82210 réponses à ce sujet

[medicine]

Am I wrong, or did Miranda said that Niket "knows what she's gone through"? That's why she was so sure of his loyalty, and expected his understanding, despite of not informing him of small things like why she decide to relocate Oriana and being with Cerberus?
And participating in kidnapping doesn't make you innocent.

Modifié par medicine, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:18 .

[Skullheart]

Niket knew what kind of things Mr. Lawson had plannet to Oriana. He just choosed the money over the friendship with Miranda. He deserved to die.

[Ryzaki]

medicine wrote...

Am I wrong, or did Miranda said that Niket "knows what she's gone through"? That's why she was so sure of his loyalty, and expected his understanding, despite of not informing him of small things like why she decide to relocate Oriana and being with Cerberus?
And participating in kidnapping doesn't make you innocent.

She did say that? Only thing I heard of the sort was her saying he would understand.

[Ryzaki]

CastonFolarus wrote...

The fact that Niket helped Miranda escape proves that he knew Miranda's father holds onto his 'investments', even if they don't want to be held onto. So he tried to kidnap Oriana(an adult, capable of makiing that decision for herself) and give her to her father, knowing that he could be putting her in the same situation that Miranda needed his help to escape from. He might not have known everything about Mrianda's father, but he knew enough. And he wanted to hand Oriana over to him. IMO, he deserves no mercy


Edit:
Given that point of view, I can understand holding that opinion. I have a different point of view on the situation, but that does not make yours any less valid.

Funny how people can play the same game, hear the same converstions, and reach very conclusions on what actually happened, not to mention what to do about it, eh?

It is. It's what I love about BW games. <3 And same about yours. I guess I'm an uber paragon at heart.

[HK-90210]

[quote]feliciano2040 wrote...

This guy actually tried to go through the damn traveling regulations to transport her directly to her father, if done his way it would've barely even fit the deffinition of kidnapping.
[/quote]


Kidnapping: The crime of taking a person against their will, sometimes for ransom.

He intends to hand Oriana over to her father, whether she wants it or not. It's textbook kidnapping.

[quote]feliciano2040 wrote...
[quote]CastonFolarus wrote...

The key difference? Oriana is an adult now, capable of making her own decisions. Niket wanted to take away that right, misguided beliefs or no. By taking Oriana way from her father, Miranda was giving that right to her. The circumstances are ENTIRELY different.[/quote]

Niket doesn't know that, since Niket has no knowledge of what Miranda's father is capable, he can only assume that Oriana would be in no real danger at all, you need to realize that Miranda withheld information from Niket, and it resulted in a bad misunderstanding.
[/quote]

He knows that he is capable of holding a person against their will. Niket helped Miranda escape from her father. He is not completely ignorant of what he is capable of.

[quote]feliciano2040 wrote...

Killing him is the criminal's move, in Miranda's case, it was the anger-fueled, poorly judged, morally reprehensible move, if she can't control herself in order to properly decide wether it is necessary to kill someone, then she is as much a criminal as anyone in that room, that's why I interrupt her and allow her to think twice, because there is an alternative that doesn't involve killing an innocent man.[/quote]

I've always seen it as a very calculating, prudent decision on her part. Yes, at the basis of it is her protectiveness of Oriana, so it isn't entirely rational. But given Miranda's goal(Keeping Oriana away from her father so she can make her own way in life), it seems the option with the least amount of risk to Oriana. And Niket is not an innocent man, IMO.

[quote]feliciano2040 wrote...
Again, what makes you think that Niket knows ? What evidence do you have ? There's nothing to imply that Niket knew about the abuse Miranda's father commited on her, he was oblivious to the real reasons to Miranda's actions, it was a misunderstanding, due to Miranda withholding information and Niket making really poor assumptions.
[/quote]

He might not have known about the abuse, or Miranda's father's intenntions. I doubt he had no inkling of them, but it is possible. But he did know that Miranda's father tried to keep her against her will, and that he could very well do the same to Oriana.

[quote]feliciano2040 wrote...
Let me see if I understand your logic.

If I forbid someone from making a decision, if I neglect someone's rights, then I deserve to die ?
[/quote]

Why are you assuming that I hold every action of every person to the exact same set of simplistic principles? Many different factors and variables combine to make up how I judge the morality of someone's actions. Niket decided to kidnap an adult woman from her family and give her to a man he knew would not have her best interests at heart, and would prevent her from living a free life. Reasons be damned, he knew that much, and IMO, he deserved to die because of that.


[quote]feliciano2040 wrote...
Whether you like it or not, Niket was only making misguided decisions, you DO NOT kill people for making wrong, poorly thought choices, specially when other solutions are available.
[/quote]

What I 'like' about the situation is inconsequncial. It is what it is. Misguided though he might have been, I believe that Niket knew the consequences of his actions. That Oriana would be imprisoned by a man who would use her for her own ends, and not look out her her happiness or her best interests. Based on what the game showed me, I believe he knew that. In my opinion, this makes him little better than a slaver, and he deserves to die.

I don't hold your interpretation of the situation invalid, but I disagree with it.
[/quote]
[quote]feliciano2040 wrote...
[quote]CastonFolarus wrote...

he just thinks he knows better[/quote]

Exactly.

Nosey people don't deserve to die. [/quote]

No. But again, I don't think that Niket was just being nosey.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:49 .

[MisterJB]

Ryzaki wrote...

medicine wrote...

Am I wrong, or did Miranda said that Niket "knows what she's gone through"? That's why she was so sure of his loyalty, and expected his understanding, despite of not informing him of small things like why she decide to relocate Oriana and being with Cerberus?
And participating in kidnapping doesn't make you innocent.

She did say that? Only thing I heard of the sort was her saying he would understand.

She did say that.
"I never really thought about it, but maybe... no. He'd have to understand why I did it. He knows what I went through."

So, Niket was acting under the misguided belief that being abused is better than being poor. While that might not be enough justification to execute him, he has showed that he is unreliable. The only reason he offered to lie to Mr. Lawson was because he had a gun pointed at him.
He is too dangerous to be left alive and I would have preferred if there was an option for Shepard to shoot him himself instead of having to let Miranda execute her only childhood friend.

Calling Mr. Lawson instead of Miranda is unforgivable.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:52 .

[Ieldra]

Ryzaki wrote...

medicine wrote...

Am I wrong, or did Miranda said that Niket "knows what she's gone through"? That's why she was so sure of his loyalty, and expected his understanding, despite of not informing him of small things like why she decide to relocate Oriana and being with Cerberus?
And participating in kidnapping doesn't make you innocent.

She did say that? Only thing I heard of the sort was her saying he would understand.

Elevator conversation 1:
Shepard: Is there a chance your father could be using Niket to get to you?
Miranda: I'm sure he's tried, but Niket's one of the few people who understands what my father is really like.
Miranda: I trusted him with my life when I ran from my father, Shepard. He won't betray me now.

Elevator conversation 2:
Shepard: Did Niket know that you took Oriana from your father?
Miranda: No, he just found out about that recently.
Miranda: It was too personal to involve someone else.
Miranda: I never really thought about it, but maybe... no. He'd have to understand why I did it. He knows what I went through.

I'd say that makes Niket appear in a really bad light. And the killing: he is a loose end and has already betrayed Miranda and Oriana once. Would you trust him after that when he says he won't do it again? Some would, perhaps, but killing him can be justified.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:58 .

[medicine]

[nvm ] I'll just leave it here:

Modifié par medicine, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:57 .

[Ryzaki]

MisterJB wrote...
She did say that.
"I never really thought about it, but maybe... no. He'd have to understand why I did it. He knows what I went through."

So, Niket was acting under the misguided belief that being abused is better than being poor. While that might not be enough justification to execute him, he has showed that he is unreliable. The only reason he offered to lie to Mr. Lawson was because he had a gun pointed at him.
He is too dangerous to be left alive and I would have preferred if there was an option for Shepard to shoot him himself instead of having to let Miranda execute her only childhood friend.

Ah. Still not seeing that as enough reason to execute him though his lack of willingness to talk to Miranda looks even worse. And if he knows what she's been through her not telling him about Oriana to begin with is even more unnecessary.

Not seeing how he's dangerous though. It's not like Miranda was going to tell him where Cerberus was moving the family after he pulled his act and if he does know the location can be changed.

Though now I do agree with jtav's assessement of it being out of spite (along with it being misguided). Miranda spent years lying to him (about Cerberus, about Oriana) it wouldn't be surprising if he started to think she was lying about the abuse too.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:01 .

[HK-90210]

MisterJB wrote...
He is too dangerous to be left alive and I would have preferred if there was an option for Shepard to shoot him himself instead of having to let Miranda execute her only childhood friend.

Funny, that's exactly what I plan for one of my Shepards to do in the piece I'm writing right now. Granted, Miranda is going to be very pissed about it, but that's kind of the realtionship those two have. Very....tense.

Edit:

Ryzaki wrote...
Not seeing how he's dangerous though. It's not like Miranda was going to tell him where Cerberus was moving the family after he pulled his act.

IMO, even if Niket only told Miranda's father what he knew, it would be enough for him to track Oriana down. It's a very large risk to keep him alive. So trying to save him comes down to how much you trust him to keep his word that he will lie to Miranda's father. Most of my Shepards aren't that trusting

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 08 décembre 2011 - 07:59 .

[Ryzaki]

CastonFolarus wrote...

IMO, even if Niket only told Miranda's father what he knew, it would be enough for him to track Oriana down. It's a very large risk to keep him alive. So trying to save him comes down to how much you trust him to keep his word that he will lie to Miranda's father. Most of my Shepards aren't that trusting

If you don't trust him you don't have any way of knowing he didn't tell Mirianda's father to begin with. So either way it's a lose lose.

[MisterJB]

Ryzaki wrote...
Not seeing how he's dangerous though. It's not like Miranda was going to tell him where Cerberus was moving the family after he pulled his act.

He knows the name of the ship Oriana and her family were to leave. Even if Cerberus changed ships to make them harder to find, Niket would know that they left from Nos Astra, that might be enough for someone as rich as Mr. Lawson to track them down.

[Ryzaki]

CastonFolarus wrote...
IMO, even if Niket only told Miranda's father what he knew, it would be enough for him to track Oriana down. It's a very large risk to keep him alive. So trying to save him comes down to how much you trust him to keep his word that he will lie to Miranda's father. Most of my Shepards aren't that trusting

There's the same risk that he already told Miri's father. So even my more cautious Sheps are willing to let him slide.

Renegades just shrug though they don't care enough to get involved.

[Ryzaki]

CastonFolarus wrote...
IMO, even if Niket only told Miranda's
father what he knew, it would be enough for him to track Oriana down.
It's a very large risk to keep him alive. So trying to save him comes
down to how much you trust him to keep his word that he will lie to
Miranda's father. Most of my Shepards aren't that trusting../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png

There's the same risk that he already told Miri's father. So even my more cautious Sheps are willing to let him slide.

Renegades just shrug though they don't care enough to get involved. (I know Garrus probably goes WTF when Shep shrugs and goes "do you Miranda." but the second he tries to kill Sidonis starts going "NOOO YOU CAN'T GARRUS! I DON'T WANT IT TO CORRUPT YOU!" XD) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:10 .

[Ryzaki]

MisterJB wrote...
He knows the name of the ship Oriana and her family were to leave. Even if Cerberus changed ships to make them harder to find, Niket would know that they left from Nos Astra, that might be enough for someone as rich as Mr. Lawson to track them down.

Maybe enough. My Shep's aren't gonna kill people for maybes.

[MisterJB]

Ryzaki wrote...
There's the same risk that he already told Miri's father. So even my more cautious Sheps are willing to let him slide.

No, Niket specifically says that, for fear of Miranda having spyware on her father's system, he didn't give him any vital information so, he is the only one who knows.
Too Dumb To Live!

[medicine]

Ryzaki wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

IMO, even if Niket only told Miranda's father what he knew, it would be enough for him to track Oriana down. It's a very large risk to keep him alive. So trying to save him comes down to how much you trust him to keep his word that he will lie to Miranda's father. Most of my Shepards aren't that trusting

If you don't trust him you don't have any way of knowing he didn't tell Mirianda's father to begin with. So either way it's a lose lose.

Well, this "lie" makes him look like one of the most inconvient people in the room. The "I'm the only one who knows [apart from asari that is standing right here]". Assuming he lied, what else could he expect but a bullet in the head?

[HK-90210]

Ryzaki wrote...

If you don't trust him you don't have any way of knowing he didn't tell Mirianda's father to begin with. So either way it's a lose lose.

Hmmm....True. Still safer to kill him, and it gives me another reason to think he deserves it. But, as the great model of a sceintist salarian would say: "Implications unpleasant."

If Niket did tell Miranda's father about Oraina, it makes it even easier for him to track her down. My Shepards are...angry about the prospect.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:11 .

[Ryzaki]

MisterJB wrote...
No, Niket specifically says that, for fear of Miranda having spyware on her father's system, he didn't give him any vital information so, he is the only one who knows.
Too Dumb To Live!

Or she could kill him and think her plans were free to go about their normal way and have Mr. Lawson waiting for both of them at the front steps. Via "If I die. I'm taking you with me." 

medicine wrote...
Well, this "lie" makes him look like one of
the most inconvient people in the room. The "I'm the only one who knows
[apart from asari that is standing right here]". Assuming he lied, what
else could he expect but a bullet in the head?

For Miranda to believe it and not change her plans. He dies but Oriana's father now knows where she is. (or close enough to it). He could believe he's dying either way might as well die with a trap in place.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:14 .

[MisterJB]

Niket doesn't strike me as a martyr willing to die just to give Oriana a "better life".
Lying about having a friend ready to divulge Oriana's location to her father in case he died on Illium would have worked better.

[HK-90210]

Ryzaki wrote...

There's the same risk that he already told Miri's father. So even my more cautious Sheps are willing to let him slide.

Renegades just shrug though they don't care enough to get involved. (I know Garrus probably goes WTF when Shep shrugs and goes "do you Miranda." but the second he tries to kill Sidonis starts going "NOOO YOU CAN'T GARRUS! I DON'T WANT IT TO CORRUPT YOU!" XD) 

Here's how most of my Shepards try to rationlize that(this took me a while, let me tell you). The primary difference between the deaths of Niket and Sidonis is the consequences. Niket being alive means that Oriana is in more danger, which is a bigger draw on Miranda than potential guilt over killing him. Wheras Sidonis is no threat to anyone if you leave him alive, and it's better for Garrus than killing him, as the whole thing is affecting his judgement and his personal stance on the value of life and morality. Killing Niket is a reasoned decision on Miranda's part. Killing Sidonis is a crisis of character for Garrus. Different situations, different solutions.

Plus, leaving Sidonis alive is a great punisment for him. Fact is, the only way I can see Sidonis making up for what he's done is saving Garrus's family on Palavern when the Reapers show up. This is not something from the leak, just pure guesswork on my part.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:22 .

[medicine]

Ryzaki wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
No, Niket specifically says that, for fear of Miranda having spyware on her father's system, he didn't give him any vital information so, he is the only one who knows.
Too Dumb To Live!

Or she could kill him and think her plans were free to go about their normal way and have Mr. Lawson waiting for both of them at the front steps. Via "If I die. I'm taking you with me." 

medicine wrote...
Well, this "lie" makes him look like one of
the most inconvient people in the room. The "I'm the only one who knows
[apart from asari that is standing right here]". Assuming he lied, what
else could he expect but a bullet in the head?

For Miranda to believe it and not change her plans. He dies but Oriana's father now knows where she is. (or close enough to it). He could believe he's dying either way might as well die with a trap in place.

He doesn't carry that much vitriol against her. He's just a rat that sold her out , because of the money, and hurt feelings, he doesn't hate her. Plus he feels guilty. He didn't even reached a gun, when she hesitated (the moment that Shep uses to.. grab it. Then talk. It's long enough).

Modifié par medicine, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:24 .

[Ryzaki]

MisterJB wrote...

Niket doesn't strike me as a martyr willing to die just to give Oriana a "better life".
Lying about having a friend ready to divulge Oriana's location to her father in case he died on Illium would have worked better.

In which case he really is too honest/stupid. Which makes my Sheps more likely to spare him. He's clearly not that clever even if he would run back to Lawson. My Sheps are always willing to give people a second chance. (or a forced third chance in the case of Rana...) It's the paragon way. (well save Elnora but she pulled at a gun. Shep doesn't let people pull out guns on him unless they're a civilian clearly panicking (I.E. Salarian on Mordin's mission.)

(Did I say killing him wasn't justified? Because if so then no I don't agree with that.)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:26 .

[Ryzaki]

medicine wrote...that much vitriol against her. He's just a rat that sold her out , because of the money, and hurt feelings, he doesn't hate her. Plus he feels guilty. He didn't even reached a gun, when she hesitated (the moment that Shep uses to.. grab it. It's long enough).

If he was just a rat that sold her out he would've done it a while ago. (remember her father has been offering him money since Miranda first escaped) Her lying to him was probably the straw that broke the camel's back. And chances are Miranda's father is very charasmatic and manipulative it wouldn't be difficult for someone like Niket to be manipulated by "Look at all she's lied to you about! You think she didn't lie about me too?" And being lied to for years...I can see how his trust in Miranda would be damaged. It's not like she lied about something minor. (He probably would've understood if she told him immediately but she didn't. Why? She didn't trust him? Why didn't she? She didn't think I'd understand? Then clearly she must've thought I wouldn't understand! *insert more arguing with self about *why* he wouldn't understand and so on and so forth*) and it would probably snowball until he was easily coerced into giving Mr. Lawson exactly what he wanted. The money was a part of it yes but Miranda's lack of explaining herself played a role as well.

Wasn't a good decision and he should've spoken to Miranda instead of running to Lawson but I can see why he'd do it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:38 .

[Ryzaki]

CastonFolarus wrote...
Here's how most of my Shepards try to rationlize that(this took me a while, let me tell you). The primary difference between the deaths of Niket and Sidonis is the consequences. Niket being alive means that Oriana is in more danger, which is a bigger draw on Miranda than potential guilt over killing him. Wheras Sidonis is no threat to anyone if you leave him alive, and it's better for Garrus than killing him, as the whole thing is affecting his judgement and his personal stance on the value of life and morality. Killing Niket is a reasoned decision on Miranda's part. Killing Sidonis is a crisis of character for Garrus. Different situations, different solutions.

Plus, leaving Sidonis alive is a great punisment for him. Fact is, the only way I can see Sidonis making up for what he's done is saving Garrus's family on Palavern when the Reapers show up. This is not something from the leak, just pure guesswork on my part.

I'm stealing this.

But this rationalization is perfect for my Sheps I hope you don't mind me snatching it.

Edit: And I've taken over the page. Sorry guys.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:28 .