82210 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

And the irony is that I don't like the Miranda of the leak. If she were a new character, I wouldn't hate her, but I'd hardly give her a second glance. She's dull. Even Paragon!Miranda should be concerned about denying the Reapers an ally. But no. Her primary, nearly sole, concern is her family. I want an equal, not Romance Heroine #342.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 Being deceived by a master manipulator like TIM wouldn't lessen her much in my eyes, especially if TIM grew worse over time. Some people undoubtedly would call her stupid, but we've dealt with those types before. 

Anyway, what's done is done: she was deceived. Given her past and what Cerberus meant to her, it's not surprising that it might happen. It was a huge mistake, of course, but that's fine. Making a mistake/having a flaw, that's all good. The question then becomes: what does the character do about it, how does she respond?

In the leak, all I see are writers running away from it and avoiding the issue, which in turn makes the story about Miranda avoiding the issue.

Cerberus is largely her problem to deal with, one way or another. For the moment there is a transparent and completely blatant plot contrivance that prevents that aspect of her story from being given adequate attention.



Edit: By the way, I posted a minor query in the romance thread in the spoiler group, just thought I'd mention it since discussion has died down there a bit recently

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 10:17 .

[MisterJB]

Not sure I'd automatically classify Miranda's time with Cerberus as a huge mistake. She was deceived, certainly, but if the work she did while with them saved lives (case in point, bringing Shepard back), the only mistake would be if she stayed loyal to them in ME3.

Modifié par MisterJB, 01 décembre 2011 - 10:23 .

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...

Not sure I'd automatically classify Miranda's time with Cerberus as a huge mistake. She was deceived, certainly, but if the work she did while with them saved lives (case in point, bringing Shepard back), the only mistake would be if she stayed loyal to then in ME3.

Agreed. Didn't really mean that necessarily in a categorical way, as in "everything she did with Cerberus was a mistake." Just that she was deceived, and that believing too much of what TIM told her (about aspects of the organisation beyond her immediate oversight) was a mistake.

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 10:27 .

[Ieldra]

naledgeborn wrote...
You, Ieldra, should write Mac Walters a letter. An actual pen and paper letter. Send it all the way to NA in Canada. Maybe that'll get their attention. Sometimes I think they don't read anything on these boards.

You think that would be of any use? I've twittered him the link to my post at the top of page 830, and at least one other has done that, too. You're free to do the same. Otherwise, I'm sure they'll realize the current mood on this thread. Whether they'll do anything about it - whether it's too late to do anything about it, I have no idea. But if things stay as they are, I'll demand an apology.

Until then, I can only repeat this:

----

@Bioware:
Miranda's Cerberus story arc needs closure.
 Cerberus defined her entire adult life. Why she stayed so long, why she was so dedicated to them to rise high in their ranks, what human advancement means to her, and how she feels about TIM's betrayal, all that needs to be explained. Without it her story would be incomplete. She should be present at *spoiler location follows* the Illusive Man's base. Details see here and here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 décembre 2011 - 10:30 .

[jtav]

I have the sneaking suspicion Miranda was there to be redeemed, and that the writers regard everything Cerberus as tainted. Human advancement is simply code for racism and must be given up utterly.

[flemm]

I feel like my/our expectations are really quite reasonable. Not on the squad? Ok. Disappointing, but these things happen.

However: if Miranda is left on that planet with nothing to do, as appears to happen in the leaked script, a line will have been crossed. And writing her out of the Cerberus story will be inexcusable as well.

jtav wrote...

I have the sneaking suspicion Miranda was
there to be redeemed, and that the writers regard everything Cerberus as
tainted. Human advancement is simply code for racism and must be given
up utterly.

If the writers went in that direction, I would not approve, but it would at least be complete from a narrative standpoint. In the script, Miranda is not satisfactorily redeemed, except perhaps in the scenario where she dies.

If it's redemption she's after, she would need to pursue Cerberus/TIM with a lot more fire and passion than she is able to muster in the script. She's interested in protecting her family and then... the character is dropped. No redemption there.

Modifié par flemm, 01 décembre 2011 - 10:55 .

[naledgeborn]

jtav wrote...

I have the sneaking suspicion Miranda was there to be redeemed, and that the writers regard everything Cerberus as tainted. Human advancement is simply code for racism and must be given up utterly.

If that indeed is the case I want nothing to do with Miranda and while we're at it, Mass Effect 3. 

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I have the sneaking suspicion Miranda was there to be redeemed, and that the writers regard everything Cerberus as tainted. Human advancement is simply code for racism and must be given up utterly.

Tbh, the vibe I'm getting from the writers is a confusing mix of the brilliant and the retarded. They write interesting moral conundrums like the genophage, make it clear that Miranda believes in some form of human advancement while not being xenophobic at all, and then apparently they didn't foresee the problems of the large team of ME2 combined with an "everyone can die" scenario, and they build the morality of ME3 on a simplistic setup a five-year-old could poke holes in.

You may be right about Cerberus as a group. They *are* irredeemable in ME3, and well, you could see it coming even while ME2 kept the hopes for a subversion up. I'm not so sure about the human advancement issue though. Not unless the writers are much more ideologically hidebound than I find plausible. But perhaps some are. And perhaps the fact that exactly no one here buys into the simplistic partitioning of the moral landscape that equates human advancement with racism gave them pause.

And recall that control chip scene. No, I think at least some of the writers are aware of the mutable face of "human advancement". Why they hesitate to write about that, I have no idea.

naledgeborn wrote...
If that indeed is the case I want nothing to do with Miranda and while we're at it, Mass Effect 3.

Yep. Making Miranda's story a redemption story would make me boycott Bioware for the next ten years and pretend ME3 doesn't exist as far as her story goes. So far, though, that interpretation is limited to one or two NPCs, and what do I care what they think about Miranda. As long as it stays there, I can live with it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 décembre 2011 - 11:16 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
I feel like my/our expectations are really quite reasonable. Not on the squad? Ok. Disappointing, but these things happen.

However: if Miranda is left on that planet with nothing to do, as appears to happen in the leaked script, a line will have been crossed. And writing her out of the Cerberus story will be inexcusable as well.

Quoted for emphasis. I don't think one opinion has ever been repeated as often with such a complete consensus as this in the history of the Miranda threads. That should tell Bioware something.

Hmm. Perhaps I should write a new version of the dialogue I posted on page 831.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Hey everyone I am back and supporting Miri still... sorry I was away from any news on ME3 or anything for that fact. Death in the family... I had a lot to take care of. Sigh I need to read the last 200 pages to catch up on the Miri gossip.

[CrutchCricket]

Regarding the general shift towards traditional values: I wonder if EA is the one doing the throttling. Though I maintain that in general, ME2 characters were initially meant to be throwaways I find it hard to believe we know them better than their creators. This is different from admitting the SM was a mistake- that just shows a lack of forethought. But Bioware is strong in storytelling, particularly characters and dialog. Bad planning or not, it simply doesn't fit that they wouldn't know what they have in front of them. But if the parent company's jerking the chain (as parent companies often do) that's a different story.

Edit: Omega4RelayResident, sorry for your loss. As a warning however, the previous 200 pages will not lighten your mood any thanks in part to some dubious and unfavorable leaked info and the (over)reaction to it.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 01 décembre 2011 - 11:30 .

[jtav]

Given that DA2 was steeped in moral ambiguity and was made completely while BW was part of EA, I don't think we can blame them directly.

[Master Shiori]

flemm wrote...

Hard to speculate on anything behind the scenes, but it would surprise me. That said, Yvonne hasn't been confirmed to be returning, so until that happens, I guess we can't rule anything out, including other scenarios that might have prevented her from being involved.

But she is listed as voicing Miranda in ME3 on IMDB.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 01 décembre 2011 - 11:34 .

[CrutchCricket]

Any changes in management at EA since then though? So many different factors could have an impact, "the writers got retarded" is hardly the most believable.

[Burneye Is God]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Edited to include the obligatory top-of-the-page picture:

Badass Miranda...

chessplayer209 wrote...

(8)She's human. For those who find interspecies romance unconvincing, that’s an important aspect if you want to romance her.

I'm going to disagree here. While it's not something I feel strongly about, I just disagree with it because it seems a little prejudice. Who's to say there's anything wrong with interspecies romance?

I say so. It has nothing to do with prejudice, it's more about plausibility, and it's also not exactly about inter-species romance (as in love relationship) as about interspecies sexual attraction, which plainly shouldn't exist except as a fetish. As I said somewhere else, it's not that I need brain bleach for interspecies sex, I need a universe editor. For me it is purely a worldbuilding issue. A species from a different star system with no common ancestry with humans, and still similar enough to humans that humans are attracted to them as a rule, that just.....does not exist. 

I'm well aware that these are concerns of a minority, but I've found enough people who agree with me to include the fact that Miranda is human as a factor why people prefer her to someone like, say, Tali as an LI. Not a decisive one, no, but still, if you like both characters, that Miranda is human might make the difference. Also note that you can appreciate a non-human as a character and be best friends with him or her, and still find the idea of  romancing that character implausible for the aforementioned reasons.  

I believe others have already addressed your other concerns.

Possible endings for Miranda

(1) The Illusive Woman: Miranda takes over what remains of Cerberus and creates humanity's equivalent of the salarian STG from it.
(2) Into the Sunset: Miranda and Shepard lead an expedition into the unknown reaches of the galaxy, never to be seen again in Citadel space.
(3) The Foundation: Miranda inherits her father's fortune and uses it to develop Lazarus technology into something more widely available and develop other human enhancement technologies.

#1 could be interesting.  See above where I discuss your idea of her using her sexuality as a weapon. Perhaps she could manipulate Shepard into helping her accomplish this sort of thing. I don't think we should confine the idea to having the organization be similar to some other already-existing organization. Other options could be explored, to include the possibility of simple personal gain being a motive. Honestly, I think that'd make a more interesting story and twist on her relationship with Shepard, but that's debatable.

#2 might take shape in the form of teasers for future additions to the Mass Effect franchise. I could definitely go for more Mass Effect..

I think #3 in particular is interesting, not so much because of Miranda's involvement so much as that I'd just like to see Mass Effect embrace even more sci-fi themes.  Theoretically, technological advancements related to the Lazarus Project or similar projects sound very interesting. If more involvement with Miranda is desired, perhaps Miranda could become involved with some sort of movement for further genetics science research? This seems like it could be more relevant to her character and potential character development.

As someone else has pointed out, Miranda working purely for personal gain would be out of character. Recall how she decries her father's plans as egomaniacal and contrasts Cerberus who unlike her father, don't do what they do for selfish reasons (her words). Miranda may possibly be misguided (ME3 might shed light on that) but she's an idealist at heart. The main difference between the "Illusive Woman" scenario and the "Foundation" scenario is that the former emphasizes her role as an operative and keeps more of her pragmatic nature intact, while the latter emphasizes her role as a competent project leader in R&D. The "Into the Sunset" ending is basically not meant to imply anything. It's just for those who feel Miranda and Shepard should leave Citadel Civilization behind, for various reasons. Quite a few people said that.

oh man i love miri hopefully she'll be a perminant squaddie in mass effect 3 ps where did peeps get all the spoilers from???? grr,,,,, lmao

[flemm]

Master Shiori wrote...

But she is listed as voicing Miranda in ME3 on IMDB.

That's been there for a long time, but the info on imdb is not necessarily reliable. It would probably not stay up there for long if it had been confirmed to be false, but in this case it's probably based more on the plausible assumption that she is returning.

And, of course, as far as we know, she is returning. But it seems she hasn't been in the studio yet (why would Bioware keep this a secret?), so, if she's doing the VA for Miranda, it seems she is doing it quite late.

That's why the working theory is that she will be back in the studio after Chuck wraps in a week or two.

CrutchCricket wrote...
Any changes in management at EA since then though? So many different factors could have an impact, "the writers got retarded" is hardly the most believable.

I think it's probably just the force of the cliché and the personality of the ME dev team.

Modifié par flemm, 02 décembre 2011 - 12:06 .

[TomY90]

flemm wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

But she is listed as voicing Miranda in ME3 on IMDB.

That's been there for a long time, but the info on imdb is not necessarily reliable. It would probably not stay up there for long if it had been confirmed to be false, but in this case it's probably based more on the plausible assumption that she is returning.

And, of course, as far as we know, she is returning. But, it seems she hasn't been in the studio yet (why would Bioware keep this a secret?), so, if she's doing the VA for Miranda, it seems she is doing it quite late.

That's why the working theory is that she will be back in the studio after Chuck wraps in a week or two.

They are keeping there mouths sealed on it because they want to announce the big actors/actresses as near to launch as possible so that it builds up publicity for the game prior to launch.

Think positively like this, they are leaving the best till last lol

[zukkkyyy]

[Burneye Is God]

miranda if anyone needs to return it's her!!! integerial part of the mass effect redemtion comic series and mass effect 2, plus how the game ends etc.... perfect fit for mass effect 3 imo

[flemm]

TomY90 wrote...
They are keeping there mouths sealed on it because they want to announce the big actors/actresses as near to launch as possible so that it builds up publicity for the game prior to launch.

Think positively like this, they are leaving the best till last lol

It could be. Though, if you compare with, for example, Martin Sheen, Tricia Helfer, Courtenay Taylor and others, they seem to be making a news item out of the well-known returning actors being in the studio.

Not sure there's anyone big left to reveal except Vega's VA, if he's that type of name.

It's plausible she might just be coming in late (because of Chuck), though I'm not making any assumptions at this point. They haven't released the VA list, and we've heard about Mordin's VA possibly not returning.

Modifié par flemm, 02 décembre 2011 - 12:13 .

[Burneye Is God]

wow wait a sec mordin not returning???

[flemm]

Burneye Is God wrote...

wow wait a sec mordin not returning???

Read it and weep:

http://social.biowar...5/index/7630984

For clarity's sake, I'll emphasize that, in Strahovski's case, we don't have anything comparable to the email from Beattie.

Edit: Just the VA. Mordin himself will be back, though perhaps with a different VA. Not sure if that was clear. Not cool at all, though.

Modifié par flemm, 02 décembre 2011 - 12:19 .

[Burneye Is God]

oh wow!!! i hope casey and co get this sorted michael beattie as mordin was so loveable and likeable!!! made me smile every play through and there was a lot of play through's lol

[Omega4RelayResident]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Regarding the general shift towards traditional values: I wonder if EA is the one doing the throttling. Though I maintain that in general, ME2 characters were initially meant to be throwaways I find it hard to believe we know them better than their creators. This is different from admitting the SM was a mistake- that just shows a lack of forethought. But Bioware is strong in storytelling, particularly characters and dialog. Bad planning or not, it simply doesn't fit that they wouldn't know what they have in front of them. But if the parent company's jerking the chain (as parent companies often do) that's a different story.

Edit: Omega4RelayResident, sorry for your loss. As a warning however, the previous 200 pages will not lighten your mood any thanks in part to some dubious and unfavorable leaked info and the (over)reaction to it.

Thank you for your condolences. Im moving on with life slowly but surely.

Leaked info? Sigh it seems I might be pissy after all. Okay I love Yvonne and all but if she decided to not return to do the voice of Miri I know there would be a few other actresses that could fill the spot and it would be very difficult for us to be mad with the choices. I mean we would and / or should be able to tell the difference but the disparity would not be that off.

Rhona Mitra is one of those actresses that I believie could do Miri justice. She has the experience in being an on screen / off screen sexy badass chick. Movies she has been in (Doomsday, Hollow Man, Underworld: Rise of the Lycans) I also think she has a Sci Fi movie under her belt but I forgot which one.

EDIT: Wow first day back and somehow I get top of the page miraculously again. BRB with Miri content.



EDIT2: There you go.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 02 décembre 2011 - 12:27 .