed this performance.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

If it was a time/money issue, they should have recast her. I'd prefer the original VA but she's ultimately replaceable if necessity dictates. I'm here for the character, not the actress, as much as I enjoyed this performance.

I guess money may have played a role, but maybe not in the sense that there was any disagreement.

Miranda's situation is probably unique, from a game development perspective, in that her VA is likely a lot more expensive than the VAs for the other "might be dead" characters. So, it probably starts as a budget issue: better to spend the big money on characters that everyone is going to see and who will anchor the main story of the game (like Miranda in ME2).

This is partly why hearing Mac Walters lament the existence of the SM makes me cringe, by the way: it may hurt Miranda more than anyone, due to the character's VA.

For "might be dead" characters with relatively inexpensive VAs, you're not cutting into the budget all that much if you have them record a lot of dialog. So, giving Miranda a big role in the game may have always been problematic from that point of view.

The fact that her role in the leaked script feels unfinished and a bit non-committal in certain respects may, I suppose, be a function of a "wait and see" approach, where they were keeping their options open.

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 09:34 .

[Creedio]

That's the problem with famous VAs. Strahovski is probably pretty busy and expensive. And recast her dunno... but I guess most of the fans wouldn't be satisfied with a recasted Miranda.

Modifié par Creedio, 01 décembre 2011 - 09:34 .

[flemm]

Creedio wrote...

That's the problem with famous VA's. Strahovski is probably pretty busy and expensive. And recast her dunno... but I guess most of the fans wouldn't be satisfied with a recasted Miranda.

It's a problem, no doubt. I don't personally disagree with jtav, but the reality is that a lot of people would probably be upset at the change. It must be said, as well, that it would be doubly wierd with Miranda, since Strahovski is the voice and face model for the character.

We don't have numbers (at least I don't), so it's hard to say how big of a deal this might actually be, from a budget standpoint. Possibly pretty big, I suppose.

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 09:40 .

[Creedio]

flemm wrote...

Creedio wrote...

That's the problem with famous VA's. Strahovski is probably pretty busy and expensive. And recast her dunno... but I guess most of the fans wouldn't be satisfied with a recasted Miranda.

It's a problem, no doubt. I don't personally disagree with jtav, but the reality is that a lot of people would probably be upset at the change. It must be said, as well, that it would be doubly wierd with Miranda, since Strahovski is the voice and face model for the character.

True... ah man, poor Miranda, I would like to see more of her in ME3. I really hope they manage that somehow.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I think they're shunting her to the side because they REALLY don't want to deal with the implications of her as a Cerberus officer for twenty years. It's stupid, but ME is now a very black and white world. All the good people we served with weren't "real" Cerberus. Except Miranda. They want Miranda to be a good guy but she rose high in an organization that's now pure evil. Bring up her past in a more than cursory way and she'll have to justify herself.

Why did they retroactively promote her to second-in-command then? That only exacerbates the problem.

Apart from that, they may *really* not want to deal with that, but omitting it would be very, very, VERY bad writing. That would be ignoring a defining aspect of her. All because they lack the f*cking courage to let a character retain a grey morality and have their protagonist like her. They wrote Miranda as they did in ME2. I say deal with it!

I'll wait and see, but if things don't change from the leaked version, I'll call them cowards. Given how Cerberus appears to be portrayed in ME3, it would be no problem at all for a "grey" Miranda to leave even if she didn't resign and retain her belief in some form of human advancement. But no, she has to turn uncontroversial and safe, just like all the others. Look at Mordin. All falling into a Paragon-compatible mould like so many lined up pins. Gods how I hate these dropping anvils.

Justify herself is exactly what Miranda should do. While cutting ties with Cebrerus, she should stay the competent operative and be the symbol of the fact that there are desirable versions of "human advancement". Being deceived by a master manipulator like TIM wouldn't lessen her much in my eyes, especially if TIM grew worse over time. Some people undoubtedly would call her stupid, but we've dealt with those types before. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 décembre 2011 - 10:05 .

[naledgeborn]

You, Ieldra, should write Mac Walters a letter. An actual pen and paper letter. Send it all the way to NA in Canada. Maybe that'll get their attention. Sometimes I think they don't read anything on these boards.