82210 réponses à ce sujet

[feliciano2040]

naledgeborn wrote...

She's not an "investment". Clone or not Oriana is a living breathing human being with rights. Because Mr. Lawson spent money tinkering with her DNA doesn't mean he "owns" her.

Oriana IS an investment to her father, doesn't mean she doesn't have the right to choose a life as a normal human being.

[jtav]

Oriana is an adult. Lawson no longer has a legal right to her. She can live where and with whom she chooses. He's not reaching out to establish a relationship. He's taking her by force.

[HK-90210]

feliciano2040 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Miranda's kidnapping of Oriana is the exact same situation as the battered wife who takes the kids so the husband can't get to them. Also, Oriana is an adult. Her father would no longer have custody anyway.

We don't begrudge Miranda's reasons, but Niket does, and with good reason, she didn't tell him about her taking of Oriana, does that mean he deserves to die because he thinks being poor sucks ?

No, he deserves to die becasue he thinks he has a right to make tha decision for Oriana. Also, there's no indication that Oriana is currently poor anyway, so his reasoning is bull****.

[wright1978]

The main problem with the paragon interrupt is that Shep grabs her gun when there's a commando with a weapon trained on them. That's just dumb.

[feliciano2040]

jtav wrote...

Oriana is an adult. Lawson no longer has a legal right to her. She can live where and with whom she chooses. He's not reaching out to establish a relationship. He's taking her by force.

Confused. I feel.

Unless you're talking to someone else, I never said he wanted to rekindle his relationship with his daughter, HE IS taking her by force and is trying to achieve the goals he has planned for her.

[AresXX7]

CastonFolarus wrote...

feliciano2040 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Miranda's kidnapping of Oriana is the exact same situation as the battered wife who takes the kids so the husband can't get to them. Also, Oriana is an adult. Her father would no longer have custody anyway.

We don't begrudge Miranda's reasons, but Niket does, and with good reason, she didn't tell him about her taking of Oriana, does that mean he deserves to die because he thinks being poor sucks ?

No, he deserves to die becasue he thinks he has a right to make tha decision for Oriana. Also, there's no indication that Oriana is currently poor anyway, so his reasoning is bull****.

Niket was referring to himself, not Oriana.

[naledgeborn]

wright1978 wrote...

The main problem with the paragon interrupt is that Shep grabs her gun when there's a commando with a weapon trained on them. That's just dumb.

[HK-90210]

AresXX7 wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

feliciano2040 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Miranda's kidnapping of Oriana is the exact same situation as the battered wife who takes the kids so the husband can't get to them. Also, Oriana is an adult. Her father would no longer have custody anyway.

We don't begrudge Miranda's reasons, but Niket does, and with good reason, she didn't tell him about her taking of Oriana, does that mean he deserves to die because he thinks being poor sucks ?

No, he deserves to die becasue he thinks he has a right to make tha decision for Oriana. Also, there's no indication that Oriana is currently poor anyway, so his reasoning is bull****.

Niket was referring to himself, not Oriana.

Yes, but he was using that reasoning to justify kindnapping Oriana.

[feliciano2040]

CastonFolarus wrote...

No, he deserves to die becasue he thinks he has a right to make tha decision for Oriana. Also, there's no indication that Oriana is currently poor anyway, so his reasoning is bull****.

Another person I'm grateful for not being in law enforcement  !

Seriously good sir, if you think killing someone for making misjudgements is right, then you really, REALLY need to check your premises !

[Ieldra]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
There are many Paragon decisions that have nothing to recommend them but sentimentality. I'll get back later with an extended reply (in a hurry atm), but think about this for now: how is convincing Miranda to talk to her sister morally better than not to do so? 

Even if there were some sentimental decisions (which I can agree there are some), where do you think those would fit best ?

There's nothing wrong with choosing not to talk with Oriana, it's Miranda's choice in any case.

Of course there's nothing wrong with it in principle, except for the practical considerations raised by jtav. But that's not the point: the important thing is that it is not *morally* better to make her talk to Oriana than it is to not do to. In fact, depending on the exact circumstances, it may be better not to do it. This means that in this situation, the Paragon option is not defined by idealism or morality.

But if there's no reasonable danger to Oriana's safety, then Miranda can concern herself about her own wishes. Genetically modified or not, she has the right to worry about her own happiness, again, as long as she doesn't put Oriana in danger, which she isn't doing at all.

Of course. But we don't know if there is no danger. That's the whole point of it.

Note that I almost always convince Miranda to talk to her sister. But not because it's somehow "better" in a moral way. Because it isn't. It only *feels* better. As opposed to what the ME trilogy tries to tell us "feels better" does not equal "is morally better".

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sensing some of you guys let Niket take a mass accelerator round to the gut

I do. As a rule. Because it is her decision to make and the way Shepard interrupts her is insulting and dumb. If I had a (verbal) persuasion option, I'd convince her to spare Niket more often. BTW, you can even argue that Niket deserves it. The decision is not clear-cut enough to justify Shepard interrupting her.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 décembre 2011 - 05:35 .

[HK-90210]

feliciano2040 wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

No, he deserves to die becasue he thinks he has a right to make tha decision for Oriana. Also, there's no indication that Oriana is currently poor anyway, so his reasoning is bull****.

Another person I'm grateful for not being in law enforcement  !

Seriously good sir, if you think killing someone for making misjudgements is right, then you really, REALLY need to check your premises !

Deciding to kidnap an adult woman from her family is not a 'misjudgment'. It is a criminal act, and Niket deserves to be punished for it. Any prosecuation for that crime, even if it got that far, would lead to information about Oriana getting back to Miranda's father. So how else, exactly, should Niket be punished for what he was doing?

Edit: And regardless, you are not put into the situation as a member of law enforcment. You are put into the situation as an (ex)Spectre Agent, Miranda's commanding officer, and (possibly)friend. That changes one's reaction to the situation considerably.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 08 décembre 2011 - 05:48 .

[Xilizhra]

I do. As a rule. Because it is her decision to make and the way Shepard interrupts her is insulting and dumb. If I had a (verbal) persuasion option, I'd convince her to spare Niket more often. BTW, you can even argue that Niket deserves it. The decision is not clear-cut enough to justify Shepard interrupting her.

How is it insulting?

[Ryzaki]

Let's not use the "kidnapping is a criminal act" theme as a reason for death because Miranda did it first. Yes she did it to to help. Niket thought he was doing the same.

Frankly I thought the issue was fault on both their parts which is why now (before I hated the animation too much) I always stop him.

The whole damn thing could've been ended by them talking to one another and explaining themselves. Niket should've asked Miranda why before running off to Lawson and Miranda should've explained herself when she was asking for Niket's help.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:02 .

[jtav]

I also almost always have her speak to Oriana. It's not even an RP decision. Miranda deserves some happiness, and what kind of universe am I running here? I want her to have more people who love her, not fewer.

[feliciano2040]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Of course there's nothing wrong with it in principle, except for the practical considerations raised by jtav. But that's not the point: the important thing is that it is not *morally* better to make her talk to Oriana than it is to not do to. In fact, depending on the exact circumstances, it may be better not to do it. This means that in this situation, the Paragon option is not defined by idealism or morality.

I can agree that morality probably doesn't enter the picture here, but it is the ideal thing to allow Miranda to have a healthy relationship with her sister, a lot of paragon decisions are based on the premise that "despite all foreseeable consequences, it's the right thing to do", I think this decision very well fits with the premise, and therefore it is paragon.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Of course. But we don't know if there is no danger. That's the whole point of it.

Note that I almost always convince Miranda to talk to her sister. But not because it's somehow "better" in a moral way. Because it isn't. It only *feels* better. As opposed to what the ME trilogy tries to tell us "feels better" does not equal "is morally better".

We can NEVER be sure that anything is "danger-free".

The first time I had to make that decision, I approached it similarly to how I dealt with the Petrovski decision in ME1, what do I mean with this ? That Shepard is just suggesting Miranda that she can talk to her sister, he can't make her go talk to her, it's her decision, therefore, if she, if Miranda frikkin' Lawson can't see any problem with it, then why would I ?

Ieldra2 wrote...

I do. As a rule. Because it is her decision to make and the way Shepard interrupts her is insulting and dumb. If I had a (verbal) persuasion option, I'd convince her to spare Niket more often. BTW, you can even argue that Niket deserves it. The decision is not clear-cut enough to justify Shepard interrupting her.

That's not how "decisions" and "rights" work, nobody has the right to commit murder, specially (in this case) If someone (Miranda) is making a negligent, emotionally distressed, morally reprehensible decision,

Quite frankly, Niket doesn't deserve it AT ALL, he was an idiot with poor judging skills, but that doesn't mean he deserved to die, specially after he had commited no crime and he was willing to fix his mistakes, as somebody else already put it, as soon as Oriana was moved, Niket is no longer a loose end.

CastonFolarus wrote...

Deciding to kidnap an adult woman from her family is not a 'misjudgment'. It is a criminal act, and Niket deserves to be punished for it. Any prosecuation for that crime, even if it got that far, would lead to information about Oriana getting back to Miranda's father. So how else, exactly, should Niket be punished for what he was doing? 

Miranda also kidnapped a child and lied to her best friend, by law, that is also a criminal act.

Niket wasn't kidnapping anyone, he was assisting in a very reprehensible scheme to take a woman from her family because he thought it was the right thing to do, EXACTLY what Miranda did many years ago, the only problem with his actions is that he is concerning himself with a matter he has no right to get involved in, specially when he is acting out of his own misguided beliefs.

In fact, if it wasn't for Niket, Captain Enyala would've grabbed Oriana by the hair and kicked her butt into the nearest shuttle to take her back to her father.

How to deal with Niket ? The solution was given by Shepard right there, Niket just needs to keep his mouth shut and lie to Oriana's father until she had been moved, to which Niket loses value as an asset to Oriana's father.

No one deserves to die simply for getting their nose involved in other peoples' business, if you think people deserve to die for so little, then you're a thug.

[HK-90210]

Ryzaki wrote...

Let's not use the "kidnapping is a criminal act" theme as a reason for death because Miranda did it first. Yes she did it to to help. Niket thought he was doing the same.

Gotta disagree. As Miranda says, "I didn't steal her, I rescued her.". While the actions are similar, the circumstances are not.

[Ryzaki]

CastonFolarus wrote...

Gotta disagree. As Miranda says, "I didn't steal her, I rescued her.". While the actions are similar, the circumstances are not.

And Niket thought he was helping her reunite with her father that Miranda kidnapped her from.

You can't pretend he knew all the crap that Miranda never bothered to tell him when there's evidence to the contrary (Miranda flat out says he doesn't know. She just wrongfully assumed he'd automatically understand.).

Maybe if someone had bothered to explain herself...

It's like Shep on Horizon. It looks pretty damn bad (except Shep *tries* to explain himself with someo convos) and I don't blame someone for going "WTF man?!?" especially when they don't have all the information. I do however blame him for not going WTF man right in front of Miranda and instead running to her father behind her back. That was low. He should've asked her why as she asked for his help.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:09 .

[jtav]

Right. Lawson forfeited his right to Oriana by his abuse of Miranda and what's heavily implied to be murder of other daughters. Niket is acting out of spite and greed. Totally different moral situations. And given the grave harm a trial would do and his obvious guilt, summary execution is warranted.

[Ryzaki]

jtav wrote...

Right. Lawson forfeited his right to Oriana by his abuse of Miranda and what's heavily implied to be murder of other daughters. Niket is acting out of spite and greed. Totally different moral situations. And given the grave harm a trial would do and his obvious guilt, summary execution is warranted.

I do agree with the first part. But if Niket doesn't know about the abuse I can't hold it on him.

I see greed but spite? Not so much. I'm seeing someone who sees his friend lied to him (or at the very least hid the truth) for several years and he doesn't know who to trust anymore and he makes a bad decision as a result.

I don't feel that a summary execution is warranted. Sadly he gets shot anyway.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:16 .

[feliciano2040]

jtav wrote...

Right. Lawson forfeited his right to Oriana by his abuse of Miranda and what's heavily implied to be murder of other daughters. Niket is acting out of spite and greed. Totally different moral situations. And given the grave harm a trial would do and his obvious guilt, summary execution is warranted.

No it's not, Niket was also acting out of concern, you don't believe so ? Try to see how Miss Politeness (Captain Enyala) would've taken Oriana back to her father.

Besides, a trial ? When was that suggested ? Had Enyala not killed Niket he would've just had to dissapear after lying to Miranda's father and ensuring he no longer could threaten Oriana's safety.

[HK-90210]

feliciano2040 wrote...
Niket wasn't kidnapping anyone, he was assisting in a very reprehensible scheme to take a woman from her family because he thought it was the right thing to do,

What do you think kidnapping means?

feliciano2040 wrote...
EXACTLY what Miranda did many years ago, the only problem with his actions is that he is concerning himself with a matter he has no right to get involved in, specially when he is acting out of his own misguided beliefs.

The key difference? Oriana is an adult now, capable of making her own decisions. Niket wanted to take away that right, misguided beliefs or no. By taking Oriana way from her father, Miranda was giving that right to her. The circumstances are ENTIRELY different.

feliciano2040 wrote...
In fact, if it wasn't for Niket, Captain Enyala would've grabbed Oriana by the hair and kicked her butt into the nearest shuttle to take her back to her father.

If it wasn't for niket, captain Enyala wouldn't have gotten that close to Oriana to begin with.

feliciano2040 wrote...
How to deal with Niket ? The solution was given by Shepard right there, Niket just needs to keep his mouth shut and lie to Oriana's father until she had been moved, to which Niket loses value as an asset to Oriana's father.

Killing him is the practical move. Even if he told Miranda's father what he knew(that Oriana was once on Ilium, who her foster parents were, what ship they took to leave, etc), that's more than enough info for Miranda's father to track Oriana down. Like Miranda says, Niket is a loose end. And when it comes to Oriana's safety, she can't afford that. So she kills Niket
.

feliciano2040 wrote...
No one deserves to die simply for getting their nose involved in other peoples' business, if you think people deserve to die for so little, then you're a thug.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I think what Niket does is far more than "getting his nose involved in other peoples' business". He attempts to kidnap an adult, taking her from her family, giving her to a man that he has to know will not have her best interests at heart. Niket is not just some naive do-gooder. He knows Miranda's father. Maybe not the extent of his intentions, but certainly the basics.

When Miranda took Oriana away, she was a baby, therefore couldn't make any decisions of her own. And if Miranda had left her behind, that inherent human right would have been taken away by her father. Miranda was the only person who was looking out for Oriana, so she did what she had to do. When Niket tried to take Oriana away from her family, Oriana is more than capable of making her own decisions.

He helped Miranda run because, in his words, she wanted to leave. He's not sending Oriana back to her father because she wants to go. He doesn't give a damn what she wants, he just thinks he knows better. Miranda, however, did give a damn.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:36 .

[HK-90210]

Ryzaki wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

Gotta disagree. As Miranda says, "I didn't steal her, I rescued her.". While the actions are similar, the circumstances are not.

And Niket thought he was helping her reunite with her father that Miranda kidnapped her from.

You can't pretend he knew all the crap that Miranda never bothered to tell him when there's evidence to the contrary (Miranda flat out says he doesn't know. She just wrongfully assumed he'd automatically understand.).

Maybe if someone had bothered to explain herself...

It's like Shep on Horizon. It looks pretty damn bad (except Shep *tries* to explain himself with someo convos) and I don't blame someone for going "WTF man?!?" especially when they don't have all the information. I do however blame him for not going WTF man right in front of Miranda and instead running to her father behind her back. That was low. He should've asked her why as she asked for his help.

The fact that Niket helped Miranda escape proves that he knew Miranda's father holds onto his 'investments', even if they don't want to be held onto. So he tried to kidnap Oriana(an adult, capable of makiing that decision for herself) and give her to her father, knowing that he could be putting her in the same situation that Miranda needed his help to escape from. He might not have known everything about Mrianda's father, but he knew enough. And he wanted to hand Oriana over to him. IMO, he deserves no mercy.


Edit:

Ryzaki wrote...

I see greed but spite? Not so much. I'm seeing someone who sees his friend lied to him (or at the very least hid the truth) for several years and he doesn't know who to trust anymore and he makes a bad decision as a result.

I don't feel that a summary execution is warranted. Sadly he gets shot anyway.

Given that point of view, I can understand holding that opinion. I have a different point of view on the situation, but that does not make yours any less valid.

Funny how people can play the same game, hear the same converstions, and reach very conclusions on what actually happened, not to mention what to do about it, eh?

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:49 .

[medicine]

feliciano2040 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Right. Lawson forfeited his right to Oriana by his abuse of Miranda and what's heavily implied to be murder of other daughters. Niket is acting out of spite and greed. Totally different moral situations. And given the grave harm a trial would do and his obvious guilt, summary execution is warranted.

No it's not, Niket was also acting out of concern, you don't believe so ? Try to see how Miss Politeness (Captain Enyala) would've taken Oriana back to her father.

Besides, a trial ? When was that suggested ? Had Enyala not killed Niket he would've just had to dissapear after lying to Miranda's father and ensuring he no longer could threaten Oriana's safety.

The thing is, what makes you so certain, that he can be trusted? Money certainly eased his tongue.
What actually could compele him to put his live in a line for Miranda? Guilt? Want to rely on this? 
Wonder what Miranda's father would do with a liar...

[CrutchCricket]

Another key difference: Niket believed/assumed a lot of things. Miranda knew.
Comparing their actions quickly falls apart.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 08 décembre 2011 - 06:50 .

[feliciano2040]

Oh man, this is gonna be so good [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie] !

CastonFolarus wrote...

What do you think kidnapping means?

Granted, he was assisting with the kidnapping as well as Enyala, but don't sweep the facts away, if not for him, if not for someone actually concerned about her, and her family's safety, Oriana's family could've been killed, along with many other people.

This guy actually tried to go through the damn traveling regulations to transport her directly to her father, if done his way it would've barely even fit the deffinition of kidnapping.

NOT saying it would've been right, he was clearly mistaken.

CastonFolarus wrote...

The key difference? Oriana is an adult now, capable of making her own decisions. Niket wanted to take away that right, misguided beliefs or no. By taking Oriana way from her father, Miranda was giving that right to her. The circumstances are ENTIRELY different.

Niket doesn't know that, since Niket has no knowledge of what Miranda's father is capable, he can only assume that Oriana would be in no real danger at all, you need to realize that Miranda withheld information from Niket, and it resulted in a bad misunderstanding.

Being your sister doesn't mean I can take you at my own whim, granted, this is not what Miranda did, we all can agree that she did it to protect her sister, that doesn't mean Niket has to agree with her, nor being okay with being lied to.

Much less that he has to take a bullet in the guy when there is a perfectly more adequate alternative.

CastonFolarus wrote...

If it wasn't for niket, captain Enyala wouldn't have gotten that close to Oriana to begin with.

And if it wasn't for him, her family could've been killed by Eclipse Mercenaries.

CastonFolarus wrote...

Killing him is the practical move. Even if he told Miranda's father what he knew(that Oriana was once on Ilium, who her foster parents were, what ship they took to leave, etc), that's more than enough info for Miranda's father to track Oriana down. Like Miranda says, Niket is a loose end. And when it comes to Oriana's safety, she can't afford that. So she kills Niket

Killing him is the criminal's move, in Miranda's case, it was the anger-fueled, poorly judged, morally reprehensible move, if she can't control herself in order to properly decide wether it is necessary to kill someone, then she is as much a criminal as anyone in that room, that's why I interrupt her and allow her to think twice, because there is an alternative that doesn't involve killing an innocent man.

CastonFolarus wrote...

Please don't put words into my mouth. I think what Niket does is far more than "getting his nose involved in other peoples' business". He attempts to kidnap an adult, taking her from her family, giving her to a man that he has to know will not have her best interests at heart. Niket is not just some naive do-gooder. He knows Miranda's father. Maybe not the extent of his intentions, but certainly the basics.

Again, what makes you think that Niket knows ? What evidence do you have ? There's nothing to imply that Niket knew about the abuse Miranda's father commited on her, he was oblivious to the real reasons to Miranda's actions, it was a misunderstanding, due to Miranda withholding information and Niket making really poor assumptions.

CastonFolarus wrote...

When Miranda took Oriana away, she was a baby, therefore couldn't make any decisions of her own. And if Miranda had left her behind, that inherent human right would have been taken away by her father. Miranda was the only person who was looking out for Oriana, so she did what she had to do. When Niket tried to take Oriana away from her family, Oriana is more than capable of making her own decisions.

Let me see if I understand your logic.

If I forbid someone from making a decision, if I neglect someone's rights, then I deserve to die ?

Wether you like it or not, Niket was only making misguided decisions, you DO NOT kill people for making wrong, poorly thought choices, specially when other solutions are available.

CastonFolarus wrote...

he just thinks he knows better

Exactly.

Nosey people don't deserve to die.