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[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

I was thinking more of her on-mission advice. Things like Veetor, selling Legion, and leaving Grunt in the tank. Which lead to less than optimal outcomes.

What's your take on this by the way? Why do so many of her recommendations lead to less than optimal situations? Is it just a matter of playing it safe?

Since I've been silent for a while I'll also repost (Ieldra's repost thanks for that lol) this, one of my favorite Miranda moments:

Ieldra2 wrote...

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 17 décembre 2011 - 03:52 .

[jtav]

Playing it safe mixed with Wrong Genre Savvy. She acts as if she's in a much grittier universe. Awakening a krogan is risky. The geth have been enemies until now. We know as players that these gambles pay off. She doesn't.

[CrutchCricket]

I think on the whole she's less of a risk taker than Shepard (even though Shepard can potentially agree with her and not gamble) and more so she's more likely to play by the rules (provided she agrees with the institution that has said rules). She seems very precise and methodical so she'd feel more comfortable within a framework of procedures.

[feliciano2040]

jtav wrote...

Playing it safe mixed with Wrong Genre Savvy. She acts as if she's in a much grittier universe. Awakening a krogan is risky. The geth have been enemies until now. We know as players that these gambles pay off. She doesn't.

Not necessarily, I've always gone the other way on plenty of her advices because of what I believe is "the correct" choice.

Obviously some decisions DO pay off, like awakening Grunt and keeping Legion.

But telling her to talk to her sister ? The pay-off is the worth the risk.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
I have one. Gave Veetor to Cerberus, kept Grunt in his tank, didn't give Jack the files, suggested Miranda speak to Oriana but when she argued against it didn't press the issue, sold Legion to Cerberus and didn't send anyone with the crew.

If you could only Jack getting thefiles. Were I not constrained by the game, I'd have removed her from the ship after stealing those data. 

I think the only thing left would be to not go through the Omega 4 Relay imediatelly after the kidnap.

There's no conflict in most of my games, since I usually finish up all recruitment and loyalty missions before Reaper IFF. Thus: Miranda says there's no reason to delay after the crew abduction.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Playing it safe mixed with Wrong Genre Savvy. She acts as if she's in a much grittier universe. Awakening a krogan is risky. The geth have been enemies until now. We know as players that these gambles pay off. She doesn't.

Wrong Genre Savvy, especially, I think, for the deceisions like Grunt and the Geth. A lot of Miranda's recommendations in these areas make sense except when you remember that it's an heroic fantasy, essentially, where everything the hero does works out for the best.

The Grunt example is a good one in that she specifically mentions close quarters not being the best because of the Krogan fighting style, so even moving the tank around, or changing the situation would have made sense, prior to releasing Grunt.

Modifié par flemm, 17 décembre 2011 - 05:50 .

[feliciano2040]

Ieldra2 wrote...

If you could only Jack getting thefiles. Were I not constrained by the game, I'd have removed her from the ship after stealing those data.

..............................right, let's dump the matriarch-level human biotic out the airlock for stealing data  !

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
If you could only Jack getting thefiles. Were I not constrained by the game, I'd have removed her from the ship after stealing those data. 

I wouldn't go that far but it should have been an option with appropriate consequences. For example, if Shepard didn't give Jack the files, it would be impossible to gain her loyalty.

Speaking of giving Veetor to Cerberus.






Edit: Wearing Cerberus Armor on the Quarian Flotilla. LIKE A BOSS!

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 décembre 2011 - 06:07 .

[Ieldra]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

If you could only Jack getting thefiles. Were I not constrained by the game, I'd have removed her from the ship after stealing those data.

..............................right, let's dump the matriarch-level human biotic out the airlock for stealing data  !

At that point, you don't have the foreknowledge that she's loyal and useful. The way Jack introduces herself, she's a *hostile* super-biotic who just uses Shepard to get off Purgatory, and I'd always judge her too volatile, especially on a Cerberus-sponsored mission. You come to appreciate her, but I hate that the game forces me to keep her, and the way it forces me to do it.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
If you could only Jack getting thefiles. Were I not constrained by the game, I'd have removed her from the ship after stealing those data. 

I wouldn't go that far but it should have been an option with appropriate consequences. For example, if Shepard didn't give Jack the files, it would be impossible to gain her loyalty.

Speaking of giving Veetor to Cerberus.

Was it a bad thing to do, giving Veetor to Cerberus? I mean, what are the benefits to giving Veetor to Cerberus? Can you explain how it's better, especially with the growing relationship with Miri?

[feliciano2040]

^ Loving Miranda...............it's tough sometimes !

[jtav]

It provides no benefit, other than giving a nice character moment for Miranda if you bring her along. Paragon provides a way to get the best outcome at Tali's trial without persuade.

[feliciano2040]

Ieldra2 wrote...

At that point, you don't have the foreknowledge that she's loyal and useful. The way Jack introduces herself, she's a *hostile* super-biotic who just uses Shepard to get off Purgatory, and I'd always judge her too volatile, especially on a Cerberus-sponsored mission. You come to appreciate her, but I hate that the game forces me to keep her, and the way it forces me to do it.

I know there are RPG's that give you massive freedom, but is it really so wrong that the game directs you into getting to know some characters ? After all, if it was about freedom I could complain about fighting the collectors ! Given how I'm a misanthropic person I could demand my right to want to join the reapers ! Dammit !

Also, you do know the extent of her abilities due to her dossier, you also don't know if you're going to get another biotic specialist, AND if destroying a Ymir Mech with a single punch is not proof enough of the extent of her powers, then you're just being silly  !

Modifié par feliciano2040, 17 décembre 2011 - 06:15 .

[MisterJB]

feliciano2040 wrote...

^ Loving Miranda...............it's tough sometimes !

You do what you have to do. How many humans would dissapear while Cerberus was doing its best to make Veetor feel at home?

Cerberus used brute force medicine to keep him in a lucid state so he could be questioned. But it was not torture.

[jtav]

She's also exactly the kind of person who would sabotage the mission. I'd prefer it if you had to recruit Mordin + any seven. Make it clear the player needs a tech and biotic, but allow them not to recruit one and pay the price.

[Mediciine]

Ieldra2 wrote...

feliciano2040 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

If you could only Jack getting thefiles. Were I not constrained by the game, I'd have removed her from the ship after stealing those data.

..............................right, let's dump the matriarch-level human biotic out the airlock for stealing data  !

At that point, you don't have the foreknowledge that she's loyal and useful. The way Jack introduces herself, she's a *hostile* super-biotic who just uses Shepard to get off Purgatory, and I'd always judge her too volatile, especially on a Cerberus-sponsored mission. You come to appreciate her, but I hate that the game forces me to keep her, and the way it forces me to do it.

^True
Just like it forces Shepard to be understanding about Miranda's defense of Cerberus, or never fully debate with Thane about his philosophy.
Or is always at peace with getting killed while saving Joker, who doesn't seem to remember a whole thing (that's what you can guess from dialogues from ME2. Good it's somehow solved - as Shepard's dying angst, and stress, and from what we've see so far, expressions - in ME3).
And that's barely a start of the list.

Modifié par Mediciine, 17 décembre 2011 - 06:34 .

[feliciano2040]

MisterJB wrote...

You do what you have to do. How many humans would dissapear while Cerberus was doing its best to make Veetor feel at home?

No, you already have the information from the omni-tool, and submitting a single, deranged, unreliable witness to torture is not going to save entire human colonies you know  ?

MisterJB wrote... 

Cerberus used brute force medicine to keep him in a lucid state so he could be questioned. But it was not torture.

What exactly constitutes as torture to you ?
Even then, that shouldn't be a concern to you, humans are dissapearing and "you do what you have to do"  !

Modifié par feliciano2040, 17 décembre 2011 - 06:20 .

[CrutchCricket]

Wow, how many times is the "matriarch-level Jack" thing going to come up on these threads? I've never understood where that came from. Jack's the best human biotic but that doesn't mean she can compete with the best of the asari. Not to mention the doubt as to whether "matriarch" is really a power level when it comes to biotics.
But anyway, there's a clear difference between guiding the path of the game and forcing specific details (i.e. characters) on you.

The Veetor thing was dumb. I can see why Miranda would want to question him but I got pissed that first time when I allowed it and nothing useful came of it. And like it's been said the omni-tool data can be acquired without him- which technically makes it worthless anyway since I'm sure Cerberus would've checked his omni-tool if they had him in custody. But since we're told we got nothing useful in that scenario, Veetor really has nothing to offer and detaining him is unnecessary.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 17 décembre 2011 - 06:42 .

[MisterJB]

feliciano2040 wrote...
No, you already have the information from the omni-tool, and submitting a single, deranged, unreliable witness to torture is not going to save entire human colonies you know  ?

Sadly, that deranged, unreliable witness is all we have. We need all information we can get on the Collectors and what we saw from his omni-tool was incomplete.
How were the Collectors able to land without leaving a trace? How many ships did they have? What did it look like? What kind of weaponry did it possess? Was it a frigate? A cruiser? A dreadnought?
Also, Veetor was not tortured.

What exactly constitutes as torture to you ?

All drugs Cerberus gave him were meant to stabilize him and keep him lucid, even the quarian doctor says this. 
Ad there is no reason to believe that Cerberus was purposelly starving Veetor instead of simply him being too traumatized and scared to eat.
It was not pleasant but Veetor was not tortured.

Even then, that shouldn't be a concern to you, humans are dissapearing and "you do what you have to do"  !

"Arrival"

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 décembre 2011 - 06:46 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

So you're saying that giving Veetor away was the right thing to do?

[CrutchCricket]

The reasoning for either choice is solid. The consequence of the choice (nothing good comes of it) favors letting him go.

[jtav]

Allowing Tali to take him is the most beneficial path. "Right" boils down to your personal moral code. I tend to let Cerberus have him because it means more Miranda dialogue.

[MisterJB]

Also, let's keep in the mind that the quarians might have refused to foward the data from Veetor's omni-tool.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

I'm just clueless on which decision is the right thing to do. I really want show a good impression in front of Miri, yet I don't know how much Cerberus would have gone to get the info from Veetor. I don't know what to do..

[jtav]

Do whatever you want. You're allowed to disagree with Miranda, you know.