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[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

medicine wrote...

Am I wrong, or did Miranda said that Niket "knows what she's gone through"? That's why she was so sure of his loyalty, and expected his understanding, despite of not informing him of small things like why she decide to relocate Oriana and being with Cerberus?
And participating in kidnapping doesn't make you innocent.

She did say that? Only thing I heard of the sort was her saying he would understand.

Elevator conversation 1:
Shepard: Is there a chance your father could be using Niket to get to you?
Miranda: I'm sure he's tried, but Niket's one of the few people who understands what my father is really like.
Miranda: I trusted him with my life when I ran from my father, Shepard. He won't betray me now.

Elevator conversation 2:
Shepard: Did Niket know that you took Oriana from your father?
Miranda: No, he just found out about that recently.
Miranda: It was too personal to involve someone else.
Miranda: I never really thought about it, but maybe... no. He'd have to understand why I did it. He knows what I went through.

I'd say that makes Niket appear in a really bad light. And the killing: he is a loose end and has already betrayed Miranda and Oriana once. Would you trust him after that when he says he won't do it again? Some would, perhaps, but killing him can be justified.

Miranda was wrong about one aspect of Niket, why can't she be wrong about how much he knew? Or perhaps believed?

[medicine]

Ryzaki wrote...

medicine wrote...that much vitriol against her. He's just a rat that sold her out , because of the money, and hurt feelings, he doesn't hate her. Plus he feels guilty. He didn't even reached a gun, when she hesitated (the moment that Shep uses to.. grab it. It's long enough).

If he was just a rat that sold her out he would've done it a while ago. (remember her father has been offering him money since Miranda first escaped) Her lying to him was probably the straw that broke the camel's back. And chances are Miranda's father is very charasmatic and manipulative it wouldn't be difficult for someone like Niket to be manipulated by "Look at all she's lied to you about! You think she didn't lie about me too?" And being lied to for years...I can see how his trust in Miranda would be horribly damaged. It's not like she lied about something minor. (He probably would've understood if she told him immediately but she didn't. Why? She didn't trust him? Why didn't she?) and it would probably snowball until he was easily coerced into giving Mr. Lawson exactly what he wanted. The money was a part of it yes but Miranda's lack of explaining herself played a role as well.

Wasn't a good decision and he should've spoken to Miranda instead of running to Lawson but I can see why he'd do it.

That doesn't make him spike highter then rat <_< He didn't do it before, because he liked Miranda, he felt bad for her - his trust got crushed, and next thing we know, he ran sulking to her father, offering his assistance. Instead of running straight to Miranda, to get answers. Isn't that suspicious? And convenient - he could say to himself, that he isn't a jerk, because she kindnapped a kid! She's bad, he's helping to rescue Oriana and give her a "proper" home.

But I agree that this miscomunication is annoying - "He surely understands! I haven't told him anything but he must.", and his "She'll be happier with her father because he's rich trololo. Oh and I took his money *sad voice* but don't you dare to judge me!"
 

Modifié par medicine, 08 décembre 2011 - 09:02 .

[HK-90210]

Ryzaki wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...
Here's how most of my Shepards try to rationlize that(this took me a while, let me tell you). The primary difference between the deaths of Niket and Sidonis is the consequences. Niket being alive means that Oriana is in more danger, which is a bigger draw on Miranda than potential guilt over killing him. Wheras Sidonis is no threat to anyone if you leave him alive, and it's better for Garrus than killing him, as the whole thing is affecting his judgement and his personal stance on the value of life and morality. Killing Niket is a reasoned decision on Miranda's part. Killing Sidonis is a crisis of character for Garrus. Different situations, different solutions.

Plus, leaving Sidonis alive is a great punisment for him. Fact is, the only way I can see Sidonis making up for what he's done is saving Garrus's family on Palavern when the Reapers show up. This is not something from the leak, just pure guesswork on my part.

I'm stealing this.

But this rationalization is perfect for my Sheps I hope you don't mind me snatching it.

Absolutely, glad I could help!  I remember having to come up with it, saving Sidonis for about the 5th time, and I realized that that very same Shepard let Miranda shoot Niket in cold blood(Edit: and told Jacob they could 'spare the ammo' for his father). So I sat there for like 20 minutes, the little dialogue wheel with the options to "stand aside" and let Sidonis die, or the paragon "Don't do it, Garrus" option just sitting there on the screen.

In the time to took me to rationalize, Garrus could have picked himself up, found another sniper's spot and made the whole decision moot. Makes me glad the conversation system isn't in real time.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 08 décembre 2011 - 08:48 .

[MisterJB]

Unused Miranda line on the Collector Cruiser.
http://www.youtube.c...jzk1Jqk#t=2m18s

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 décembre 2011 - 09:06 .

[Dr. Doctor]

I let Miranda shoot Niket. If only for the line "I'll miss you Niket (pulls trigger) figurativley speaking"

[naledgeborn]

So... feelings on a Kasumi like DLC deal for Miranda. Complete with full squad mate status. Yay, nay?

Modifié par naledgeborn, 08 décembre 2011 - 09:30 .

[jtav]

Not going to happen. I'd play it in a heartbeat though

[naledgeborn]

Might not make it out the door but with DLC "anything is possible". Not saying it will happen but 3 months to go.

I'd be less than obliged to pay the 540-800 MS points. But I'd get it day one.

[Ryzaki]

CastonFolarus wrote...

Absolutely, glad I could help!  I remember having to come up with it, saving Sidonis for about the 5th time, and I realized that that very same Shepard let Miranda shoot Niket in cold blood(Edit: and told Jacob they could 'spare the ammo' for his father). So I sat there for like 20 minutes, the little dialogue wheel with the options to "stand aside" and let Sidonis die, or the paragon "Don't do it, Garrus" option just sitting there on the screen.

In the time to took me to rationalize, Garrus could have picked himself up, found another sniper's spot and made the whole decision moot. Makes me glad the conversation system isn't in real time.

Oh yes I forgot those Sheps tend to leave Jacob's dad to the mercy of his crew (I just love his face when Shep walks away). So yeah Garrus probably is screaming "WHAT THE HELL?!?" 

 

medicine wrote...
That doesn't make him spike highter then rat [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]
He didn't do it before, because he liked Miranda, he felt bad for her -
his trust got crushed, and next thing we know, he ran sulking to her
father, offering his assistance. Instead of running straight to Miranda,
to get answers. Isn't that suspicious? And convenient - he could say to
himself, that he isn't a jerk, because she kindnapped a kid! She's bad,
he's helping to rescue Oriana and give her a "proper" home.

But I
agree that this miscomunication is annoying - "He surely understands! I
haven't told him anything but he must.", and his "She'll be happier
with her father because he's rich trololo. Oh and I took his money *sad
voice* but don't you dare to judge me!"
 

To me it
does. It's just as suspicious that Miranda doesn't explain herself
from the jump. So yes I can see why he'd do that. This isn't a
communication fumble on only one party .

Eh I didn't find the money to be that big of a deal. If it was just about money he could've gotten paid a long time ago.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 décembre 2011 - 09:38 .

[Ieldra]

naledgeborn wrote...
So... feelings on a Kasumi like DLC deal for Miranda. Complete with full squad mate status. Yay, nay?

I'd buy it. But it's not going to happen. Nor is the DLC I'm dreaming of: a mission featuring some of the stuff Miranda's doing offscreen in the main game, letting us play as Miranda.

[medicine]

Maybe he didn't need it desperately before.
And it isn't suspicious. The less people knew, the better. It was just dumb to rely on his ability to understand, without any filing in, but she was counting on the old friendship. Which doesn't make it any less dumber but at least understandable.
All right, shutting up.

And I would pay for this DLC in a heartbeat.

Modifié par medicine, 08 décembre 2011 - 09:57 .

[naledgeborn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'd buy it. But it's not going to happen. Nor is the DLC I'm dreaming of: a mission featuring some of the stuff Miranda's doing offscreen in the main game, letting us play as Miranda.

Never say never. The fans got "Witch Hunt" because of the rage/demand. Nevermind that it sucked we still got it in the end.

[feliciano2040]

CastonFolarus wrote...

He knows that he is capable of holding a person against their will. Niket helped Miranda escape from her father. He is not completely ignorant of what he is capable of.

That doesn't mean he can't disagree with her actions, specially when being kept in the dark.

Same as before, idiots don't deserve to die.

CastonFolarus wrote...

I've always seen it as a very calculating, prudent decision on her part. Yes, at the basis of it is her protectiveness of Oriana, so it isn't entirely rational. But given Miranda's goal(Keeping Oriana away from her father so she can make her own way in life), it seems the option with the least amount of risk to Oriana. And Niket is not an innocent man, IMO.

Okay, even if you didn't think he was innocent, he still doesn't deserve to die, there is still a choice, there is still a solution, which doesn't involve gunning people down because "they sold you out".

I love Miranda, but she could've taken a few measures, she should've talked to Niket before or after taking Oriana away from her father, I don't blame her for not talking to him, she couldn't have foreseen this situation would emerge in the future, but I don't blame Niket either for thinking Miranda wasn't doing something right.

The thing to understand here, the most important part, is that Niket thought that Miranda didn't really have it that bad because she was rich, there is a difference of opinion, and it is one that Niket bases his line of thinking on.

Remember, even WE don't know what Miranda went through, I'm not going to downplay her or disbelief her words, but isn't it curious that Niket thinks she didn't have it that bad ? Doesn't that pique your interest ?

CastonFolarus wrote...

He might not have known about the abuse, or Miranda's father's intenntions. I doubt he had no inkling of them, but it is possible. But he did know that Miranda's father tried to keep her against her will, and that he could very well do the same to Oriana.

Well, as Ieldra2 pointed out, Miranda claims he did know about what Miranda's father did !

That dirty Niket !

Still, assuming that he knew, the situation changes very little to me, in my humble opinion.

He is still an idiot, only nosier and now with more poor judgements to his name, he still doesn't deserve to be shot down out of spite.

CastonFolarus wrote...

Why are you assuming that I hold every action of every person to the exact same set of simplistic principles? Many different factors and variables combine to make up how I judge the morality of someone's actions. Niket decided to kidnap an adult woman from her family and give her to a man he knew would not have her best interests at heart, and would prevent her from living a free life. Reasons be damned, he knew that much, and IMO, he deserved to die because of that.

I'm not assuming anything, you're the one who's claiming people should die simply because they are taking the rights of someone else, you complain about Niket abusing the rights of Oriana (which he is, no doubt about that), but you continuously support the decision to kill him on those standards, I'm not assuming anything friend, those are your words.

Besides, you're also missing how Niket thinks she will have a better life, he is not selling anyone out simply in regards to the bounty, if he was, then he would've let Enyala handle the entire deal instead of having to deal with traveling bureaucracy and concerning himself about the family, if he really wanted the money he wouldn't have offered to risk his life in attempting to lie to Oriana's father.  

He wasn't going to "...give her to a man he knew would not have her best interests at heart", he just disagreed, he didn't thought Miranda had it that bad, and for that you're willing to kill him.

[MisterJB]

He is probrably better off dead, anyway. I tremble at the tought of what Mr. Lawson would do to him to make absolutely sure he didn't know more than he was letting on.
Also, Miranda never wanting to see you again is a fate far worse than death.

[feliciano2040]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nor is the DLC I'm dreaming of: a mission featuring some of the stuff Miranda's doing offscreen in the main game, letting us play as Miranda.

..........................................

Do you love Mass Effect ? Or just Miranda  ?

[medicine]

*grabs feliciano*
I'm sure I can give you a better life! And we'll work on your understanding of what "selling out" means 
You'll thank me later

Modifié par medicine, 08 décembre 2011 - 10:21 .

[feliciano2040]

medicine wrote...

*grabs feliciano*
I'm sure I can give you a better life! And we'll work on your understanding of what "selling out" means 
You'll thank me later

Nice to meet your good sir, even if you are quite creepy...

[medicine]

Just pointing out something. But I don't think I'm annoying enough 
And you'll need to reconsider that "sir" 

Modifié par medicine, 08 décembre 2011 - 10:30 .

[desispark]

<--- Would pay for Miranda DLC day one. Highly unlikely it's going to happen though.

[feliciano2040]

medicine wrote...

Just pointing out something. But I don't think I'm annoying enough 
And you'll need to reconsider that "sir" 

If it's about Niket, I don't agree with his actions, but neither do I believe he deserves to die, as much as I love Miranda.

And I will reconsider, good animal it is then  !

[medicine]

feliciano2040 wrote...

medicine wrote...

Just pointing out something. But I don't think I'm annoying enough 
And you'll need to reconsider that "sir" 

If it's about Niket, I don't agree with his actions, but neither do I believe he deserves to die, as much as I love Miranda.

And I will reconsider, good animal it is then  !

 

It's not like I tried to convince you otherwise. But I have issues with "He though it was for her good, so ok, made a mistake, matter of opinion, no big deal - and playing good cop totally justifies his participation in kidnapping". 

Modifié par medicine, 08 décembre 2011 - 10:52 .

[HK-90210]

feliciano2040 wrote...
Okay, even if you didn't think he was innocent, he still doesn't deserve to die, there is still a choice, there is still a solution, which doesn't involve gunning people down because "they sold you out".

Of course there are choices, just not better ones, IMO. And there are more reasons to gun Niket than simply out of spite or revenge. Oriana is safer with him dead.

feliciano2040 wrote...
Remember, even WE don't know what Miranda went through, I'm not going to downplay her or disbelief her words, but isn't it curious that Niket thinks she didn't have it that bad ? Doesn't that pique your interest ?

I trust Miranda's story more than Niket's judgment.

feliciano2040 wrote...
Still, assuming that he knew, the situation changes very little to me, in my humble opinion.

He is still an idiot, only nosier and now with more poor judgements to his name, he still doesn't deserve to be shot down out of spite.

He isn't being shot down out of spite, he is being shot down because that is the safer, more prudent option as far as Oriana's safety, which is Miranda's(and all of my Shepard's) primary concern. The fact that Niket deserves to die only makes that decision easier, as far as I am concerned.

feliciano2040 wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

Why are you assuming that I hold every action of every person to the exact same set of simplistic principles? Many different factors and variables combine to make up how I judge the morality of someone's actions. Niket decided to kidnap an adult woman from her family and give her to a man he knew would not have her best interests at heart, and would prevent her from living a free life. Reasons be damned, he knew that much, and IMO, he deserved to die because of that.

I'm not assuming anything, you're the one who's claiming people should die simply because they are taking the rights of someone else, you complain about Niket abusing the rights of Oriana (which he is, no doubt about that), but you continuously support the decision to kill him on those standards, I'm not assuming anything friend, those are your words.

I am not. I am saying that Niket, and only Niket, should die because he was willing to ruin an innocent woman's life by giving her to a man who wanted to control her. That is more than simply "taking the rights of someone else". That's selling them into slavery. And slavers deserve nothing better than death.

feliciano2040 wrote...
He wasn't going to "...give her to a man he knew would not have her best interests at heart", he just disagreed, he didn't thought Miranda had it that bad, and for that you're willing to kill him.

Oriana(an adult), deserved the chance to decide for herself, and Niket didn't give her that chance. I don't see how anyone can know Miranda so well, and be as familiar with what she has gone through as Niket, and not provide that. It proves that he did not give a damn about Oriana. He was making this decision based on spite, greed and poor judgment, not because it was in Oriana's best interests. He knew the consequnces of forcing Oriana to go to her father, and he did it anyway. And for that, yes, I believe he deserves to die.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 08 décembre 2011 - 10:48 .

[feliciano2040]

medicine wrote...

"It was for her good. And Niket playing good cop totally justifies his participation in kidnapping". 

Niket is a hypocrite who thinks one can actually reconcile bribery and kidnapping and still think it's the "right thing to do", when he said "Don't get holy with me Miri ! You took his money for years !" I wanted to slap him.

But it does say something about him that he went out of his way to ensure Enyala didn't go crazy on Oriana and her family. Some part of him still wanted to do what was right.

[Ryzaki]

medicine wrote...

Maybe he didn't need it desperately before.
And it isn't suspicious. The less people knew, the better. It was just dumb to rely on his ability to understand, without any filing in, but she was counting on the old friendship. Which doesn't make it any less dumber but at least understandable.
All right, shutting up.

And I would pay for this DLC in a heartbeat.

It *is* suspicious to Niket that she didn't decide to tell him until now. They were close, he's the one who helped her escape. She decided to kidnap a baby and didn't even give him a headsup. Then when she wants him to help her out (16+ years later mind) she doesn't bother explaining why she did it! Yes that is suspicious.

It's not like she had to tell him Oriana's location when she was explaining to him about what she did! I could see her putting it off for a few years until she was sure Oriana was well hidden and she had to capacity to move her if it became necessary. It's not like Mr. Lawson didn't know Miranda took Oriana. Niket having that information means nothing. Except that Miranda trusted him enough to tell him. Which she apparently didn't.

As for the money meh I'm not sure of that one way or the other. If he was really deseperate he could've asked Miranda to help him. They were old friends. It's not like she wouldn't have tried.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 décembre 2011 - 11:01 .

[medicine]

Ryzaki wrote...
It *is* suspicious to Niket that she didn't decide to tell him until now. They were close, he's the one who helped her escape.

As for the money meh I'm not sure of that one way or the other. If he was really deseperate he could've asked Miranda to help him. They were old friends. It's not like she wouldn't have tried.

Not sure why he didn't. Maybe Cerberus was the issue. 
You knowm only "suspicious" doesn't provoke immidiete betrayal, just questions. And he didn't tried to contact her. Why, oh why Niket? 

Niket is a hypocrite who thinks one can actually reconcile bribery and kidnapping and still think it's the "right thing to do", when he said "Don't get holy with me Miri ! You took his money for years !" I wanted to slap him.

But it does say something about him that he went out of his way to ensure Enyala didn't go crazy on Oriana and her family. Some part of him still wanted to do what was right.

Guilt was eating him alive. It's good, doesn't make me think better of him, but he's got some conscience, which is better for making it harder decision then encountering a laughing Sith.

Modifié par medicine, 08 décembre 2011 - 11:08 .