82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr. Doctor]

flemm wrote...

The player is encouraged to identify with the lead character, so, creating a situation where that character gets dumped or rejected a lot isn't really going to lead to successful game design. This is a big difference from a movie or tv series, where the viewer isn't self-inserting to the same degree. You might be upset on behalf of character X if character Y rejects him/her, but you're not likely to feel personally rejected.

And then you have the whole "it's your story" consideration. If the player is automatically rejected or dissed or whatever, then that makes the player feel powerless, when the whole point is to make the player feel influential and powerful. You could offer the player the choice to be rejected, I guess, for story-telling purposes, but how popular would that be?

The attempted romance with Samara in ME2 was essentially a rejection, but it was well written. Rejection or failure shouldn't be a constant companion in-game but I want there to be some place where Shepard can't succeed.

Take Dragon Age 2 for instance, Hawke is able to flee the destruction of his home, and eventually becomes Champion of Kirkwall. However for each success Hawke has there's always a sacrifice (losing a sibiling, his mother, etc.). Even at the end of the game Hawke realizes that he could have stopped the events that happened in the end of the game.

Meanwhile Shepard can somehow bludgeon through a Suicide Mission without losing any member of his squad because the game treats him like he's the bloddy Space Messiah. While playing the hero is fun I'd rather have the oppertunity to fail every now and then, I want an unwinnable scenario that shows us that Shepard is fallable and not some action hero from an 80's movie.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...
And I hate feeling like a disloyal fan just because I like characters who both are and aren't on the squad.

You're not disloyal and such a thing should never be suggested. At no point is this character hate and "drawing lines in the sand" thing acceptable. Yet people do it anyway out of the worst qualities of being a fan.

That being said I seem to remember you as one of the first I saw on here expressing a wish to kill Tali/Garrus because you weren't happy with Miranda's situation. That's not helping. You can and should like whatever character you wish. Hating on a character in any form however, can only end badly.

[naledgeborn]

jtav wrote...

For the moment, I'm planning on sticking with Matt. But I'm increasingly uncomfortable here. Rage is pointless. I'm very upset with Miranda's role, but there's no conspiracy against her. And I hate feeling like a disloyal fan just because I like characters who both are and aren't on the squad.

I have nothing against Liara or her fans...except Xilizhra . If anything I resent the writers (looking at you Mac, I know you're the Liara fanboy) for heavily implying that Liara is the "correct" love interest. And the implacations are so damn heavy that it not only distorts the credibility of her individual story arc, but it's gushing through into "Critical Path" territory.  Her fanbase is just seeing what they want and I don't blame them. If Miranda were implied to be the canonical love interest and had chunks of the main story warped to make her more important I'd probably be acting smug too.

Just my 2 pennies jtav. 

[ubermensch007]

@Ryzaki:

More than that; Paragon Shep acts like he's Jack's personal slave almost, with how deferential he is to her.Like when you go down to talk to her about her Loyalty Mission: Paragon Shep says, "I'll listen to anything you have to say Jack."  

Renegade Shepard says, "Were busy.Get to the point!"  

At first I was pretty Paragony with Jack too.But eventually after seeing how she was reacting to it.Just eating up all the attention that Shep was giving her.I decided to give Jack some tough love.I got alot of love for Jack though.My Shep is never a douche bag to her or anything.But she knows that Shep doesn't back down to anyone.Not even uber powerful biotic gods

Modifié par ubermensch007, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:49 .

[flemm]

Well, re: Miranda/Jack, the original conversation a while back was about whether or not the game cutting off the romance with Miranda, if you side with Jack, was justified, with one point of view being that siding with Jack there amounted to the type of betrayal that could easily end a budding romantic relationship, and the other argument being that it was just a disagreement that shouldn't have that type of consequence.

From that point of view, what Shep says in private to Jack, or what his intentions might be from a roleplay perspective aren't all that relevant. The question is more how it would look from Miranda's perspective: all she's really seen is Shepard either cave in or pretend to cave in about the Cerberus data, then side with Jack again in a situation where Jack is at least as much in the wrong as Miranda and threatening to kill her.

So, the point was more how Shep's behavior would likely come across to Miranda by that point (cowardly), rather than Shep's behavior necessarily being cowardly in the absolute sense.

Modifié par flemm, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:47 .

[The Elder King]

jtav wrote...

For the moment, I'm planning on sticking with Matt. But I'm increasingly uncomfortable here. Rage is pointless. I'm very upset with Miranda's role, but there's no conspiracy against her. And I hate feeling like a disloyal fan just because I like characters who both are and aren't on the squad.

I wouldn't worry if I were you.  I like most of ME and ME2 squadmates (I have no particular feelings for Jacob and Morinth, but I like all of the others), so I don't have any particular problems with the squad (though I'd prefer if they have made a mixed squad, and I still thinks that Tali and Liara shoud've been outside of the squad with their role).
It's sad for me to not having Legion, Mordin and Miranda in the squad, but it was the same for me in ME2 without Wrex and Kaidan.

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
So, the point was more how Shep's behavior would likely come across to Miranda by that point (cowardly), rather than Shep's behavior necessarily being cowardly in the absolute sense.

Well... there's a chance Miranda could interpret it as cowardly. There's also a chance she could see it for what it really is. That's what I'm arguing. But I don't feel like getting into it now. Just completing the overview.

[Ryzaki]

ubermensch007 wrote...

@Ryzaki:

More than that; Paragon Shep acts like he's Jack's personal slave almost, with how deferential he is to her.Like when you go down to talk to her about her Loyalty Mission: Paragon Shep says, "I'll listen to anything you have to say Jack."  

Renegade Shepard says, "Were busy.Get to the point!"  

At first I was pretty Paragony with Jack too.But eventually after seeing how she was reacting to it.Just eating up all the attention that Shep was giving her.I decided to give Jack some tough love.I got alot of love for Jack though.My Shep is never a douche bag to her or anything.But she knows that Shep doesn't back down to anyone.Not even uber powerful biotic gods

Eh it doesn't matter how my paragon shep treats her in the long run.

But yeah paragon Shep acts like a doormat around Jack it's pretty bad.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
For the moment, I'm planning on sticking with Matt. But I'm increasingly uncomfortable here. Rage is pointless. I'm very upset with Miranda's role, but there's no conspiracy against her. And I hate feeling like a disloyal fan just because I like characters who both are and aren't on the squad.

I won't bring the Liara discussion up by myself and I won't bring it to this thread. But don't expect me to keep silent if anyone else does.

BTW, isn't it strange how we appear to get along with Ashley's and Kaidan's fanbase? I was just reminded of this when you mentioned liking several characters. I'd likely get uncomfortable if someone attacked Ashley or Kaidan but people here rarely do. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 décembre 2011 - 09:02 .

[ubermensch007]

flemm wrote...

Well, re: Miranda/Jack, the original conversation a while back was about whether or not the game cutting off the romance with Miranda, if you side with Jack, was justified, with one point of view being that siding with Jack there amounted to the type of betrayal that could easily end a budding romantic relationship, and the other argument being that it was just a disagreement that shouldn't have that type of consequence.

From that point of view, what Shep says in private to Jack, or what his intentions might be from a roleplay perspective aren't all that relevant. The question is more how it would look from Miranda's perspective: all she's really seen is Shepard either cave in or pretend to cave in about the Cerberus data, then side with Jack again in a situation where Jack is at least as much in the wrong as Miranda and threatening to kill her.

So, the point was more how Shep's behavior would likely come across to Miranda by that point (cowardly), rather than Shep's behavior necessarily being cowardly in the absolute sense.

Well, I'll agree with you this much flemm.I'm not a big fan of what Shepard says to Miranda either Paragon or Rengade Option; to at least regain her loyalty their.The whole "Be the better woman." option or 'Whatever the renegade sentence says.' To me Shepard comes across as looking incredibly manipulative, and that's not how I raised my Commander Shepard to behave.  I totally agreed with what Shep said to Miranda about how Jack's doing just fine and Miri needs to take a look at her own attitude.But I am not as impressed with what Shep says to make amends with Ms.Lawson.That's why sometimes I just let Miranda sulk for the rest of the game.On one of my playthroughs that bad attitude of hers got her killed during the Suicide Mission and I was shocked.But it was a good death.My Shepard didn't have the approrpiate amount of paragon or rengade points to get back her loyalty.But I was still good to her, during the final leg of the Suicide Mission Shep even saved her life, when she was falling off the platform.But the debri that hit them killed her, but Jack was with me and she survived.

This is actually one of my favorite playthroughs.Its tragic really.Even though Orianna was now in Mioranda's life.She let her feelings towards Jack and me distract her to the point of getting her killed during the Suicide Mission.She must sort of hate herself for that. That's why: QWhatever goes down in ME3. I do hope BioWare let's Shepard pay his or her condoloces to Orianna and others who may have lost loved ones, that were under Shepard's command.Because that could be some really dramatic content.After I lost Miranda and returned to the Normandy.I read Orianna's email.And it almost made me wept.That I couldn't keep my promise to her, and make sure that her big sister came back alive.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
For the moment, I'm planning on sticking with Matt. But I'm increasingly uncomfortable here. Rage is pointless. I'm very upset with Miranda's role, but there's no conspiracy against her. And I hate feeling like a disloyal fan just because I like characters who both are and aren't on the squad.

Well, making comparisons between how various characters are implemented is inevitable, because it's relevant and useful as a measuring stick. It's got nothing to do with the other characters per se, or with the fans of those characters, as far as I'm concerned.

Different people will react differently, and sometimes frustrations will boil over, that's just the way it is.

But none of it will be directed at you, jtav, or your stories

Dr. Doctor wrote...
 While playing the hero is fun I'd rather
have the oppertunity to fail every now and then, I want an unwinnable
scenario that shows us that Shepard is fallable and not some action hero
from an 80's movie.

I'm not arguing against that and I certainly agree, that in certain ways, a game can include that type of scenario. But, as a general rule, making a player feel rejected isn't going to be the hallmark of a successful game of this type, I don't think.

Modifié par flemm, 06 décembre 2011 - 09:07 .

[ubermensch007]

Ryzaki wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

@Ryzaki:

More than that; Paragon Shep acts like he's Jack's personal slave almost, with how deferential he is to her.Like when you go down to talk to her about her Loyalty Mission: Paragon Shep says, "I'll listen to anything you have to say Jack."  

Renegade Shepard says, "Were busy.Get to the point!"  

At first I was pretty Paragony with Jack too.But eventually after seeing how she was reacting to it.Just eating up all the attention that Shep was giving her.I decided to give Jack some tough love.I got alot of love for Jack though.My Shep is never a douche bag to her or anything.But she knows that Shep doesn't back down to anyone.Not even uber powerful biotic gods

Eh it doesn't matter how my paragon shep treats her in the long run.

But yeah paragon Shep acts like a doormat around Jack it's pretty bad.

I don't knbow Ryzaki, that sort of thing does matter to me.Like take Zaeed Loyalty Mission for example.That's another case where I felt Shepard can sort of let himself be bullied by one the characters he is recruiting.When Zaeed says,"If Vito get's away.I'm blaming you." And acts all like Commander Shepard couldn't complete the Suicide Mission, unless Zaeed Masani was a part of it.  The first time I played Zaeed LM.After hearing him say that, I was like N#!*er please  And I think it is clear with what the Paragon Sentence says, that Shepard wasn't about to let Zaeed make a punk out of him.Now I can see how some can decide to take out Vido Santiago instead of saving the innocent workers at the Refinery.But what BioWare has Renegade Shep say to Zaeed after he talks to Shepard like that, just makes Shepard look like he's Zaeed's b!tch...

What does Shepard say - something like,"Zaeed is right.Vido needs to die." And Zaeed says, "Glad you see things my way."

My Commander Shepard is nobody's b!tch.

[jtav]

If we're talking about romance-killers, the most damning lines occur after the romance is consummated. Choose a bad first fire team leader. Miranda will make disparaging comments. You can assert your authority in a very nasty way, and it's clear neither respects the other. Were it mechanically possible, you should lose loyalty there.

[Ryzaki]

ubermensch007 wrote...
I don't knbow Ryzaki, that sort of thing does matter to me.Like take Zaeed Loyalty Mission for example.That's another case where I felt Shepard can sort of let himself be bullied by one the characters he is recruiting.When Zaeed says,"If Vito get's away.I'm blaming you." And acts all like Commander Shepard couldn't complete the Suicide Mission, unless Zaeed Masani was a part of it.  The first time I played Zaeed LM.After hearing him say that, I was like N#!*er please  And I think it is clear with what the Paragon Sentence says, that Shepard wasn't about to let Zaeed make a punk out of him.Now I can see how some can decide to take out Vido Santiago instead of saving the innocent workers at the Refinery.But what BioWare has Renegade Shep say to Zaeed after he talks to Shepard like that, just makes Shepard look like he's Zaeed's b!tch...

What does Shepard say - something like,"Zaeed is right.Vido needs to die." And Zaeed says, "Glad you see things my way."

My Commander Shepardis nobody's b!tch.

My Shep doesn't really care about that sort of thing. If them thinking he's a push over means they decide to be just a little slow and he gets and advantage? heck yes. Plus paragon Shep punching Zaeed is win.

[ubermensch007]

@jtav:

And suddenly I am reminded of what Kaidan says to Shepard about how he has to believe that the Alliance can tell the difference when our allies disagree with us and are not hostile towards us.

I don't think that Shep and Miri would have broken up over their row while planning the Suicide Mission.If anything Miranda should have apologized, for while she may have never been military.She should damn well know that disagreeing with her Commanding Officer (especially in such a disrespectfukl manner) in front of everyone else like that; was really bad form... But hey, Miranda's mouth getting her into trouble is nothing new.

Ryzaki wrote... My Shep doesn't really care about that sort of thing. If them thinking he's a push over means they decide to be just a little slow and he gets and advantage? heck yes. Plus paragon Shep punching Zaeed is win.

 
Well, yeah... Paragon Shepard is the one who acts like he has a pair, with Zaeed.Renegade Shep acts like he needs to grow a pair. 

Modifié par ubermensch007, 06 décembre 2011 - 09:25 .

[The Elder King]

jtav wrote...

If we're talking about romance-killers, the most damning lines occur after the romance is consummated. Choose a bad first fire team leader. Miranda will make disparaging comments. You can assert your authority in a very nasty way, and it's clear neither respects the other. Were it mechanically possible, you should lose loyalty there.

Interesting choice if I'll do a Cerberus-hater (probably a Sole Survivor, if I ever manage to roleplay one in ME2). Though I think a person should've to be blind to choose a bad team leader, since there are heavy hints in the game of at least two squadmates you have to choose as a team leader in the SM. But it's not like the SM was that hard to complete without killing someone. (sorry guys, I really hated how easy the SM was)

Modifié par hhh89, 06 décembre 2011 - 09:18 .

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

If we're talking about romance-killers, the most damning lines occur after the romance is consummated. Choose a bad first fire team leader. Miranda will make disparaging comments. You can assert your authority in a very nasty way, and it's clear neither respects the other. Were it mechanically possible, you should lose loyalty there.

Example?

The one time I choose badly I chose Samara and all Miranda said was "At least she has experience" or something like that. There was no option for Shepard to reply if I remember correctly as well.

Anyway I disagree that should automatically cut off loyalty and especially romance. If anything that sort of situation deserves to have Miranda call out Shepard in private and if the convo goes bad maybe loyalty is lost. But seeing as how it's endgame already there's no time for that. Nothing Shepard can do in ME2 should be a deal-breaker romance wise (except of course for the actually ending it option).

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 06 décembre 2011 - 09:22 .

[The Elder King]

CrutchCricket wrote...

jtav wrote...

If we're talking about romance-killers, the most damning lines occur after the romance is consummated. Choose a bad first fire team leader. Miranda will make disparaging comments. You can assert your authority in a very nasty way, and it's clear neither respects the other. Were it mechanically possible, you should lose loyalty there.

Example?

The one time I choose badly I chose Samara and all Miranda said was "At least she has experience" or something like that. There was no option for Shepard to reply if I remember correctly as well.

Never tried the option myself, but I'm quite sure that she reacts in a different way if you choose Jack:P.

[jtav]

I dumped her for other reasons on my last game, so I decided to have fun with it and bully her. It's probably the nastiest they get. She disparages his leadership abilities ("Ypu've got to be kidding") and Shep responds in kind. It's going to be very odd to have her treating me like a friend in ME2.

[Dr. Doctor]

Attempts at being a Cerberus-Hater turn into this:

Shepard: Damnit Miranda, I hate you and everything that Cerberus stands for!

Miranda: Shepard, I don't like having to ask you this but will you help me save my sister?

Shepard: (sighs) Fine.

After LM

Shepard: (hugs Miranda) I love you.

Miranda: Feeling a little bipolar aren't we?

[Ieldra]

ubermensch007 wrote...
I don't think that Shep and Miri would have broken up over their row while planning the Suicide Mission.If anything Miranda should have apologized, for while she may have never been military.She should damn well know that disagreeing with her Commanding Officer (especially in such a disrespectfukl manner) in front of everyone else like that; was really bad form... But hey, Miranda's mouth getting her into trouble is nothing new.

If you choose Jack as the fire team leader, I find Miranda's comment totally appropriate. You've got to be kidding me, indeed. Granted, usually such things would be discussed behind closed doors between them, but this could affect the outcome of the mission. Shepard should be given the opportunity to listen to her recommendation.

Also speaking of failure to make the right choices, at times I thought Miranda should berate herself for failing at the biotic bubble as she certainly would. Only as the scene plays out, it appears as if the one who is lost carelessly steps out of the bubble while it is still intact.  

[The Elder King]

Ieldra2 wrote...


If you choose Jack as the fire team leader, I find Miranda's comment totally appropriate. You've got to be kidding me, indeed.

True. I like Jack, but I'd never give her the command of part of my team. At least in ME2 (she seems more mature in ME3, putting aside her hate of Cerberus and Miranda).

[flemm]

Personally, I'll miss Miranda's b*tchy, abrasive side if it's not there in ME3. Emotional moments are great, too, but I like both.

Modifié par flemm, 06 décembre 2011 - 09:58 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Personally, I'll miss Miranda's b*tchy side if it's not there in ME3. Emotional moments are great, too, but I like both.

I never thought her b*tchy. Distanced, yes. Cold, at times. Aloof, certainly. She's a person you connect to through your mind before you connect to her emotionally. I liked her from the start of the game for that reason. I say those people who only liked her after her LM like only half of her.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 décembre 2011 - 10:02 .

[jtav]

I loved her abrasiveness. I'm a bit prickly myself, so it was great to see a LI for whom that trait doesn't need to be fixed. She warms up in private, but she's still only nice to Shepard, Oriana, and Jacob.