82210 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
FWIW, I agree with you here. I can interpret the scenario differently, but I cannot justify saving the Council without adding to the scenario. Nonetheless, my main Shepard has saved them for metagame reasons. Should I get a better story with a dead Council, I'll replay him from the end of ME1.

Somehow I knew you would;).  I see myself going down the same argument paths as you might for the Collector Base. I think difference in interpretation accounts for a good chunk of difference in our opinions on these things.

naledgeborn: I see your point about spotting inconsistencies. But the advanced tech had to change the intelligence game somewhat. I'm thinking of the Shadow Broker VI. I think it and similar programs are employed by brokers to help them sift through all the data for what you're saying. After all inconsistencies don't just run the risk of a coup. If you're selling bad intel, you won't be selling it for long. But given the extent of the Shadow Broker and even Liara's network before she took over, I doubt she combs through all of that personally.

[CptData]

flemm wrote...

I agree that a smaller roster would have been better. However, I think that's a separate question than character development. It's true that Thane isn't relevant to ME2's plot, but was Garrus relevant to that of ME1? Not that I recall, in fact I don't think you even need to recruit him, nothing changes.

Never said Garrus was relevant for ME1 plot. You can do ME1 without Garrus and Wrex and you can recruit Liara after doing Virmire. Means: you can play most parts of the game with Tali, Kaidan and Ashley - they all have a role. Liara is used only for the "mindmelt stuff" so Shepard learns about Ilos. That's basically her only contribution to the story. Same for Tali: her only real contribution to the story was presenting the evidence of Saren's deeds.

Basically, none of the characters in ME1 where that essential except both human characters from beginning to Virmire.

And yes, I think you need some non-story-relevant characters in a squad - but do you need 8 guys without any impact on the story?

[flemm]

CptData wrote...

Basically, none of the characters in ME1 where that essential except both human characters from beginning to Virmire.

And yes, I think you need some non-story-relevant characters in a squad - but do you need 8 guys without any impact on the story?

Well, I agree that there were too many characters, but that is a separate issue from character development, as is plot-relevance. The ME2 characters have at least as much depth as the ME1 characters. In many cases, they have more (though Tali and Garrus also benefit from additional development in ME2). Where ME2 gets into trouble is spending too much time on developing lots of characters instead of balancing character and story. But the character development itself is really strong overall.

That's why ME2 is a Game of the Year type of product despite its fairly weak story. It's basically all character development + the Suicide Mission. The game gets away with it precisely because the character development is so good.

Modifié par flemm, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:33 .

[AresXX7]

Personally, I find it ironic how little of a role Miranda is given in ME3.
Seeing the route Cerberus is taking, in the third installment, you'd think she would be an invaluable asset/ally to have at Shepard's side.
Unless Cerberus is just replacing the mercs/Collectors as nothing more than shooting targets in the game.
Even so, one might think she could provide some key tactical advice with their 'new' toys.

There has to be some sort of confrontation with TIM, who better to have on the team, then someone who can provide detail information? (such as possible traps, defenses, a way to locate his base, etc.)

Not to mention, Miranda could very well have a way to access crucial info on some of the Reaper tech salvaged/used by Cerberus (i.e. how EDI was constructed, etc.), that might provide useful insight on stopping the Reapers, that a common outsider couldn't acquire.
 
And, should Shepard's cybernetic implants cause a weakness, of some sort, (similar to what happened in Overlord) she might be the best chance for a counter-measure. (since she oversaw the Lazarus Project from start to finish)


Just some thoughts that were rolling around in my head, nothing more.

[Ieldra]

@AresXX7:
Ironic? That doesn't begin to describe it. If there was ever an old team member who should get prime screen time in ME3 given the setup, it's Miranda. More than any other, really. Instead, we get....a nobody like Garrus? WTF? Don't remind me of that.....I could explode.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[naledgeborn]

You're on the money Ares, but the way the wind is blowing I think BW is intent on bastardizing Miranda from ME2 and giving us something completely different with very little significance. I'd like to emphasize bastardization here because there really is no better word for it.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@AresXX7:
Ironic? That doesn't begin to describe it. If there was ever an old team member who should get primary screen time in ME3 given the setup, it's Miranda. More than any other, really.

This. It's essential and makes sense for Miri to have lots of screen time. Cerberus is a primary antagonist in ME3. Resigned or not, Miri will still be involved in trying to stop Cerberus

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 05 décembre 2011 - 04:42 .

[CptData]

flemm wrote...

CptData wrote...

Basically, none of the characters in ME1 where that essential except both human characters from beginning to Virmire.

And yes, I think you need some non-story-relevant characters in a squad - but do you need 8 guys without any impact on the story?

Well, I agree that there were too many characters, but that is a separate issue from character development, as is plot-relevance. The ME2 characters have at least as much depth as the ME1 characters. In many cases, they have more (though Tali and Garrus also benefit from additional development in ME2). Where ME2 gets into trouble is spending too much time on developing lots of characters instead of balancing character and story. But the character development itself is really strong overall.

That's why ME2 is a Game of the Year type of product despite its fairly weak story. It's basically all character development + the Suicide Mission. The game gets away with it precisely because the character development is so good.

I think we're both hitting the same door. ME2 came with a lot of good & new stuff, however, I think BW should have used time & money more on the story than on additional characters you don't really need. As I said, some of them are pretty much extras and the resources spent on them could have been used for other stuff. For example like a reappearance of the VS. Or instead of a single LM for the characters on a short story arc of multiple missions which are more or less tied to the main story arc and deeper development.

Sure, in ME1 most of the character development happened through dialogues. Garrus had some kind of "LM" and so had Wrex. In ME2 you had some character development through recruiting missions PLUS loyalty missions PLUS dialogues and PLUS SB dossiers. That's fine and works pretty well. Still, some characters feel as if they consist only of their current state plus one big event in their past that pretty much defines their current appearance and behavior. Dunno why, but that hardly makes a believeable character, no one is defined by one major event.

Okay, I should stop now - don't wanna hijack Miri's thread even longer.

[flemm]

CptData wrote...
Sure, in ME1 most of the character development happened through dialogues.

Yeah, just different ways of looking at the same basic issue.

[TomY90]

CptData wrote...

flemm wrote...

CptData wrote...

Basically, none of the characters in ME1 where that essential except both human characters from beginning to Virmire.

And yes, I think you need some non-story-relevant characters in a squad - but do you need 8 guys without any impact on the story?

Well, I agree that there were too many characters, but that is a separate issue from character development, as is plot-relevance. The ME2 characters have at least as much depth as the ME1 characters. In many cases, they have more (though Tali and Garrus also benefit from additional development in ME2). Where ME2 gets into trouble is spending too much time on developing lots of characters instead of balancing character and story. But the character development itself is really strong overall.

That's why ME2 is a Game of the Year type of product despite its fairly weak story. It's basically all character development + the Suicide Mission. The game gets away with it precisely because the character development is so good.

I think we're both hitting the same door. ME2 came with a lot of good & new stuff, however, I think BW should have used time & money more on the story than on additional characters you don't really need. As I said, some of them are pretty much extras and the resources spent on them could have been used for other stuff. For example like a reappearance of the VS. Or instead of a single LM for the characters on a short story arc of multiple missions which are more or less tied to the main story arc and deeper development.

Sure, in ME1 most of the character development happened through dialogues. Garrus had some kind of "LM" and so had Wrex. In ME2 you had some character development through recruiting missions PLUS loyalty missions PLUS dialogues and PLUS SB dossiers. That's fine and works pretty well. Still, some characters feel as if they consist only of their current state plus one big event in their past that pretty much defines their current appearance and behavior. Dunno why, but that hardly makes a believeable character, no one is defined by one major event.

Okay, I should stop now - don't wanna hijack Miri's thread even longer.

you are right pretty much they did do very different ways of developing a characters story.

I would say ME1 went for more of a realistic character development which was talking to them and getting to know them. Which there conversations did get close to 15 minutes long which is granted shorter than in real life conversations but a lot longer than we would see in films or most games.

Whereas ME2 went for the cinematic approach considering most films do not have conversations that long, probably like a 5 minute conversation at best then they do something interesting then conversation again after something interesting etc.

you can tell this by having them walking around the areas they are talking, sitting down, leaning onto something and some 'interesting' camera angles (i.e. on miranda behind lol)

Modifié par TomY90, 05 décembre 2011 - 07:37 .

[Mathias]

I think the SM really screwed things up for ME3. Miranda for sure would've had a much bigger role.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 05 décembre 2011 - 07:45 .

[The Elder King]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

I think the SM really screwed things up for ME3. Miranda for sure would've had a much bigger role.

QFT. I'd have preferred to have no death options, or some scripted death options (between two squadmates).

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Just a thought: maybe we should knock it off with the Liara bashing? Some of us still do like both women. I still ship them. Miranda getting a vastly smaller role doesn't change that.

Knock off bashing is OK with me. But I don't have the praise the character and ignore that what was done with her was contrived to keep her in, while what was done with Miranda was contrived to keep her out. Not that the results cannot be good either way. Theoretically - we'll see. But I still resent it until I see on my screen that Miranda hasn't suffered from it.

I don't believe Liara suffered any contrivances to keep her in. She's one of only three squadmates (admittedly including DLC) to be on the team for both earlier games, and I can't imagine she'd really want to not stay close to Shepard to ensure that she doesn't die this time. In any case, the location of the Hagalaz base was compromised by Cerberus, so she'd have to leave anyway when Cerberus turned on the galaxy. Not only that, she'd probably need to stay mobile because people would likely be after her head. When you factor in the Normandy's excellent (AI) computer system, there's no reason for her to not be on the Normandy.

[CrutchCricket]

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't believe Liara suffered any contrivances to keep her in. She's one of only three squadmates (admittedly including DLC) to be on the team for both earlier games, and I can't imagine she'd really want to not stay close to Shepard to ensure that she doesn't die this time. In any case, the location of the Hagalaz base was compromised by Cerberus, so she'd have to leave anyway when Cerberus turned on the galaxy. Not only that, she'd probably need to stay mobile because people would likely be after her head. When you factor in the Normandy's excellent (AI) computer system, there's no reason for her to not be on the Normandy.

Being mobile does not necessarily mean being on the Normandy. I like that she's back but I hope she doesn't lose the Shadow Broker ship. That thing was awesome.

[Xilizhra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't believe Liara suffered any contrivances to keep her in. She's one of only three squadmates (admittedly including DLC) to be on the team for both earlier games, and I can't imagine she'd really want to not stay close to Shepard to ensure that she doesn't die this time. In any case, the location of the Hagalaz base was compromised by Cerberus, so she'd have to leave anyway when Cerberus turned on the galaxy. Not only that, she'd probably need to stay mobile because people would likely be after her head. When you factor in the Normandy's excellent (AI) computer system, there's no reason for her to not be on the Normandy.

Being mobile does not necessarily mean being on the Normandy. I like that she's back but I hope she doesn't lose the Shadow Broker ship. That thing was awesome.

It was designed to operate in, and seemingly be powered by, Hagalaz's perpetual storm. I don't even know if it's space-capable.

However, this probably needs its own thread.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 05 décembre 2011 - 08:20 .

[MisterJB]

I agree with Ares. Except that I replace the word "ironic" with "inexplicable and inexcusable travesty"
 

MassStorm wrote...
Liara is so strong that even in the thread where people should speak about Miranda they end up speaking about Liara.

A bit hard not to. I try to play ME1 AAAHHH OBLIGATORY MIND-MELDING! I skip to ME2 AAAHHH OBLIGATORY HUG! I try to read Redemption because Miranda is in it AAAHHH LIARA IS THE MAIN CHARACTER!

Teacher's pet.

CptData wrote...
 Still, some characters feel as if they consist only of their current state plus one big event in their past that pretty much defines their current appearance and behavior. Dunno why, but that hardly makes a believeable character, no one is defined by one major event.

And how is that different from what we saw in ME1?
Ashley was trying to bring honor to her family name.
Wrex was betrayed by his father.
Garrus spent his entire life trying to please his.
Tali...hun. She's a quarian.

Every character has had a major event that defines most of their outlook. It's the little nuances and details that make each character unique. Miranda's pragmatism, Thane's philosophy, Ashley's love for poetry, etc.

[flemm]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

I think the SM really screwed things up for ME3. Miranda for sure would've had a much bigger role.

Well, the Suicide Mission was doubtless a poor design choice for a number of reasons.

That said, the leaked script (and almost certainly the game) will show that a *might be dead* character can still be important, and even have her/his importance increased with respect to the prior game, with a lot of screen time, presence on the squad, and everything else. So, if Miranda is sidelined in the final product, it will have occured simply because the devs felt like sidelining her, and for no other reason.

Modifié par flemm, 05 décembre 2011 - 08:50 .

[Ryzaki]

The mindmelding is fine because Shiara (or however you spell her name) does something similar so whatever.

It's the hug that bothers me. I don't like forced friendships in general and the complete lack of a 'WTF WHERE YOU THINKING?!?' from Shep about Liara handing his body over to Cerberus was meh. He had one line that's quieted by her "What was I supposed to do leave my friend dead?" Yes Liara. Leave him dead and move on. That's *exactly* what you were supposed to do.

And yes Shep wouldn't be alive without her. All Sheps will not see that as a good thing. Mine don't.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 décembre 2011 - 08:52 .

[CrutchCricket]

Shepard CAN call her out on it. Mind you the convo sucks either way but you're not forced to just ignore how she brought you back. I don't agree with you about preferring to stay dead but that's just personal opinion.

[Ryzaki]

thus the one line remark. That's not calling someone out.That's Shep trying to start an arguement only to act like Liara had some master logic that shut him down.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:14 .

[Ryzaki]

DP

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:14 .

[CrutchCricket]

I think that even if you roleplay like you hate her, if she tells you "I did what I had to to bring you back" you won't really argue with her past a certain point. It could've been better though.

[Ryzaki]

CrutchCricket wrote...

I think that even if you roleplay like you hate her, if she tells you "I did what I had to to bring you back" you won't really argue with her past a certain point. It could've been better though.

My Shep doesn't hate her though. He just doesn't like her deciding what was right for his life. She had no right to do that in his eyes.

And yeah it could've been a lot better. Shep could've acted less like a child scolded by his mother. I have the same issue with the LOTSB DLC.

[Dr. Doctor]

flemm wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

I think the SM really screwed things up for ME3. Miranda for sure would've had a much bigger role.

Well, the Suicide Mission was doubtless a poor design choice for a number of reasons.

That said, the leaked script (and almost certainly the game) will show that a *might be dead* character can still be important, and even have her/his importance increased with respect to the prior game, with a lot of screen time, presence on the squad, and everything else. So, if Miranda is sidelined in the final product, it will have occured simply because the devs felt like sidelining her, and for no other reason.

The issue with the SM is that I seriously get the feeling that this is going to happen:

Shepard: Who are you?

Character: I'm the generic replacement character for *insert party member name here*. I have no discerable character traits other than being the person who advances the story so you can finish this mission.

Shepard: But I was told that losing people on the Suicide Mission would have an impact on the story!

Character: Well I'm sorry to disappoint you friend, but I'm that impact. Maybe if you go back and get through the Suicide Mission without losing *insert party member name here*  you'd enjoy the story more.

Shepard: But what about having the ability to choose my own path in this series?

Character: Oh, there are choices, you just chose poorly.

[TomY90]

Ryzaki wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

I think that even if you roleplay like you hate her, if she tells you "I did what I had to to bring you back" you won't really argue with her past a certain point. It could've been better though.

My Shep doesn't hate her though. He just doesn't like her deciding what was right for his life. She had no right to do that in his eyes.

And yeah it could've been a lot better. Shep could've acted less like a child scolded by his mother. I have the same issue with the LOTSB DLC.

if you recall it was the illusive man who decided to do that when he said 'see to it at any cost' and ordered Miranda to bring shepard back.

so she was just following orders, she was just determined to not to fail because she never wants to fail at what she does.

so in reality it shouldnt be Miranda shepard should get unhappy with she was just following orders it is Liara and the illusive man if shepard is to get cross with shepard should do. because Liara supplied the body and TIM got the technology, man power and gave the order to do so.

Modifié par TomY90, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:35 .