82210 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

Permission to explain it away Ieldra?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Permission to explain it away Ieldra?

Why do you need my permission? Besides, if you want, you can try to explain pretty much anything away. The question is if it's convincing.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:14 .

[jtav]

Because I feel horrible about posting this:

Miranda's belief in Cerberus' goals is entirely tied to her need for purpose. She was lost, floundering after her flight from her father. Over time, she adopted the goals of the first person who treated her as if she actually mattered (TIM). What's more, he can provide her justification for her existence when her older sisters were killed or otherwise disposed of. The advancement of the human race gives her something to live for. But now Shepard, charismatic space Messiah that he is, has made her realize that she needs no justification. So she doesn't "need" that belief in the advancement of humanity. It was an emotional crutch, not her passion. So she devotes herself to what's always been *really* important to her: Oriana. At least, I'm fairly sure that's how we're supposed to see it.

I threw up in my mouth a little just writing that, by the way.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Because I feel horrible about posting this:

Miranda's belief in Cerberus' goals is entirely tied to her need for purpose. She was lost, floundering after her flight from her father. Over time, she adopted the goals of the first person who treated her as if she actually mattered (TIM). What's more, he can provide her justification for her existence when her older sisters were killed or otherwise disposed of. The advancement of the human race gives her something to live for. But now Shepard, charismatic space Messiah that he is, has made her realize that she needs no justification. So she doesn't "need" that belief in the advancement of humanity. It was an emotional crutch, not her passion. So she devotes herself to what's always been *really* important to her: Oriana. At least, I'm fairly sure that's how we're supposed to see it.

I threw up in my mouth a little just writing that, by the way.

:sick:x10000000000000
Urgh. I'm just glad that I know you don't *really* believe that. And I don't care how we're supposed to see it, what I see is a woman who believes in her cause, misguided as her loyalty might be, and I like her. I'm not going to let her go.

Also I'm not so sure we're supposed to see it that way. It does look fairly convincing in ME2, after all. Unlike her statement "it wasn't Cerberus", where she sounded as if she wanted to convince herself.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:43 .

[feliciano2040]

jtav wrote...

I threw up in my mouth a little just writing that, by the way.

Why ? If anything I congratulate you good sir................or lady.

That was a succint, precise description of one of the most interesting and complex layers of her character.

Things like that are precisely what make her an awesome character to me, unlike some characters who can become the most experienced information brokers in the galaxy in less than a couple of years.

Ieldra2

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sick.png[/smilie]x10000000000000
Urgh. I'm just glad that I know you don't *really* believe that. And I don't care how we're supposed to see it, what I see is a woman who believes in her cause, misguided as her loyalty might be, and I like her. I'm not going to let her go.

 

WOW WOW, what's going on here ?

Nobody's saying she is not independent or strong, she just has a great need for feeling that she is doing something worthy and meaningful, she needs purpose in her life.

That's why I always thought she hated Jack, not because she was undisciplined or reckless, but because Jack didn't care about anything, it rubbed her the wrong way.

Modifié par feliciano2040, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:44 .

[Yezdigerd]

If you play on insanity, squad powers are the difference. If you play for maximum efficency you want warp for bombs, if you don't got it yourself that's Miranda or Thane. Thane is a monster with the incisor but he is only good for warp, which forces you to build around him for pulling or stripping. You can play any class with any squadmate and Miranda will always fill in the missing link for the warpbombchains. She is the only squaddie who can strip, pull, bomb anything with a stellar passive.

[Ieldra]

feliciano2040 wrote...

jtav wrote...

I threw up in my mouth a little just writing that, by the way.

Why ? If anything I congratulate you good sir................or lady.

That was a succint, precise description of one of the most interesting and complex layers of her character.

Things like that are precisely what make her an awesome character to me, unlike some characters who can become the most experienced information brokers in the galaxy in less than a couple of years.

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sick.png[/smilie]x10000000000000
Urgh. I'm just glad that I know you don't *really* believe that. And I don't care how we're supposed to see it, what I see is a woman who believes in her cause, misguided as her loyalty might be, and I like her. I'm not going to let her go.

WOW WOW, what's going on here ?

Nobody's saying she is not independent or strong, she just has a great need for feeling that she is doing something worthy and meaningful, she needs purpose in her life.

Yes, but in case you didn't notice, jtav's argument - in which she doesn't believe btw - just destroyed that belief in something purposeful and meaningful, in that higher cause, by saying it was nothing more than an emotional crutch and that she really cares only about Oriana.

Which I don't believe for a second.

@jtav:
I can't believe someone took this seriously.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:49 .

[jlb524]

feliciano2040 wrote...
Nobody's saying she is not independent or strong, she just has a great need for feeling that she is doing something worthy and meaningful, she needs purpose in her life.

What's wrong with "advancing her species (who are supposedly one of the 'underdogs' of the galaxy) to the point where they can compete with the other Council races"?

That seemed like a decent enough purpose.

[Ryzaki]

Bleh an emotional crutch?

I hope not. Miranda can believe in human advancement without being all MUWAHAHA I will experiment on children and innocent civilians for SCIENCE!  

Just...no.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:50 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Because I feel horrible about posting this:

Miranda's belief in Cerberus' goals is entirely tied to her need for purpose. She was lost, floundering after her flight from her father. Over time, she adopted the goals of the first person who treated her as if she actually mattered (TIM). What's more, he can provide her justification for her existence when her older sisters were killed or otherwise disposed of. The advancement of the human race gives her something to live for. But now Shepard, charismatic space Messiah that he is, has made her realize that she needs no justification. So she doesn't "need" that belief in the advancement of humanity. It was an emotional crutch, not her passion. So she devotes herself to what's always been *really* important to her: Oriana. At least, I'm fairly sure that's how we're supposed to see it.

I threw up in my mouth a little just writing that, by the way.

Well, to my mind, even if we run with the interpretation that she doesn't really have any professional goals anymore, we're still left with the fact that she's basically a responsable person, who cares about other people and therefore would despise seeing the organisation she used to work for turn into its ME3 incarnation.

Unless Oriana has turned into some sort of wierd and nonsensical obsession, Miranda would still feel bound to deal with TIM and Cerberus once her sister's immediate safety was assured. (Not to mention that TIM directly endangered Oriana.) So, no matter how you look at it, I don't think there's plausibly any way around that side of the story.

Modifié par flemm, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:55 .

[feliciano2040]

Skullheart wrote...

they dont charge the shots though... its a waste to give them the gps.

There's no need for the charge, the shotgun still does plenty of damage, and more importantly it does it from afar, most squaddies can't stand damage at close quarters.

[Ieldra]

@flemm:
I agree, but I freely admit that won't be enough for me.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@flemm:
I agree, but I freely admit that won't be enough for me.

Well, I wouldn't really approve either, if it were limited to that, but I thought it was worth pointing out that, even if we go with an extreme interpretation of the kind jtav presented, it really changes nothing as to where her story should go next. It just changes the motivations somewhat.

There's no way that Miranda could plausibly not care deeply about what is going on around her in ME3. She might plausibly give Oriana priority for a while, especially given the newly renewed link between *spoiler character* and Cerberus. But her involvement couldn't plausibly end there under any circumstances.

Modifié par flemm, 07 décembre 2011 - 08:57 .

[feliciano2040]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes, but in case you didn't notice, jtav's argument - in which she doesn't believe btw - just destroyed that belief in something purposeful and meaningful, in that higher cause, by saying it was nothing more than an emotional crutch and that she really cares only about Oriana.

Which I don't believe for a second.

@jtav:
I can't believe someone took this seriously.

I hadn't read jtav's previous posts regarding this, I thought she was being serious, please don't send me to the gallows 

Still, I hardly see how there's something wrong with having that as an emotional crutch, it doesn't take anything away from her, it's not like she would completely dump away her beliefs in favor of eternally living for Oriana's sake, it would just mean she has re-arranged her priorities, similar to Mordin and his favorite nephew.

[jtav]

I was being serious n the sense that the fear that this is where BW is going keeps me up at night. ME is so black and white that her belief in human advancement must be jettisoned because it's racism by another name.

[naledgeborn]

jtav wrote...

I was being serious n the sense that the fear that this is where BW is going keeps me up at night. ME is so black and white that her belief in human advancement must be jettisoned because it's racism by another name.

In the words of engieer Ken Donnely "Which is bullsh*t!"

Modifié par naledgeborn, 07 décembre 2011 - 09:12 .

[Ryzaki]

jtav wrote...

I was being serious n the sense that the fear that this is where BW is going keeps me up at night. ME is so black and white that her belief in human advancement must be jettisoned because it's racism by another name.

But it's not =/

Cerberus might be racist (and heck Miranda openly admits many of their members are racist) that doesn't make human advancement as a whole racist.

It only becomes racist when it's at the expense of every single other species. Which it doesn't have to be.

[MisterJB]

jtav wrote...

Because I feel horrible about posting this:

Miranda's belief in Cerberus' goals is entirely tied to her need for purpose. She was lost, floundering after her flight from her father. Over time, she adopted the goals of the first person who treated her as if she actually mattered (TIM). What's more, he can provide her justification for her existence when her older sisters were killed or otherwise disposed of. The advancement of the human race gives her something to live for. But now Shepard, charismatic space Messiah that he is, has made her realize that she needs no justification. So she doesn't "need" that belief in the advancement of humanity. It was an emotional crutch, not her passion. So she devotes herself to what's always been *really* important to her: Oriana. At least, I'm fairly sure that's how we're supposed to see it.

I threw up in my mouth a little just writing that, by the way.

Someone has to name those horrible fears that are always there, on the back of your mind, keeping you awake at night but that you are too scared to give form to.
Suddenly I sympathize with the Turian Councilor. Ah yes, "emotional crutches".

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 décembre 2011 - 09:17 .

[jtav]

Right. But I'm not sure if the devs are cognizant of the fact that the ideals presented by Miranda and in the Cerberus manifesto are good, now that Cerberus has been transformed into pure evil.

MisterJB: so not just me that's paranoid, then?

Modifié par jtav, 07 décembre 2011 - 09:17 .

[feliciano2040]

jtav wrote...

I was being serious n the sense that the fear that this is where BW is going keeps me up at night. ME is so black and white that her belief in human advancement must be jettisoned because it's racism by another name.

That's a little relative.

Just because Cerberus are the bad guys in ME 3 doesn't mean Bioware is saying as a whole that their idea is wrong, it's just convenient to the story they want to tell. I wouldn't think any of the ME writers thought for a second that Miranda's philosophy was racist.

After all, one of the games' main themes is the battle of "Idealism Vs. Pragmatism", which we see in every character and within every part of the plot, as well as the sub-plots.

[Skullheart]

in the game every pro-human option feels like the renegade path..

[naledgeborn]

naledgeborn wrote...

"Which is bullsh*t!"

[feliciano2040]

Skullheart wrote...

in the game every pro-human option feels like the renegade path..

Because it is.

Doesn't mean you are a racist, or a "speciecist", but it does mean that you selectively favor one over the other.

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...

jtav wrote...

I was being serious n the sense that the fear that this is where BW is going keeps me up at night. ME is so black and white that her belief in human advancement must be jettisoned because it's racism by another name.

But it's not =/

Cerberus might be racist (and heck Miranda openly admits many of their members are racist) that doesn't make human advancement as a whole racist.

It only becomes racist when it's at the expense of every single other species. Which it doesn't have to be.

We all know that. The question is: does Bioware know that? Or rather more to the point: does Bioware think the cause of human advancement is so tainted by Cerberus that it must be abandoned together with the organization?

I'm really afraid of that black and white morality raising its ugly head again, destroying the nuances of characters in the process. I know Bioware in general can present a more subtle picture. I'm just not too confident in the willingness of the ME team to do it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 décembre 2011 - 09:31 .

[feliciano2040]

Ieldra2 wrote...

We all know that. The question is: does Bioware know that? Or rather more to the point: does Bioware think the cause of human advancement is so tainted by Cerberus that it must be abandoned together with the organization?

I'm really afraid of that black and white morality raising its ugly head again, destroying the nuances of characters in the process. I know Bioware in general can present a more subtle picture. I'm just not too confident in the willingness of the ME team to do it.

Can't say these concerns have no legitimacy, but part of the point of ME 2 is to make a case in favor of Cerberus, as well as pragmatism in general, I've never had any doubt in my mind that there's plenty of Bioware writers who support Renegade Shepard's actions throughout the game, as well as TIM's or Cerberus'.

Doesn't mean they wouldn't think Cerberus as the main enemy wouldn't make for a great story.