82210 réponses à ce sujet

[flemm]

Well, the SM is a big design question that involves a lot of different factors. There are two things about it that really leap out at me:

1) It's really, really EPIC and awesome, but the way character deaths are handled is not what makes it cool. If anything, the character deaths are the weakest thing about it. They don't have a lot of emotional weight, they're really easy to avoid, and they don't impact the outcome (unless so many die that Shep also dies, which is basically a gameover screen).

2) The character deaths are a massive design headache with little actual pay-off in ME3, in terms of variety or replayability, compared with, say, decisions like the Collector Base, had the devs been able to focus on that. Reason being that the CB could potentially affect the game in a variety of interesting ways, whereas character deaths just make everyone expendable and force substitute characters to be created all over the place.

Modifié par flemm, 04 décembre 2011 - 12:46 .

[alperez]

@flemm

I completely agree with both your points.

1) The emotional weight though probably has as much to do with how large the squad is, its hard to be emotional about someone dying when you have 11 backups ready to go.

While i dislike Virmire (from a game design standpoint, in terms of using possible LI's rather than others and from a logic standpoint, stg team needs to use alliance comm's and a human that understands it why) it at least creates emotional weight because your team is small and more tightly knitted.

2) It actually gets even worse, its things like that which add into dumbing down the potential scenarios that most choices could affect.

One of my biggest gripes with choice ramification is not the base or the rachni, its the counsellor choice, rather than spend the time making it work if you pick Anderson, it gets negated anyway given us Udina and creating what i'm really annoyed with in the script, but i can't elaborate since its spoilery and i don't know how the whole hiding text thing works, i'll pm if you wish though.

The worst aspect of the SM though is there's no excuse for it, since they already knew how difficult it was incorporating the potential dead characters from me1.

[Dr. Doctor]

The thing with the SM is this, in the event that someone does die (which you really need to screw something up to have happen) I can just reload and try again. There isn't any consequence for failure, and from the looks of ME3 there doesn't seem to have been any reason to have ME2 happen other than the fact that Bioware wanted a trilogy.

[flemm]

alperez wrote...
It actually gets even worse, its things like that which add into dumbing down the potential scenarios that most choices could affect.

Well, I think this could end up being the most important ramification, other than maybe a lot of characters having disappointing appearances.

Agreed on the counselor choice, I think I know what spoiler you're referring to.

If ME2 could be redone, the thing to do would probably be to reduce the characters on the squad to the most plot-relevant ones, deepen the main story, and focus more on variety of different outcomes to the final mission, rather than on who dies/who doesn't. You could still have some possible deaths, of course, but you could put much less of a focus on that.

Modifié par flemm, 04 décembre 2011 - 01:05 .

[CrutchCricket]

alperez wrote...
If you've seen someone spit on that burger, drop in on the floor and wipe it against their chest before putting it back on the burner to finish cooking though, then you can pretty much conclude just exactly what type of a burger you may be getting.

I don't agree any of this has happened or indeed that you're seeing the burger at all. You caught a brief glimpse, nothing more. And why people insist on citing one or two precedent cases and considering them irrefutable proof is beyond me.

flemm: I don't exactly appreciate what you're accusing me of here. I have no desire to "control the conversation". However the problem is anytime the leak is talked about, the gloom and pessimism skyrockets and people just coming in that don't have the time or patience to read through everything pick up on the emotions expressed and just snowball the **** out of them. This side isn't just overrepresented, it's the only one represented. Who else tries to pull it back? Who else tries to say "it's not over yet"? I commended your objectivity earlier. You don't really contribute to that snowballing. But neither do you do much to counter it. And while you may be able to just "talk" about the leak, others let their emotions make it worse than it has to be. And frankly that makes coming here worse than it has to be.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
flemm: I don't exactly appreciate what you're accusing me of here. I have no desire to "control the conversation".

That's cool. And I understand that's not your intent. For you, it's more that you're trying to combat pessimism. Also, like I say, I like a lot of what you contribute to the conversation.

That said, there's a big difference, imo, between: "Here's what I'm happy about," or "Here's why I am still excited about the game," and focusing mainly on what other people are posting and feeling, and why you'd rather they not post or feel those things.

CrutchCricket wrote...
And while you may be able to just "talk" about the leak, others let their emotions make it worse than it has to be.

Emotions are going to be involved. That's the way it is. I'm not saying you should feel the same, but I am saying that it's understandable that some people are upset/irritated about what they are seeing, and that they are expressing that here.

Modifié par flemm, 04 décembre 2011 - 01:24 .

[alperez]

CrutchCricket wrote...

I don't agree any of this has happened or indeed that you're seeing the burger at all. You caught a brief glimpse, nothing more. And why people insist on citing one or two precedent cases and considering them irrefutable proof is beyond me.

Your perfectly entitled not to agree and to believe that all we saw was a brief glimpse, as am i to agree or disagree with your assessment.

Again while i don't believe the script to be a full and 100% accurate picture, i do think its a lot more than a brief glimpse of what that picture may be, simply put the more things change the more they stay the same, so while certain situations have been expanded or removed from one version to another, the general tone and direction stays the same.

Like i said, the VS still does what they do and there are other examples of pretty much the same thing in both versions, what may change may be the presentation of certain things, but the directions of character arcs and the overall direction they're taking the plot in, won't or isn't changed that much in either version, so in essence they've already decided how things will play out, something that's clear in both versions and would require massive changes to be different now.

As for citing one or two precedents and considering them irrefutable proof, i don't think i said that, what i said was that we have evidence of the same thing happening before with the same company and the same excuses being offered to allay any concerns, only to find out that this was not in fact true, so why should we accept it on face value that this time is different?

But again we're covering old ground and getting caught up in an argument that's been done to death, you have your view, i have mine, so long as people keep bringing up the leaked script or expectations for me3, people who believe as you do will point out the points you make yourself, as will people who believe as i do.

If it annoys you or causes you grief that not everyone feels how you do or sees things how you do , then the next 3 months may be long indeed.

[alperez]

flemm wrote...

Well, I think this could end up being the most important ramification, other than maybe a lot of characters having disappointing appearances.

Agreed on the counselor choice, I think I know what spoiler you're referring to.

If ME2 could be redone, the thing to do would probably be to reduce the characters on the squad to the most plot-relevant ones, deepen the main story, and focus more on variety of different outcomes to the final mission, rather than on who dies/who doesn't. You could still have some possible deaths, of course, but you could put much less of a focus on that.

I suspect your spot on with the spoiler so i'll just leave it at that.

Don't mention me2 being redone, i'm still hoping for a ff7 redo but that's a whole different discussion lol.

But if only they'd used your logic when creating me2, ah wishful thinking is a wonderous thing,

[CrutchCricket]

We may never agree on the subject of the leak vs the final game. I will not lose any sleep over that. It comes down to representation though. What I want to see is both sides made clear and what you choose to believe just coming down to personal choice.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

We may never agree on the subject of the leak vs the final game. I will not lose any sleep over that. It comes down to representation though. What I want to see is both sides made clear and what you choose to believe just coming down to personal choice.

You're not really going to be able to control representation, though.

Unless you create a bunch of extra accounts or something

I'm all for hearing about reasons for optimism, to the extent they are plausible ones. In that sense, where Miranda is concerned, the main plausible reasons for optimism that I see are the following:

1) The direction of the leak would not be bad if it were only the beginning of her involvement (say, about half).

2) It's easy to see how that other half might play out, where it would happen, etc., with nothing else really needing to be changed.

3) Miranda's role in the leaked script does feel legitimately incomplete and unfinished, at least to a degree.

If a couple of key additions were made, it could be good. If enough were made, it could actually still be awesome. So, we'll see. There's a lot of adding to be done, rather than rewriting, in Miranda's case. There are way too many "if" clauses in that whole line of thinking for me to feel too good about it, though.

Modifié par flemm, 04 décembre 2011 - 02:05 .

[alperez]

CrutchCricket wrote...

We may never agree on the subject of the leak vs the final game. I will not lose any sleep over that. It comes down to representation though. What I want to see is both sides made clear and what you choose to believe just coming down to personal choice.

I have absolutely no problem with that at all, both sides should be made clear and personal choice is everything, as for the leak v final game, we'll pretty much know come march anyway, believe me i hope your more right than i am and if so i will have no problem wearing a Crutch was right t-shirt (although perhaps that may have to wait until after march, its bloody cold where i live and t-shirts may not be the best idea).

[alperez]

In terms of Miranda i'm actually more hopeful about that being one of the changes than i am about any other issue i may have with the script.

As Flemm rightly points out her role feels unfinished in the leak and its quite easy to see where it could be expanded without causing major changes elsewhere.

Its basically a couple of things inserted here and there and Miranda's role goes from what it appears to be now to something close to our best or wildest hopes for it (squadmate status excepted), if they got it to where we hoped it may go from here, it may even be enough to make my other concerns less of a worry, as its a big reason why i dislike what i've read so far.

[jtav]

As loath as i am to broach the subject of Miranda's infertility, I have a question: what exactly is wrong with her? I get that its a benign tumor, but is the problem with her eggs or the uterus? Why is it untreatable?

I wish I could have just made her a cancer survivor because I get a hysterectomy as an infertility cause more than a tumor. At least in 2185. Alas, I've already put Miranda through medical hell, and additional suffering strains belief.

This is so I can cure it, btw, but I need to know what's wrong before I can have Cerberus 2 develop a cure.

[Dr. Doctor]

It doesn't exactly go into detail about it. Its a benign tumor in an unidentified area that could possibly be a result of Mr. Lawson's alterations. It could be potentially untreatable simply because they don't know the cause of it, they also mention progressing damage.

It could be that Miranda's enhanced healing ability leads to a higher incidence of benign tumors. Either that or the modifications made to make her age slower could have had an impact on how her cells divide.

The primary component in this process is telomerase it allows cells to replace the missing bits of DNA that are lost during mitosis. We age because eventually the number of missing chunks of DNA become too much for the cells in our body to compensate for, thus leading to cellular degradation. Increasing telomerase production has the potential to slow down the aging process, or in some instances causes cancerous growth.

Considering that genetic medicine is common in 2185, genes that predispose an individual to certain cancers are silenced in-utero. Environmental causes are most likely treatable through introduction of telomerase or other error-correcting drugs.

The issue that Miranda runs into is that the process used to create her is proprietary. The only person who knows the full extent of her tailoring and the process behind it is Mr. Lawson. My theory is that the condition is completely treatable, the only issue is that all of the adjustments and tailoring made to Miranda's genome makes it difficult to apply modern medical techniques.

Think of it like bringing a modern day car to a mechanic from a hundred years ago. The basic principles of how both vehicles work are the same, but the specifics are completely different.

[jtav]

That was actually incredibly helpful. Thank you.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
As loath as i am to broach the subject of Miranda's infertility, I have a question: what exactly is wrong with her? I get that its a benign tumor, but is the problem with her eggs or the uterus? Why is it untreatable?

Well, it's never made any sense from that point of view, as far as I'm concerned. From a story perspective, the only thing I can think of that maybe makes sense is that it's a sort of failsafe that Miranda's father builds into his daughters. A control mechanism of some kind. One could probably come up with some sort of pop sci-fi technobabble to explain how this works. But it would matter less, in that scenario, that it's nonsensical medically, because it would have a narrative function.

What, exactly, has motivated Miranda's father has always been a little hazy. One positive aspect of the leaked script is that the writers seem to have decided to address that directly. So, to the extent that the infertility issue is dealt with, I suppose it would be during that part of the story.

It's doubly wierd because Miranda's father's priority is his "legacy," which he wants to last forever. So, presumably, reproduction would be necessary for that.

@ Dr. Doctor, great post, basically what you're suggesting is that it ties back to the father, which I agree is the only thing that makes sense.

Modifié par flemm, 04 décembre 2011 - 03:22 .

[Dr. Doctor]

From what we get from the codex, genetic modification is used on a rather small scale, shutting off genes that cause genetic disease, retro-viral injections to improve eyesight, endurance, etc. These traits are improved, but the individual still within the human norm.

On the other hand with Miranda, Mr. Lawson has gone in and tweaked the human genome to increase longevity, alter appearance, increase strength, healing factors, the whole nine yards. Miranda's genes deviate so far away from what commercially available medicine its currently capable of in 2185 that treating even the simplest of problems becomes difficult. With the information on how exactly Miranda was genetically tailored a treatment could be created.

This is of course my theory.

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
 With the information on how exactly Miranda was genetically tailored a treatment could be created.

This is of course my theory.

I think it makes sense, but, considering the manipulative and domineering personality of Miranda's father, I think one could add to that theory that the infertility could be, not just an accidental side-effect of the genetic enhancments that regular medicine of the period cannot cope with, but an intentional side-effect that would prevent an escaped daughter, like Miranda, from reproducing without his assistance. Seems fairly plausible. 

It's his legacy, after all, that he's interested in preserving.

Now, granted, there are other ways that Miranda could theoretically reproduce, but maybe those would be problematic, too, without a deeper understanding of how Miranda was modified genetically.

Modifié par flemm, 04 décembre 2011 - 04:21 .

[Dr. Doctor]

This line of discussion has me wondering about the whole concept of Mr. Lawson's "genetic dynasty". What if he created it with the idea of improving the whole of humanity? Curing a disease is one thing, but the man who gave humanity greater intelligence, strength and longevity would be honored by history. Both for his actions and the descendants of those who received his modifications. The future of the human race would be shaped by his developments.

[Drone223]

Ross Shepard and Miranda Lawson

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Indeed. Please someone remind me why she's worth it. I have yet to take Matt through the game. (He's my Hawke, not my Shep) Why shouldn't he go for Liara or Jack the way things are going?

A little reminder, quoted from your very own OP, even if I collected the list:

Ten reasons why we like Miranda
(1) She’s an independently powerful and competent woman who can deal with her problems – professional or emotional – on her own (note: that doesn’t mean she doesn’t appreciate help). She’s the only female LI character who plays in the same league as Shepard. That makes her a perfect companion for him.
(2) She’s morally ambiguous. Black and white types tend to be predictable – and thus, often less interesting than those with grey morality. Her mental flexibility also means that she adapts better to situations where conventional morality just doesn't apply.
(3) She’s emotionally detached... - enough to be fascinating and refreshing, but not so much as to be unlikeable. All too often women in fiction are represented as more or less defined by their emotions. Miranda breaks that pattern. She can be professional; she can be coldly detached or coolly unmovable. She can also be emotional, but she’s not restricted to that.
(4) ...but does warm up to those she respects and trusts. Trust and (professional) respect are interwoven in her relationship to you. Once you've gained them, she becomes more open with you, and you know that's something special.
(5) She’s a “spy with superpowers”. This combination of power and mystery is irresistible to many of her fans.
(6) She's a woman, not a girl. Her grown-up and balanced personality attracts many fans.
(7) She's unapologetically sexual - and not presented as a sl*t because of it (forget the ass shots and pay attention to her behavior if you don't believe it). That's refreshing because more conventional stories like to paint a woman who enjoys sex - to say nothing of sex in engine rooms - in a more negative light.
(8) She's human. For those who find interspecies romance unconvincing, that’s an important aspect if you want to romance her.
(9) She’s engineered to be perfect. While for some, that’s a point of attraction in itself, if you’re a transhumanist you might also be thrilled by the fact that she might be – dare I say it – the genetic destiny of humanity.
(10) She’s beautiful. This point is not as minor as people might want to make themselves believe. It’s not a necessary condition for liking her, but Miranda would be a different character if she were ugly. If you think she's not beautiful, look at these screenshots. one two three.

And whatever the problems with her motivations and Cerberus aspect being dealt with, most of these traits appear to be intact. This includes #1, and in fact, I appreciate this parallel offscreen story arc covering about half of the game she appears to have - it even intersects the main plot at a critical point, which is not something you can say for some other characters. #2 might be hard to implement with a picture as black and white as ME3 appears to present, and #3 - well, there's one of the problematic areas with her being apparently driven so much by personal concerns that it hides any concern for the big picture. But I don't need to repeat that.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, she's still the Miranda we love. That one or the other trait is underrepresented doesn't mean she's lost it since her ME2 presentation is still valid. That doesn't mean that ME3 not presenting her concern for the big picture and humanity's advancement wouldn't be hugely annoying, but here I'm actually somewhat optimistic that it will be there. The way it will be may not be enough to satisfy as an element of her story arc (and yes, I will complaint about that should it be so), but it will be enough to keep her character intact.

So...was that a convincing reminder? 

@Drone223:
Ah, I see. "Mission accomplished"   Much appreciated.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 décembre 2011 - 09:13 .

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
It doesn't exactly go into detail about it. Its a benign tumor in an unidentified area that could possibly be a result of Mr. Lawson's alterations. It could be potentially untreatable simply because they don't know the cause of it, they also mention progressing damage.

The thing is, benign tumors are *defined* by the fact that they don't invade neighboring tissue to cause progressive damage. They can cause pain by obstructing blood vessels and creating pressure, but that's a purely mechanical effect.

Which leads directly to....

The issue that Miranda runs into is that the process used to create her is proprietary. The only person who knows the full extent of her tailoring and the process behind it is Mr. Lawson. My theory is that the condition is completely treatable, the only issue is that all of the adjustments and tailoring made to Miranda's genome makes it difficult to apply modern medical techniques.

Think of it like bringing a modern day car to a mechanic from a hundred years ago. The basic principles of how both vehicles work are the same, but the specifics are completely different.

I would still say that for the abovementioned reasons, it shouldn't be hard to remove the thing, but your theory sounds very plausible. In fact, the only plausible one I've seen so far.

One remaining problem is that I must conclude the doctor who sent the mail is incompetent. If there was only a cursory diagnosis, they would've concluded that it's perfectly treatable by standard procedures, and if they had a closer look they would've seen it was difficult to treat but not impossible. But well, incompetent doctors exist and are much more plausible than an infertility caused by a benign tumor being completely untreatable by late 22nd century medicine.

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
This line of discussion has me wondering about the whole concept of Mr. Lawson's "genetic dynasty". What if he created it with the idea of improving the whole of humanity? Curing a disease is one thing, but the man who gave humanity greater intelligence, strength and longevity would be honored by history. Both for his actions and the descendants of those who received his modifications. The future of the human race would be shaped by his developments.

I've been wondering about that for a long time. His legacy would be present in all of humanity. I find it completely incomprehensible why someone wouldn't want to go for that.

But apparently he isn't the type who sees things that way. He appears to have some "genetic aristrocracy supremacy ideology". It's insane and utterly implausible, but many ideologies are, the more extreme ones more so than others. His treatment of Miranda and her sisters sort of gives it away that he's going for exclusivity, some sort of genetically engineered master race.

What I can see - and what I actually envision - is that Miranda takes her father's legacy and turns it into a benefit for all humanity. That would be dramatically appropriate.
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 décembre 2011 - 10:49 .

[naledgeborn]

Maybe her tumor isn't a "side-effect" of her genetic tailoring. Maybe it's a side-effect to her biotic abilities or the exposure to eezo/eezo nodules in her nervous system/an adverse reaction to her bioamp. The precedent is certainly there. She maybe perfect but like Kaidan her biotic abilities are a gift and a curse.

Edit: And as in Dr. Doctor's example her genetic advancement is the reason why it's "untreatable". Not necessarily the cause. 

Modifié par naledgeborn, 04 décembre 2011 - 01:51 .

[JosephDucreux]

Maybe her eezo nodules tainted her eggs beyond a level where it still can be fertilized, making her unable to conceive?

Iunno man. No matter what, it's still absolutely sh*tty writing. It's almost like BW gave the script to a hormonal 13 year who hates Miranda for no good reason.