82210 réponses à ce sujet

[naledgeborn]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's gone well so far, I think.

Doesn't make her more qualified than, say a paramilitary operative with 15 years of intelligence, counter-intelligence, and field training.

[Ieldra]

MassStorm wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...
Yea, let's not forgot how BW gave the SB title to the person who's least qualified use it.

 oh where have you been ma boy...totally missed your daily hate posts.

Never mind the occasional outburts, he does have a point. The damage was done with Liara's character assassination between ME1 and ME2, after Bioware decided that it would take less work to have one canon romance available for both genders. Everything else followed from there.

@Xil:
Yeah, totally forgot her. That it wasn't intentional should tell you something.

naledgeborn wrote...
Doesn't make her more qualified than, say a paramilitary operative with 15 years of intelligence, counter-intelligence, and field training.

Indeed. Before LotSB came out, I expected Miranda to become Shepard's primary intelligence-gatherer in the end.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 décembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[The Elder King]

naledgeborn wrote...

Yea, let's not forgot how BW gave the SB title to the person who's least qualified use it.

I don't like the treatment  of favour Bioware gave Liara (both in favor of VS in ME2 and in favor to the ME2 squadmates in ME3, considering that with her role she could've easily been outside the squad), but I don't think of anyone else you could've become the SB from the characters we know. Miranda maybe is better suited to run this type of organization but she is concentrated on humanity's progress and advancment (which is one of the things I like of her).

Modifié par hhh89, 05 décembre 2011 - 02:50 .

[Ieldra]

hhh89 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...
Yea, let's not forgot how BW gave the SB title to the person who's least qualified use it.

I don't like the treatment  of favour Bioware gave Liara (both in favor of VS in ME2 and in favor to the ME2 squadmates in ME3, considering that with her role she could've easily been outside the squad), but I don't think of anyone else you could've become the SB from the characters we know. Miranda maybe is better suited to run this type of organization but she is concentrated on humanity's progress and advancment (which is one of the things I like of her).

Miranda would not be neutral enough for the SB role, so much is true. But I still think that she should have become Shepard's primary intelligence gatherer. That Liara got that role, who had to be character-assassinated to qualify, and now her office, too, is insulting. They better make Miranda's story awesome, just to balance that slight.

[AresXX7]

@Ieldra2

I can send you a PM, just let me know if you want everything that was sent to me, or a few vague details.

[The Elder King]

Ieldra2 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...
Yea, let's not forgot how BW gave the SB title to the person who's least qualified use it.

I don't like the treatment  of favour Bioware gave Liara (both in favor of VS in ME2 and in favor to the ME2 squadmates in ME3, considering that with her role she could've easily been outside the squad), but I don't think of anyone else you could've become the SB from the characters we know. Miranda maybe is better suited to run this type of organization but she is concentrated on humanity's progress and advancment (which is one of the things I like of her).

Miranda would not be neutral enough for the SB role, so much is true. But I still think that she should have become Shepard's primary intelligence gatherer. That Liara got that role, who had to be character-assassinated to qualify, and now her office, too, is insulting. They better make Miranda's story awesome, just to balance that slight.

I agree with you. I was merely talking about the SB's role, which I though Liara will take even before LOTSB came out .
I though that Miranda would have the role too. Too bad it's not like this.
Don't care much about the office, because someone would have take it if Miranda isn't present on the ship. I'll guess that Liara is the XO, since she has that office.
Do the leaked script says anything about the VS and their place on the ship?

Modifié par hhh89, 05 décembre 2011 - 02:59 .

[jtav]

spoiler: VS has the observation deck.

I'm over my resentment of Liara. Not having her present would be just as jarring as Miranda's seeming absence for certain developments. There are two major plots that cry out for her commentary. I'll miss Miranda, and there will be wistful sighs every time I talk to Liara on the SR-2, but I can't begrudge Liara her narrative role.

[CptData]

Ieldra2 wrote...

At this point, it appears very unlikely that she'll be on Shepard's team. Consequently, there will be very little interaction between her and Ashley, which is a shame, really. I was so much looking forward to their banter. I can't really believe we'll get nothing, though. After all, they're the two most important females in the whole trilogy.
I guess it's still possible she'll make a Legion-like late entry into the team, which would be very narratively appropriate, but I wouldn't count on it.

BTW, I'd also like to know what the current state of things is regarding treatment of the VS. Can you point me to a relevant topic in a spoiler group or send a PM?

Just ask what you want via PM. My "spoilers" are not up-to-date, but I've got enough stuff to tell you what you need regarding the VS.

I'm not sure if Miranda is as significant as Liara, but VS and Miranda seems to be pretty much even. VS was important for ME1, Miranda is - at least that's my interpretation - eyes and ears of TIM, his political officer and XO of the Normandy.

Modifié par CptData, 05 décembre 2011 - 03:12 .

[The Elder King]

jtav wrote...

spoiler: VS has the observation deck.

I'm over my resentment of Liara. Not having her present would be just as jarring as Miranda's seeming absence for certain developments. There are two major plots that cry out for her commentary. I'll miss Miranda, and there will be wistful sighs every time I talk to Liara on the SR-2, but I can't begrudge Liara her narrative role.

My only problem with her presence in the squad is that, with her role, she could've been outside, to free a space on the squad for a ME2 squadmate (not necessarily Miranda. Mordin, Legion, Jack, or even Grunt would've been fine).
The same reason, if not worse, with Tali (if I remember well the info from the script), especially becuase she wasn't present in the squad, but Bioware decides to change in fear of the reaction of the fanbase. Which is bad. They've already decided the squad, they shouldn't change it only because they saw the reaction of the fanbase. I wonder who was the new or old squadmate that was to be in her place.
Anyway, it's useless to complain now. There are far more important thing for me in the game than the squadmate. And from the script, I could be satisfied with Miranda's role in ME3, if they'll add a bit more.

Modifié par hhh89, 05 décembre 2011 - 03:17 .

[CrutchCricket]

Though I get the feeling this may open a can of worms similar to the Collector Base argument I will say that allowing the council to die is the correct pragmatic decision. That depends of course on how you do it. You can tell the fleet to focus on Sovereign or you can tell them to hold back and let the Destiny's Ascension bite the dust simply because you're just a dick. I always pick the first option. If the DA is keeping the geth busy, you better believe all of my ships are going for Sovereign.
As for Liara, I'm not sure two years is enough for her to get all those levels in badass that she does but I find it odd that people are questioning her data mining/handling ability. I see no reason why she wouldn't make a good information broker given her past profession at least in terms of acquiring/distributing information.
Strangely, none of this is about Miranda... but I do see the two of them working together fairly often when all this is finished.

[naledgeborn]

@ Crutch

Oddly enough I always liked the Paragon ending in ME1 because it kind of handicaps the Alliance's ascension to top dog. With the council dead humanity went from nobody's to the ruling race of the galaxy in less than 50 years. That's just "humanity is special" bs IMO.

And Liara being SB is an unquestionable act of character assassination. Acquiring intelligence/supplying counter-intelligence couldn't be more different than archaeology. That's like getting Indiana Jones (at his very ****ing best) and then saying hey you just cross-trained and you're our new James Bond. It's sloppy. With out the SB story arc Liara would be completely irrelevant to plot and because she's Mac Walters' favorite LI that can't happen.

[The Elder King]

CrutchCricket wrote...

 I see no reason why she wouldn't make a good information broker given her past profession at least in terms of acquiring/distributing information.
.

I don't think I could agree with that. I'd say that the two work (archeologist and broker) are a lot different. As an archeologist Liara worked directly to find information about the Prothean. As a broker (and the SB) the iformation are gathered by her agents. Her work is to find, buy and sell informations. Plus, you have a lot more contact with people, and Liara in ME seemed more of an introverse and timid person, who find difficult to talk with people, while in ME2 she seems more capable. Of course, a person may change during the years, but in general the personality don't change much after you're an adult, and she was already and adult in ME.
If we're talking stricly about ME2, though, I find her the one with the best ability to run a organization like the one under the control of the SB, with one exception that I've already said.

[MassStorm]

LOL Liara is so strong that even in the thread where people should speak about Miranda they end up speaking about Liara.

[Xilizhra]

There is no character assassination, just insufficiently seen development because the comic wasn't that good.

I'm also not sure how Liara getting Miranda's office is a "slight." Liara needs the space for all of her computer equipment.

[The Elder King]

MassStorm wrote...

LOL Liara is so strong that even in the thread where people should speak about Miranda they end up speaking about Liara.

Her plot armor is indeed one of the strongest I've ever seen in a VG:P

[naledgeborn]

MassStorm wrote...

LOL Liara is so strong that even in the thread where people should speak about Miranda they end up speaking about Liara.

And you're thread is so lame you have to jump into Miranda's to get some exciting conversation. 

Modifié par naledgeborn, 05 décembre 2011 - 03:37 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
As for Liara, I'm not sure two years is enough for her to get all those levels in badass that she does but I find it odd that people are questioning her data mining/handling ability. I see no reason why she wouldn't make a good information broker given her past profession at least in terms of acquiring/distributing information.

I'm pretty much indifferent to the whole thing, tbh. It's a very blatant example of a character being plot-driven, rather than the plot being character-driven, but whatever, there are meta-game reasons for it. Same for Garrus suddenly being massively important in ME3, whereas he's basically a nobody up until that point.

Not sure I'd call it character assassination in Liara's case, more like character incoherence. There's nothing at all about Liara's character, as originally presented in ME1, that would suggest a connection with the SB or any taste at all for the type of work involved (or, for that matter, capacity for it). Being a scientist/archeologist has nothing to do with intelligence work, and being really smart doesn't make one good at just anything overnight (outside of fiction).

Where it would start to matter, and where it starts to get relevant to Miranda, is if the writers do the opposite with her. They don't need to leverage her into an important position, she's already there, all they have to do is exploit it. So, if, instead of exploiting it, or building a new plot-relevant role for her, the devs marginalize the character, then that would be something I have issues with.

[Xilizhra]

naledgeborn wrote...

MassStorm wrote...

LOL Liara is so strong that even in the thread where people should speak about Miranda they end up speaking about Liara.

And you're thread is so lame you have to jump into Miranda's to get some exciting conversation. 

To get dramatic conversation, at any rate. The Liara thread is highly lacking in drama.

[jtav]

Just a thought: maybe we should knock it off with the Liara bashing? Some of us still do like both women. I still ship them. Miranda getting a vastly smaller role doesn't change that.

[naledgeborn]

Xilizhra wrote...

To get dramatic conversation, at any rate. The Liara thread is highly lacking in drama.

As monotone and boring as the character I'm sure.

[CrutchCricket]

The political ramifications of the decision only occur after it has been made and would have no bearing on the decision itself (at least not to my Shepard who doesn't really give a damn who's running things as long as the objective is achieved). He made a tactical decision and it was the best one to make in that battle.

As for Liara I think there is some common ground in methodology between gathering intel and archeology. By itself one doesn't make her an expert in the other. But she's also fairly young for an asari yet still brilliant and capable (ME1 social awkwardness aside). Isn't it stated that she's some kind of prodigy?

[flemm]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

You should have seen this thread's anti-Tali explosion last week. Now that was something.

There wasn't one. If anything, there was a spate of trolling on the part of some Tali fans, nothing more.

[CptData]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is no character assassination, just insufficiently seen development because the comic wasn't that good.

I'm also not sure how Liara getting Miranda's office is a "slight." Liara needs the space for all of her computer equipment.

Gimme 2 months and I'll write you a working story why Liara became the SB
Gimme another 2 months and I'll write a story that gives Miranda a proper background (far more than just "daddy issues" and "I'm genetically perfect".
And gimme a full year and I rewrite you ME1, ME2 and ME3 so it works.

Seriously ... some issues in the ME series could have been avoided so easily. One thing irks me most: lack of proper character development in ME2. Some got really good development, others feel incomplete. Miranda is one of the better examples, however, I wished the devs had added more background to her. Especially her years before Cerberus. If she had a lover before Shepard ... you name it.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is no character assassination, just insufficiently seen development because the comic wasn't that good.

I'm also not sure how Liara getting Miranda's office is a "slight." Liara needs the space for all of her computer equipment.

Agreed. And without Miranda it was obvious that someone would have taken the office.
About the character assassination, I have to say that it shouldn'be the role of the comic to develop some characters of the game (maybe some minor characters, like Anderson, that hasn't a lot of space on the game, not a squadmate like Liara). The problem for me is that I don't find this type of character development/assassination necessary for Liara.