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[CrutchCricket]

feliciano2040 wrote...
Do people just like to complain about absolutely everything ?

Not to be mean or anything, but how many games out there actually introduce great moral dilemmas while also making sure you're having a blast with the gameplay ?

Give the game it's credit where it's due man.

None of them do, that's the point. Moral choice in games is a joke. There are always two paths, two options. One is the light/saintly/"good" side and the other is the dark/"evil"/d!ckhead side with nothing in between and no refinement beyond that. As far as gameplay it's just a cheap mechanic to keep you playing the same game twice to "see the other side".

Has nothing to do with enjoyment and the Mass Effect Series has obviously taken the "choice" part a bit further. But really, it has nothing to do with morality either. Look at the Collector Base. For all the arguments that's generated how many of them have been directly game-content related or indeed "moral" at all? Most of it boils down to "can Cerberus be trusted with it" and it's all lore-focused. Still entertaining but let's just be clear on where that entertainment is coming from.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 11 décembre 2011 - 03:24 .

[Ryzaki]

flemm wrote...

Well, I think the idea is... once you eat it, you no longer have it. Originally, I believe it was "eat your cake and have it, too," which makes the meaning clearer.

I really hate metaphors.

The only thing that makes me wonder is why not just make more cake if you're that hungry. That and what good is a cake if you're not gonna eat it it'll just get old and nasty.

Gah metaphors.

[Dr. Doctor]

I sort of picture Mr. Lawson having being quite a bit like Miranda personality wise. I sort of picture him having similar views about Cerberus' goals like Miranda, except that idealism is tempered with his own egotism. After all, if he can figure out how to bring humanity to its genetic pinnacle history will remember him as one of the greatest scientists who ever lived, and his legacy will be carried on in the genetic code of every human who recieves his enhancements.

The key thing is that like Miranda he's dedicated to his work, but unlike her he's doing for himself, not for humanity. Think Arik Soong from Star Trek.

Modifié par Dr. Doctor, 11 décembre 2011 - 03:45 .

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

The reason I framed the choice as I did is because her father is a child abuser--a child murderer--who is so rich he can get away with his crimes. His sins cry out to heaven for vengeance. And your trusted friend/lover wants him dead so he can't repeat it. If there was ever a time when the Spectres' summary execution power was morally justified, this is it. And yet, the rat's useful. His resources could tip the balance of the war and save trillions of lives. So, what's it to be? Do you follow your head or your heart?

This is little different from the beginning of ME2; the Lawson patriarch's crimes pale next to the magnitude of TIM's evil. My decision is exactly the same: deal with the human bastard after the Space Cthulhus are beaten (unless his war assets are mutually exclusive with anyone else's, in which case I'll dump him like a hot potato).

[feliciano2040]

CrutchCricket wrote...

None of them do, that's the point. Moral choice in games is a joke. There are always two paths, two options. One is the light/saintly/"good" side and the other is the dark/"evil"/d!ckhead side with nothing in between and no refinement beyond that. As far as gameplay it's just a cheap mechanic to keep you playing the same game twice to "see the other side".

And here was I thinking Mass Effect had actually diverted from the traditional "Light Vs. Dark" choices in favor of "Idealism Vs. Pragmatism", silly me I guess  !

Look, I'm not one to defend parts of the game that could've been better handled, sure, the rachni decision didn't have to be exclusively bilateral, but it still was a great choice, it was a powerful moral dilemma that left hundreds and hundreds of pages worth of mighty fine discussion, could it have been better handled ? Sure, but it's not like everything was poorly made.

As for the gameplay, I was talking about how many games offer third-person shooting that is as good, if not better, than games like Gears Of War, while still offering an incredibly inmersive experience ?

I dislike Mr. Hudson and Walters as much as the next guy, but they have done well for the most part.

CrutchCricket wrote...

Look at the Collector Base. For all the arguments that's generated how many of them have been directly game-content related or indeed "moral" at all? Most of it boils down to "can Cerberus be trusted with it" and it's all lore-focused. Still entertaining but let's just be clear on where that entertainment is coming from.

Uhm, what ?

Friend, the Collector Base decision IS a moral dilemma, wether people make arguments that do not pertain to morality doesn't make it any less of a moral issue, you can't blame the makers for what fans choose or not to discuss you know ?

[Xilizhra]

And here was I thinking Mass Effect had actually diverted from the traditional "Light Vs. Dark" choices in favor of "Idealism Vs. Pragmatism", silly me I guess

Indeed. Both may be pragmatic.

[feliciano2040]

Xilizhra wrote...

And here was I thinking Mass Effect had actually diverted from the traditional "Light Vs. Dark" choices in favor of "Idealism Vs. Pragmatism", silly me I guess

Indeed. Both may be pragmatic.

Both ? Paragon and Renegade you mean ?

[Xilizhra]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And here was I thinking Mass Effect had actually diverted from the traditional "Light Vs. Dark" choices in favor of "Idealism Vs. Pragmatism", silly me I guess

Indeed. Both may be pragmatic.

Both ? Paragon and Renegade you mean ?

Indeed. I believe it's "idealism vs. expediency." Which is more pragmatic is personal.

[CrutchCricket]

feliciano2040 wrote...

And here was I thinking Mass Effect had actually diverted from the traditional "Light Vs. Dark" choices in favor of "Idealism Vs. Pragmatism", silly me I guess  !

Your mincing words does nothing to disprove the faux dualism imposed on any moral choice game systems. Sure it's not exactly light vs dark here. Mass Effect has shifted ever so slightly to one side. But the mechanics are the same. And there's no denying that top choices are usually "good" whether morally good or simply "touchy-feely" good while bottom choices are usually  bad/douchebaggy. I might even say that for every "rachni queen", there's a "talk to your sister Miranda" though I doubt the ratios are that even.

And why are you jumping to conclusions that I'm dissing Mass Effect and rushing to defend it like I'm about to bleitzkreig the **** out of it? I'm making a general point about all moral choice systems in all games that have them and I'm acknowledging that Bioware has taken a step in the right direction. Besides I'm a little kid with a pea shooter compared to the Bioware war machine, I think they have bigger fish to fry. Shepard would have better luck punching out a Reaper than I would in getting just one of their janitors to lose some sleep.

Friend, the Collector Base decision IS a moral dilemma, wether people make arguments that do not pertain to morality doesn't make it any less of a moral issue, you can't blame the makers for what fans choose or not to discuss you know ?

Meh. Interesting question though. Is a dilemma still a dilemma if no one actually sweats it?

[Ryzaki]

Eh I admit ME sometimes plays similarly to KOTOR when it comes to morality. It's pretty similar to Jedi (warm fuzzy feelings) and Sith (you cackle manically as your character kicks a puppy in the face or force chokes an annoying douchebag and you lead your companions down the Dark Side (especially apparent on Jack's loyalty mission with the whole "you're a killer that's what you do." spiel. I was expecting Sith Lord music in the background). Most of the time it averts it...but...yeah.

Maybe ME3 will be a bit more balanced.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 décembre 2011 - 05:05 .

[CrutchCricket]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh I admit ME sometimes plays similarly to KOTOR when it comes to morality. It's pretty similar to Jedi (warm fuzzy feelings) and Sith (you cackle manically as your character kicks a puppy in the face or force chokes an annoying douchebag and you lead your companions down the Dark Side (especially apparent on Jack's loyalty mission with the whole "you're a killer that's what you do." spiel. I was expecting Sith Lord music in the background). Most of the time it averts it...but...yeah.

Maybe ME3 will be a bit more balanced.

Especially since you sort of make Shepard look like a Sith Lord... if only his eyes glowed yellow instead of red.

[Xilizhra]

I still want my Paragon's eyes to glow blue.

[Ryzaki]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Especially since you sort of make Shepard look like a Sith Lord... if only his eyes glowed yellow instead of red.

I despised the sith lord transformations. That was the first thing I modded out.

Why evil gotta be ugly? 

And the force lightening excuse doesn't work because my PC started looking like a zombie before I even got that ability.

Just kept the Sith Lord eyes and called it a day. You can still tell they're evil but they don't look like someone rubbed ash all over their face.

Though Paragon Shep's eyes glowing blue while Renegade's eyes glowed red (without the silly skin cracking) would've been awesome.

Xilizhra wrote...
The dark side saps vitality.

Is it explained why? I
get the force lightening excuse (obviously your body will suffer if you
keep expelling lightening from it). But why does the DS sap vitality?

And sorry about hijacking the thread about SW peeps.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 décembre 2011 - 05:13 .

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
Especially since you sort of make Shepard look like a Sith Lord... if only his eyes glowed yellow instead of red.

I despised the sith lord transformations. That was the first thing I modded out.

Why evil gotta be ugly? 

And the force lightening excuse doesn't work because my PC started looking like a zombie before I even got that ability.

The dark side saps vitality.

[Dr. Doctor]

The issue with Paragon/Renegade is that your decisions break down into either being "right" or "wrong".

"I went and destroyed the rachni queen on Noveria"

Sorry buddy, even though that sounds like a pragmatic choice you just lost yourself an ally against the Reapers.

"Alright but surely choosing the Human Council option does something?"

Yet again bad move, not only don't you ever see the Human Council, they pretty much do the same thing the old Council does in ME2. At least with this choice you get the added bonus of most of the races hating humanity.

"Okay so I kept the Collector Base."

Well crap, looks like Cerberus screwed up again. They're indoctrinated now, nice job.

"Fine then I'll just blow up the Base, that should change something!"

You'd like to think that wouldn't you? Turns out Cerberus goes in and studies the wreckage and guess what? They get indoctrinated. Nice job breaking it hero.


Pretty much Renagade choices don't get you any sort of benefit while Paragon lines always seem to make things better. There aren't any Paragon decisions that I know of that result in a "bad" outcome, meanwhile most Renegade decisions tend to bite you in the ass later on.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

I still want my Paragon's eyes to glow blue.

Really?

[Xilizhra]

Sorry buddy, even though that sounds like a pragmatic choice you just lost yourself an ally against the Reapers.

A risk always taken when killing something.

Yet again bad move, not only don't you ever see the Human Council, they pretty much do the same thing the old Council does in ME2. At least with this choice you get the added bonus of most of the races hating humanity.

The new Council doesn't want to get too close to a regicide. Also, they're just human-led, not all human.

"Okay so I kept the Collector Base."

Well crap, looks like Cerberus screwed up again. They're indoctrinated now, nice job.

"Fine then I'll just blow up the Base, that should change something!"

You'd like to think that wouldn't you? Turns out Cerberus goes in and studies the wreckage and guess what? They get indoctrinated. Nice job breaking it hero.

I don't believe either is true.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I still want my Paragon's eyes to glow blue.

Really?

I accept physical parallels. It arguably makes things more interesting. Though I was more thinking of Saren.

[CrutchCricket]

Ryzaki wrote...
I despised the sith lord transformations. That was the first thing I modded out.

Why evil gotta be ugly? 

And the force lightening excuse doesn't work because my PC started looking like a zombie before I even got that ability.

Cuz evil corrupts yo!

Seriously it does make sense in Star Wars because it's the dark side itself that wears the body out and not just Force lightning. I haven't played through KOTOR in its entirety so if they implemented that too early that's a game mistake. But lore-wise it does happen though it can take years before any serious physical damage is apparent.

But yeah it's kind of annoying in ME2 since in my last playthroughs I used Gibbed to keep me even on the morality meters and my scars never went away.

[Ryzaki]

Saren's eyes glowed blue?

CrutchCricket wrote...
Cuz evil corrupts yo!

Seriously
it does make sense in Star Wars because it's the dark side itself that
wears the body out and not just Force lightning. I haven't played
through KOTOR in its entirety so if they implemented that too early
that's a game mistake. But lore-wise it does happen though it can take
years before any serious physical damage is apparent.

But yeah
it's kind of annoying in ME2 since in my last playthroughs I used Gibbed
to keep me even on the morality meters and my scars never went away.

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Laaaame. So evil makes you ugly. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie] Meanwhile good makes you glow. Bleh SW. Bleh.

See
the thing is I think the first 2 levels of scaring are perfect for my
renedouche. It's only once he starts looking like the terminator that I
go. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie] If only you could freeze the level of scarring no matter what your renegade level was. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie] Instead it's either get rid of it completely or become...that. (or stick to the middle of the scales).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 décembre 2011 - 05:18 .

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Saren's eyes glowed blue?

Indeed, though it was somewhat subtler.

[CrutchCricket]

Yeah you could tell they were mechanical. Especially near the end.

As for why the dark side wears the body out I could explain it via PM but most of my info could be found on Wookiepedia anyway so you could just cut out the middleman (me) and check there.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 11 décembre 2011 - 05:19 .

[CrutchCricket]

Ryzaki wrote...
If only you could freeze the level of scarring no matter what your renegade level was. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie] Instead it's either get rid of it completely or become...that. (or stick to the middle of the scales).

Try looking at the ratio of paragon/renegade points for your desired level of scarring. Like I said I used Gibbed to keep me even (paragon=renegade) and my scars stayed pretty much constant. In theory it should be possible to keep a ratio other than 1:1 to maintain a level of scarring. So if 5:1 (example) gives you some scars but not yet terminator-level, always make sure your points align to that ratio. Of course this will fluctuate as the game itself adds points. Just be sure to modify the points as needed before you start up teh game each time.

[Ryzaki]

Ah thanks for the advice. I do like my renedouche with some scars.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The new Council doesn't want to get too close to a regicide. Also, they're just human-led, not all human.

The human-lead Council  discrediting the Reaper threat makes no sense because it was the fear that this threat caused on the alien populations that allowed humans to seize power in the first place.