82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Mediciine]

That depends, if you consider Shepard and Cerberus as "we". Shepard won't participate in interrogation, and has no idea, if there won't be any "rough cell" occurrence. And quarians friendship is valueble.

Somehow it made me wonder if there is anyone in charge of Cerberus as whole - didn't seem so, but it's hard to believe, there isn't anyone steering the whole thing - new cells are created, people are put of charge of them, it's all organized somehow [not enough data].

And dat art. I hope her new outfit will look like this.

Modifié par Mediciine, 17 décembre 2011 - 09:31 .

[MisterJB]

feliciano2040 wrote...
Right, so that allows you to take innocent people and submit them to illegal treatment and unwarranted questioning ?

First of all, unwarranted? When we finally find someone who witnessed the attacks on our colonies, you think questioning him is unwarranted?
And yes, we are at war. Hundreds of thousands of humans have dissapeared. That number has a lot more weight than Veetor.

You should remember that the next time the police comes into your home and demands to interrogate you even if you are in shock and it's clear you don't have any relevant information to give them  !

If I witnessed a mass murder, it would be my duty to try my best to make sure the people who did it were properly punished.

Do the collectors drink tea ? Or are they coffee people ? Do they prefer doggie-style over missionary ? Do they like basketball over football  ?
 

Now you're being silly.
MY questions were of strategic importance. Yours aren't.

You can make up endless amounts of questions to support taking Veetor, it still doesn't mean it's right.

No, not right. Necessary.

Veetor was tortured, there is absolutely no discussion about this.

Apparently there is.
 

For starters, he was taken against his will,

Being taken against one's will does not count as a torture.

he was submitted to illegal, involuntary treatments to keep him awake against his will,

The same treatments that kept him alive. There were gentler option but, apparently, those would take too long.

he was starved,

Or Cerberus offered him food and he was so scared that he couldn't eat.

and he received "injections" whenever there were "wrong answers",

The word of a clearly traumatized and demented man has no weight.

 

And all for what ?

The survival of our species. Taking Veetor not only ensures that we will gain acess to the data he recorded but Cerberus will also be able to question him in greater detail.
 

[flemm]

The justification for taking Veetor against his will and submitting him to harsh interrogation at least, and quite possibly a form of torture, is that the stakes are so high, entire colonies are being abducted, so you cross those moral lines to ensure you are doing everything you can to save large numbers of lives.

It's an "ends justify the means" type of decision, which Miranda is clearly ok with within certain bounds. She is willing to "get her hands dirty" from a purely moral perspective for the greater good. It's a perspective that one can understand, if not necessarily agree with. It also doesn't imply amorality, or even immorality, but a struggle with what constitutes the truly moral choice in that sort of situation. 

The issue with this type of choice in ME is that the existence of an option that crosses none of those conventional moral lines and produces as good or better results tends to make the more Renegade option seem gratuitous and stupid.

This is why some players are of the opinion that the game has a Paragon bias: because the game rarely, if ever, gives you better results if you violate conventional morality for pragmatic reasons.

If, for example, interrogating Veetor produced a useful piece of info that couldn't be obtained otherwise, then the whole thing would seem a lot more complicated.

For the record, I don't think the game has a Paragon bias, I think the devs don't think of Paragon/Renegade as sentiment vs. pragmatism, as quite a few Renegade players choose to define it. The reward for choosing Renegade, I think, was at least originally supposed to be the pleasure of the transgressive behavior itself, i.e. you get to do all the badass, evil, immoral thiings you want and get away with it.

This may be something the devs have become sensitive to over time, as some of the comments about ME3's choices seem to suggest that maybe this time, if you make a Renegade choice for pragmatic reasons, you actually get a practical reward for that in certain cases. We'll see.

Modifié par flemm, 17 décembre 2011 - 09:54 .

[Mediciine]

I understand. But I would prefer to be in charge of interrogation, since it's Shepard who's going to suffer consequences, if Veetor gets killed. 

Ok, Letting Veetor go justification:
Shepard can let Cerberus take Veetor. That might, or might not provided useful informations. Quarians get pissed, and less likely to trust him. Not to mention, he'll lose the trust of the person he know he can trust, and that's a lot in the current uneasy situation - back from dead, in the organization of not a good reputation to put it mildly.

On the other hand, he can give Veetor to Tali, ensure some benefit of doubt from quarians (even if he's with Cerberus), and make Tali sure, he's still Shepard (yes, I know it's more complicated then that). 
If Shepard believes the whole reaper thing to end with a war, then he knows, he'll need allies.

About Renegade: tell me about it. The fact that they called any uncanon decision "renegade" speaks for itself.

Modifié par Mediciine, 17 décembre 2011 - 10:03 .

[flemm]

@ Mediciine, I basically agree and usually have Tali take Veetor and just keep the data.

My point was simply that, with the stakes being what they are, there is definitely a rationale for making absolutely sure you have every piece of relevant info on the Collectors.

The issue from a design point of view, I think, is that the game really only rewards one of the decisions, if you look at it from a purely pragmatic standpoint. Arguably the game rewards both if you see making the transgressive decision as a reward in and of itself, but that doesn't seem to be how most players who prefer that path tend to look at it.

EDIT: Added a bunch of additional thoughts below, quite a few even Miranda-related

To use Miranda as an example: she doesn't take pleasure in wanton cruelty. Rather, she is committed to protecting humanity and saving the colonists, and therefore is willing to make some sacrifices in order to achieve those goals.

Players who prefer the Renegade path seem to be attracted to that type of perspective: the decisions don't "feel" right from the perspective of conventional morality, but they present pragmatic advantages that cannot be ignored in the name of "feeling good." These players aren't just after the cheap thrill of doing the bad, transgressive thing in the game that you would be punished for in real life.

So, in a sense, I guess you could say that players seem to make the decisions for the same type of reasons that motivate characters like Miranda in the story. And that could be why ME2 characters like TIM and Miranda have a lot of fans that don't really want them to change and either be revealed as "truly evil" or redeemed as "good at heart."

But I think the first two games were designed primarily with the idea in mind that the Renegade choice is supposed to reward itself because it is momentarily fun to be able to blow this or that NPC to hell and not get punished for it, or send Veetor off to be brutally interrogated without considering the moral issues involved.

So, in that sense, it may be a case of the devs misreading the players a bit. Or maybe not, if there are a lot of players out there who just want to play as the evil bad guys, but don't post about it on the forums.

Modifié par flemm, 17 décembre 2011 - 10:43 .

[naledgeborn]

flemm wrote...

So, in that sense, it may be a case of the devs misreading the players a bit. Or maybe not, if there are a lot of players out there who just want to play as the evil bad guys, but don't post about it on the forums.

Understatement of the BioWare decade. In a nutshell though you're right flemm... at least when it comes to the Mass Effect team. The closest they got to an "ends justifies the means" morality was the Closed Fist philosophy in Jade Empire and even then 75% of the Closed Fist path was being "evil for evil's sake".

And on that note; I may hate David Gaider and his team of writers, but I do respect them tremendously because when they can pull off "grey and gray morality" they do so beautifully.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 17 décembre 2011 - 10:57 .

[jtav]

I could die a happy woman if Gaider wrote Miranda. Then again, DA2 was my favorite BW game in terms of story and character. Pity it was nearly unplayable.

[feliciano2040]

MisterJB wrote...

First of all, unwarranted? When we finally find someone who witnessed the attacks on our colonies, you think questioning him is unwarranted? And yes, we are at war. Hundreds of thousands of humans have dissapeared. That number has a lot more weight than Veetor.

Not unwarranted, MEGA-unwarranted, SUPER-DUPER-unwarranted  !

In all seriousness, it is unwarranted, you do not have the moral right to take away someone against their will and force them to go through a violent interrogation (a reasonable assumption given what we know of Cerberus), specially on a witness who clearly is an unreliable source of information.

Besides, there is another solution, which is offering Veetor to the quarians (as many here have suggested), even though I never make that decision in regards to that criteria. The truth is that Veetor is an innocent victim who most likely has no more information about the attack, there's only poor and misguided reasons to give him to Cerberus.

MisterJB wrote... 


If I witnessed a mass murder, it would be my duty to try my best to make sure the people who did it were properly punished.

Even if you had already helped them by giving them security tapes of the people involved ? Even if you were pleading to your rights as a citizen ? Even if you were in poor health and needed assistance ?

Let's shake things up a bit, what if it wasn't the police ? What if it was the I.R.A. ? Or The People's Liberation Movement ? or any other para-military movement that wanted the information ? Because that's what Cerberus is, an independent group, outside all scope of the law, and with a very, VERY shady reputation.

MisterJB wrote... 

Now you're being silly.
MY questions were of strategic importance. Yours aren't.

It was an attempt at humor friend, relax a little 

The point is still the same, if you have good rehtoric, you can find limitless amounts of reasons to support your actions, in this case, there can be as many unanswered questions about the collectors if you so want to find them, that doesn't mean it's either right or necessary (as you said) to take Veetor.

MisterJB wrote... 

 
Being taken against one's will does not count as a torture.

Does it still make it right ? Or necessary ? Not at all.

I don't think I said "being taken against one's will WAS torture"  !

Well, if I did, it's not what I meant to say.

MisterJB wrote... 


The same treatments that kept him alive. There were gentler option but, apparently, those would take too long.

And how do I know that ? I can't simply trust Miranda, even if I steal hugs and kisses from her  !

In any case, keeping someone awake against their will is torture, and Miranda offers no proof to the contrary, except that "she had to do what she had to do", even when a disfunctional, broken quarian is standing in front of her.

MisterJB wrote... 

Or Cerberus offered him food and he was so scared that he couldn't eat.

You don't know that, even if you did, the burden of proof is on the acused, Cerberus (Miranda in this case) needs to prove they offered him food and he rejected it, since they don't, we can safely assume that they starved him.

MisterJB wrote... 

The word of a clearly traumatized and demented man has no weight.

Then why are you interrogating him in the first place if his word carries no weight ?

Seriously, if a para-military group took you and tortured you into giving information, would you like it if a court dismissed your acussations against the group on the basis that you are traumatized and demented ?

MisterJB wrote... 

The survival of our species. Taking Veetor not only ensures that we will gain acess to the data he recorded but Cerberus will also be able to question him in greater detail.

Nope, it doesn't, you may rationalize it all you want, doesn't mean it's true, and you have no proof of the contrary.

In fact, given how everything turns out if you give Veetor to Cerberus, you're quite wrong  !

But I don't like to judge actions on that angle, as they say, hindsight is 20/20.

Modifié par feliciano2040, 17 décembre 2011 - 11:09 .

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
Veetor is traumatized to the point where he sees husks and Collectors everywhere. Tali's reaction is about what you'd expect, she accuses Cerberus of being worse than the Devil.

Hmm...I must play this sometime. Maybe even with my main Shepard, who I'll replay anyway. Saving the Council wasn't in character for him.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

feliciano2040 wrote...

^ Loving Miranda...............it's tough sometimes !

It's not something I really thought much about prior to discussing it here, but I realize I really like that aspect of the relationship if the romance is active, by which I mean there's an emotional bond between the characters, but Miranda can still be very adversarial in certain situations when she thinks Shep is about to do something stupid or sub-optimal.

Which is as it should be. Love shouldn't blind you to the needs of the mission. That's a trait of Miranda's I very much like.

[feliciano2040]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Which is as it should be. Love shouldn't blind you to the needs of the mission. That's a trait of Miranda's I very much like.

Wouldn't want it any other way is well, it's great when you have such a challenging character by your side.

*Cries about ME 3*

[DynamiteDK92]

feliciano2040 wrote...
You don't know that, even if you did, the burden of proof is on the acused, Cerberus (Miranda in this case) needs to prove they offered him food and he rejected it, since they don't, we can safely assume that they starved him.

Now, I'm usually a lurker; and I have been ever since the first Miranda group, if I recall correctly, and while I don't have any particular desire to join in on yours and MisterJB's discussion, there is a particular statement in here that I simply have to address;

feliciano2040 wrote...
the burden of proof is on the accused 

You. Have. Got. To. Be. Bloody. Kidding. Me.
That statement goes against one of the most basic principles that every single judicial system in the western world is based upon.
It's like saying you would have to prove your innocence if you were ever arrested by the police, rather than the police having to prove you guilty. 
Not really related to Miranda, i know, but I had to get that off my chest.

Modifié par DynamiteDK92, 18 décembre 2011 - 12:16 .

[feliciano2040]

DynamiteDK92 wrote...


You. Have. Got. To. Be. Bloody. Kidding. Me.
That statement goes against one of the most basic principles that every single judicial system in the western world is based upon.
It's like saying you would have to prove your innocence if you were ever arrested by the police, rather than the police having to prove you guilty. 
Not really related to Miranda, i know, but I had to get that off my chest.

I maaaaaaaaaaaay have phrased that wrong  !

Hope you can understand that english is not my first language, and neither am I a lawyer, so obviously when you say it that way it's pretty clear that the burden of proof CAN'T possibly be on the accused.

What I was trying to say, is that the burden of proof, in this case, rests on Miranda and Cerberus, they say they didn't torture Veetor ? They have to come forward and prove it.

Modifié par feliciano2040, 18 décembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Which is as it should be. Love shouldn't blind you to the needs of the mission. That's a trait of Miranda's I very much like.

Oh I agree that's how it should be. Just hadn't really thought about it specifically in those terms prior to discussing it here. 

[MisterJB]

feliciano2040 wrote...
In all seriousness, it is unwarranted, you do not have the moral right to take away someone against their will and force them to go through a violent interrogation (a reasonable assumption given what we know of Cerberus), specially on a witness who clearly is an unreliable source of information.

I never claimed that I had the moral right. I claimed that if interrogating Veetor can help us find the missing humans, then that is what we should do. It's the mental sanity of one person versus the lives of thousand others.

Also, wether or not he is unreliable is irrelevant. Veetor is the witness we have and it's with him we have to work. I'd have preferred had it been Kal'Reegar who was on Freedom's Progress. He would give us a detailed report on the Collectors.

Besides, there is another solution, which is offering Veetor to the quarians (as many here have suggested), even though I never make that decision in regards to that criteria. The truth is that Veetor is an innocent victim who most likely has no more information about the attack, there's only poor and misguided reasons to give him to Cerberus.

By giving Veetor to the quarians, Shepard risks them refusing to foward the omnitool data to Cerberus. Thus we loose the sample of the Swarms Veetor collected and thus Mordin can't syntetize a protection. That's a very good reason to give him to Cerberus,

Let's shake things up a bit, what if it wasn't the police ? What if it was the I.R.A. ? Or The People's Liberation Movement ? or any other para-military movement that wanted the information ? Because that's what Cerberus is, an independent group, outside all scope of the law, and with a very, VERY shady reputation.

With thousands of lives of the line? Yes.

And how do I know that ? I can't simply trust Miranda, even if I steal hugs and kisses from her  !

In any case, keeping someone awake against their will is torture, and Miranda offers no proof to the contrary, except that "she had to do what she had to do", even when a disfunctional, broken quarian is standing in front of her.

I do trust Miranda. She has already proven that she does care for other people and despises pointless cruelty. If she says there was no other option, I believe her.

You don't know that, even if you did, the burden of proof is on the acused, Cerberus (Miranda in this case) needs to prove they offered him food and he rejected it, since they don't, we can safely assume that they starved him.

We have already extablished that Cerberus wanted him lucid. With that in mind, it makes no sense for them to deny him food.

Then why are you interrogating him in the first place if his word carries no weight ?

1-He wasn't so bad before he was given to Cerberus.
2-He was unstable, yes, but like I said before, we have to work with what we have.

Seriously, if a para-military group took you and tortured you into giving information, would you like it if a court dismissed your acussations against the group on the basis that you are traumatized and demented ?

If I started mistaking members of the jury for husks...

Nope, it doesn't, you may rationalize it all you want, doesn't mean it's true, and you have no proof of the contrary.

Yes, it does. To this particular point, it does not matter if Veetor will be able to give more information.
If given to them, Cerberus will take the data he collected and then they will interrogate him in greater detail. It's only logic.
Wether he is able to give more information or not remains to be seen.

[naledgeborn]

OT: Looking at JB's/felliciano's back and forth how much **** do think Tali got for sending Cerberus Veetor's omnitool data? Let's be real here, if it weren't for Tali those seeker swarm samples weren't going to leave the flotilla.

[Nashiktal]

naledgeborn wrote...

flemm wrote...

So, in that sense, it may be a case of the devs misreading the players a bit. Or maybe not, if there are a lot of players out there who just want to play as the evil bad guys, but don't post about it on the forums.

Understatement of the BioWare decade. In a nutshell though you're right flemm... at least when it comes to the Mass Effect team. The closest they got to an "ends justifies the means" morality was the Closed Fist philosophy in Jade Empire and even then 75% of the Closed Fist path was being "evil for evil's sake".

And on that note; I may hate David Gaider and his team of writers, but I do respect them tremendously because when they can pull off "grey and gray morality" they do so beautifully.

I agree with this so much. Gaider does better creating a "paragon" and "renegade" path than the ME team ever did. Which makes me sad because the original intent behind the system gave me so much hope.

As it is right now, I don't even know why they bothered to make the bars separate. If you don't follow one path enough you miss out on content, or fail certain choices.

[feliciano2040]

MisterJB wrote...

I never claimed that I had the moral right. I claimed that if interrogating Veetor can help us find the missing humans, then that is what we should do. It's the mental sanity of one person versus the lives of thousand others.

You're rationalizing friend, submitting an innocent individual to torture is not going to prevent more humans from being captured or killed, there's only a vague, minuscle chance of getting any useful information out of him, specially since he is in shock, and his answers can't be considered rational, anyone with the capability to properly asess a person is capable of knowing a traumatized, delusional person is more likely to answer gibberish than whatever necessary information you may need.

MisterJB wrote... 

Also, wether or not he is unreliable is irrelevant. Veetor is the witness we have and it's with him we have to work. I'd have preferred had it been Kal'Reegar who was on Freedom's Progress. He would give us a detailed report on the Collectors.

How exactly can it not be relevant ? He's under stress, his answers are not rational, whatever memories he may have are clearly muddled and distorted by the experience, he's not a good source of information.

MisterJB wrote... 

By giving Veetor to the quarians, Shepard risks them refusing to foward the omnitool data to Cerberus. Thus we loose the sample of the Swarms Veetor collected and thus Mordin can't syntetize a protection. That's a very good reason to give him to Cerberus

We still have the omni-tool data, and you still have Tali, it's not unreasonable to believe she has sway over the decision to deliver the information, apart from the fact that you should still be under moral obligation of not submitting someone to torture, simply out of the fact that you perhaps, wouldn't like it.

MisterJB wrote... 

With thousands of lives of the line? Yes.

Riiiiiiiiiight.

Let's see if you come back with those same thoughts when you're waterboarded or when electrical currents are delivered to your genitalia, we'll see how you see things then  !

MisterJB wrote... 

I do trust Miranda. She has already proven that she does care for other people and despises pointless cruelty. If she says there was no other option, I believe her.

At that point in the game you have no reason to trust her, other than whatever opinion you may have of her and of her views, if you choose to trust her, it's your choice, this does not imply that any action you undertake is just or even rational.

MisterJB wrote... 

We have already extablished that Cerberus wanted him lucid. With that in mind, it makes no sense for them to deny him food.

They deprived him of any kind of rest so that he would answer their questions.

Also, it makes perfect sense for them to keep him starving, if they believe it will make him talk, they will do it.

MisterJB wrote... 

He wasn't so bad before he was given to Cerberus.

He was unstable, yes, but like I said before, we have to work with what we have.

Again, proper asessment, Veetor did not even realize someone had entered the room he was in, he was speaking pure gibberish, he referred to the collectors as "monsters", Veetor was FAR more than just unstable, and if you believe anything someone in that state can say is reliable, then you're in for a bad surprise.

So no, we don't have to work with an unreliable witness, and neither do we have to submit him to torture, specially when there's no reason, nor guarantee that the information we may get will be worth it.

MisterJB wrote... 

If I started mistaking members of the jury for husks...

"The word of a clearly traumatized and demented man has no weight"

You said it man, not me  !

Modifié par feliciano2040, 18 décembre 2011 - 01:09 .

[naledgeborn]

feliciano, you're an idealist to a fault. The only reason I wouldn't advocate torture as method to get information is because it's ineffective...after a while people will say anything you want to make the pain stop.

That being said, if torture were an effective interrogation method I wouldn't hesitate for a second if the "reward outweighed the risk"; this case being the lives of several colonists over the well being of one quarian. So if I were Shepard I sure as hell wouldn't lose sleep because Veetor was injected with "truth serum" or whatever... which happens to not be torture at all.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 18 décembre 2011 - 01:19 .

[Nashiktal]

naledgeborn wrote...

feliciano, you're an idealist to a fault. The only reason I wouldn't advocate torture as method to get information is because it's ineffective...after a while people will say anything you want to make the pain stop.

That being said, if torture were an effective interrogation method I wouldn't hesitate for a second if the "reward outweighed the risk"; this case being the lives of several colonists over the well being of one quarian. So if I were Shepard I sure as hell wouldn't lose sleep because Veetor was injected with "truth serum" or whatever... which happens to not be torture at all.

I do agree with him about not giving veetor to cerberus though. There is far more than harming veetor at stake here, there is also furthering cerberus relations (and by association shep's) down the tube, then there is Tali and her perception of cerberus/shep.

Of course if you use metagaming we can see that it didn't matter either way, but still.

[naledgeborn]

Don't get me wrong I let Veetor walk, but that's only because Tali (who I gave the Geth Data to) was there. If She weren't there or if I didn't give her the data, Veetor would be off to minuteman station. My main reasoning being that at that point the quarians couldn't be trusted with sharing the intelligence they had on the Collectors.

Like JB said, at that point there weren't any guarantees that the quarians were willing to play nice. The decision is really a gamble on whether you trust Tali's ability to get that information to you. Which is risky since half of her team mutinied on the spot and even more so if you didn't help her with her pilgrimage.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 18 décembre 2011 - 01:31 .

[MisterJB]

feliciano2040 wrote...

You're rationalizing friend, submitting an innocent individual to torture is not going to prevent more humans from being captured or killed, there's only a vague, minuscle chance of getting any useful information out of him, specially since he is in shock, and his answers can't be considered rational, anyone with the capability to properly asess a person is capable of knowing a traumatized, delusional person is more likely to answer gibberish than whatever necessary information you may need.

The chance is still there, though. And the drugs were most likely so he would start making some sense.

How exactly can it not be relevant ? He's under stress, his answers are not rational, whatever memories he may have are clearly muddled and distorted by the experience, he's not a good source of information.

And yet, there is no other source.

We still have the omni-tool data, and you still have Tali, it's not unreasonable to believe she has sway over the decision to deliver the information, apart from the fact that you should still be under moral obligation of not submitting someone to torture, simply out of the fact that you perhaps, wouldn't like it.

It's a risk. Tali can fail. When you are dealing with the lives of millions, it's irresponsible take unecessery risks like that.

Riiiiiiiiiight.

Let's see if you come back with those same thoughts when you're waterboarded or when electrical currents are delivered to your genitalia, we'll see how you see things then  !

You are still speaking of torture methods. Veetor was not tortured.

At that point in the game you have no reason to trust her, other than whatever opinion you may have of her and of her views, if you choose to trust her, it's your choice, this does not imply that any action you undertake is just or even rational.

I was actually talking about why I believe her later, on the Migrant Fleet, when she justifies Cerberus' action.

They deprived him of any kind of rest so that he would answer their questions.

Or perhaps by "lucid" they meant that they gave him some drugs that made him stop talking giberish like he was when Shepard finds him and also enabled him to understand what he was being questioned.

Also, it makes perfect sense for them to keep him starving, if they believe it will make him talk, they will do it.

That would make sense if Veetor was refusing to talk. That is not the problem here. Veetor can talk, he just doesn't make much sense. Starving him will not help them get any information out of him

Again, proper asessment, Veetor did not even realize someone had entered the room he was in, he was speaking pure gibberish, he referred to the collectors as "monsters", Veetor was FAR more than just unstable, and if you believe anything someone in that state can say is reliable, then you're in for a bad surprise.

And again, that was probrably why they needed the drugs to keep him lucid.

So no, we don't have to work with an unreliable witness, and neither do we have to submit him to torture, specially when there's no reason, nor guarantee that the information we may get will be worth it.

We also have no guarantee that the quarians will keep their end of the bargain and give Cerberus the info. At least, by keeping Veetor, we know for sure that we will retain his omni tool data.

[feliciano2040]

naledgeborn wrote...

feliciano, you're an idealist to a fault. The only reason I wouldn't advocate torture as method to get information is because it's ineffective...after a while people will say anything you want to make the pain stop.

Have you ever met someone who has actually been tortured ?

naledgeborn wrote... 

That being said, if torture were an effective interrogation method I wouldn't hesitate for a second if the "reward outweighed the risk"; this case being the lives of several colonists over the well being of one quarian. So if I were Shepard I sure as hell wouldn't lose sleep because Veetor was injected with "truth serum" or whatever... which happens to not be torture at all.

Suuuuuuuuuuure, I bet your vast experience in Delta Force is talking right now  !

[naledgeborn]

feliciano2040 wrote...

Suuuuuuuuuuure, I bet your vast experience in Delta Force is talking right now  !

Pararescue actually.

[feliciano2040]

MisterJB, I'm gonna drop it, none of us is going to yield, I can understand your point, I just think you're misinterpreting some facts and making too many assumptions, still, it's your opinion, and you are perfectly entitled to it, hope you feel the same applies to me as well  !

naledgeborn wrote...

Pararescue actually.

Nice ! You tortured people over there ?

Modifié par feliciano2040, 18 décembre 2011 - 01:46 .