82210 réponses à ce sujet

[ubermensch007]

I just have one or two more things to say about Commander Shepard calling Operative Miranda Lawson "Miri"

I don't think that he would do this, b/c he would have enough sense to know that it would be like opening an old wound with Miranda.Nekat was her friend.he was someone that she trusted implicitedly.And that is very uncommon for her.Nekat sort of betrayed her.He either died right in front of her eyes or she killed him herself.By the nature of memory and asscociation.If Shepard called her 'Miri' she couldn't really help but think of the person who orginally gave her that childhood nickname.And what became of him and their tragic relationship.

I think at this point in her life, if someone were to call her "Miri" even if it was Shepard.The name would make her cringe.

I ususally only call her Miri, not so much out of affection, but b/c when i'm writing her name, its a good shorthand, like Shep - instead of always writing - Shepard...Most characters in Mass Effect have two or one syllable names.Miranda's is three syllables.And three syllable names outside of classical greek text and mythologies, can be kind of annoying to speak and write.

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Not sure if this was a posted idea (Not going to dig through 900 pages for 1 post), but since Cerberus in ME3 shows signs of being controlled by the Reapers, I think it would be an awesome idea to have her take
control of it at the end, and remake it into a better image.

Ah, this idea just won't die.Will it?  For the life of me, I really do fail to see how anyone could remotely think that Miranda Lawson would be the one to either take down Cerberus or step in the Illusive Man's shoes.In my very long post back on the bottom of page 859, I thought I made a pretty good case for why this is so:

I. What Operative Lawson says about the Geth in the Prologue:

"They're sending him to fight geth. "Geth" We both know there not the real threat."

Okay.Hold up, wait a minute.Now if I were to meta game, I could say that we later find out that the geth that were hostile towards organics in 2183, only represent a fraction of the geth's true might.They were merely the 'tip of the iceberg' as they say.So Miranda's analysis of the geth threat, comes off looking really idiotic.

But even without metagaming.Miranda still comes off looking like she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about:

After the death of the rogue Spectre Saren Arterius.The only viable lead that Shepard and Co. had on the Reapers were there geth allies.As Tali was able to retrieve valuable intel from a geth.That let the Council know what Saren was playing at.Having her work with Shepard to hunt geth down and find out what else they know.Makes sense to me.

Yeah Miranda, the Reapers are the real threat and there still out there.But the only lead that we have on them is thier geth allies.So what the hell are you talking about?! And on another point, its clear that the Illusive Man didn't concur with Ms.Lawson about how much of threat the geth might be.What with him funding Project Overlord and
all.

II. Miranda statement that if she were in charge.She would have put a control chip in Commander Shepard, in order to "insist" that he does as Cerberus bids. Okay, this would have backfired for so many reasons.If Cerberus would have put an explosive device in Shepard's body and threatened to detonate it if he did not do as they
command.Shepard would have been more preoccupied with finding a way to break free from Cerberus control, than finding a way to defeat the Collectors.

Here is yet again, another example of Jack Harper having far better judgement than she...

III. Miranda is betrayed not once, but twice.In the same damn year, and she doesn't see it coming:

Nobody's perfect, and indeed a good spy or sabotuer is hard to spot, if they are doing what is asked of them, with competence and not asking alot of questions about matters that are none of thier buisness.Or found lurking beside a place (eavesdropping)  where higher ups believe themselves to be having a private conversation.How could anyone suspect that thier organization has been infiltrated?

But you would think that an organization as powerful and covert as Cerberus, which has infiltrated many other agencies.Would suspect as much in thiers...Miranda kills the traitor, before finding out who he works for.And why he did what he did.For all we know, Wilson could have been convinced to become a Double Agent for Cerberus.Like Feron was convinced to do thus in Mass Effect: Redemption - If they made him the right offer.

And for her to justify killing Wilson, b/c taking him with them, would be to risky.Is absurd. Its much more dangerous, to have no idea who your enemies are. You can't fight an opponent, that you can't see.Her
action, kind of prevents the whole, "Target aquired, threat neutralized course of action." But TIM, does a sweep of Cerberus cells, to see if they have any other moles.They later find information that reveals that the Shadow Broker was behind Wilson.(Post Horizon, Liara - Lair of the Shadow Broker intel) But no credit can be given to Ms.Lawson.I find what the Illusive Man says (along with his body language, when he says it) to Shepard about what Miranda did, to be very interesting:

Shepard: Miranda killed Wilson in cold blood.

TIM: Miranda did exactly what I expected of her.

Hmm... Is it just me, or does that sound like a very PR response.Notice how what he says, neither condones or condems her action.And by the time Shepard gets to Operative Lawson's Loyalty Mission.He could say the same thing.What with how Miranda tries to kill an unarmed man, Nekat.Except this time.She does ask questions
before she kills the "traitor".

So when its her personal crap.She doesn't shoot first and ask questions later.But when a situation arises that has to do with professional matters.Like the security of Cerberus Command.She shoots first and doesn't even ask questions later... WTF!?

IV. Miranda's apology to Shepard:

Its nothing wrong with making amends.But I sort of had to hear that again, when Miri says what she is apologizing to Shep for.

Miranda: I have to apologize to you.I DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT YOU WERE UP TO THE TASK.

If there was ever a moment in the Mass Effect series to allow the player either a paragon or renegade interrupt.This was it. It is important for adults as well as children, to know what is expected of them.So they won't be idle or wonder about aimlessly.

A leader is expected to do three things well.

1. Have a vision.

2. Get people to help you make a dream into reality.

3. Know what those who are working for you or with you are capable of.In order to properly delegate responsibilty and get the best work out of them possible. What Operative Miranda Lawson confesses to Commander Shepard, makes me facepalm and have a sense of disbelief.At her complete and utter poor analysis...

Miranda tells us that she has been learning all she could about Shepard for the past two years.While working on bringing him back to life.Well then she should know fully well, that as an N7 Alliance Space Marine:

(My) Shepard distinguished himself by defending the human colony of Elyisium from a massive Pirate Invasion.He and his team prevented a nucelar holocaust from happening on Eden Prime.

As the first human Spectre, Shepard goes to Pinnacle Station and breaks all records.Shep and Co.go on to save Terra Nova from a cosmic collision.Fought back an Geth invasion of the Feros Colony and freed
the colonist from mental inslavement to the Thorian.Took out all geth outpost in the Attican Traverse, preventing them from gaining strength in that sector of space.Defeated the legendary Asari Commandos in a
battle on Noveria.Destroyed Saren's Krogan Cloning Facility on Virmire.When Shep and the STG were massivly outnumbered and outgunned.Touchdowned on Illos, followed Saren through the Conduit and
thrawted the Reaper Invasion.

And I'm leaving some stuff out... Now how Miranda could look over the career highlights of someone as skilled, accomplished and a seasoned 10+ YEAR vet, with the Alliance as Commander Shepard is.And think that he is unqualified to handle their current assignment.Is quite a conumdrum.

My only question for Ms.Lawson is: "If you didn't think that Shepard was up to the task.Who the hell is?!"
This is just another example of the Illusive Man being right and Miranda Lawson being dead wrong.

But these are not my only reasons for believing that Miranda Lawson could never do what TIM does, so well (more than not). Taking over Cerberus wouldn't go down like how Dr.Liara T'Soni took over the Shadow Broker's Base of Operations.Cerberus Command has investors and backers that Jack Harper is anserwable too.In a sense if anyone were ever to replace him.It would most likely be a matter that is decided by a vote from a Commitee.She isn't just going to shoot TIM in the head and sit in his chair, and have everyone 'Fall in line' it doesn't work that way.

And from what I've seen.Miranda didn't strike me as being very popular or liked all that much by her colleagues.From Wilson's recordings )On the Lazarus Station) and her own behavior.She strikes me as the kind of person who may have more rivals and enemies in Cerberus, than friends and allies.So few, if any - would back her as TIM's replacement.You even see this attitude of hers, when your planning the Suicicde Mission, when their are objections to her being put in charge of an assault team: She says something like: Shepard, this isn't a popularity contest.You need someone in command who can - yada, yada, yada...

Now you might think that people don't want to go into combat with her as their leader b/c she is Cerberus.But this can't just be the case.Because no one objects, when Jacob Taylor is put in charge of the 'Fire Team' Now i just want to say that I actually like what BioWare did with Ms.Lawson.How they didn't even try to make her a fan favorite, or moral exemplar.She is who she is, and she doesn't apologize for it.But being the way she is, comes with some consequences, at times.And that's something that she has to learn to accept.

Modifié par ubermensch007, 20 décembre 2011 - 12:36 .

[jtav]

A very brief update before the holidays come and Skyrim eats my brain.

[Dr. Doctor]

On the whole nickname subject it all depends upon how Miranda feels about someone who isn't Niket using her old nickname. Of course even if Shepard had a nickname for Miranda it would only be used when it was just the two of them alone together.

@Jtav

As I said before I like the fact that you gave Miranda a mentor. I also like how you set up Teltin's cover story as being an academy for biotic children, it makes Jack's LM all that more shocking. The question I have is if Miranda's planning on using the information she gets from working with Matt to help cure her own condition.

[jtav]

Oh, yes. Suppose I didn't make that clear enough.

[JosephDucreux]

I didn't miss much about Miranda, did I?

[flemm]

JosephDucreux wrote...

I didn't miss much about Miranda, did I?

You mean official news or anything? If so, nope

ubermensch007 wrote...

But these are not my only reasons for believing that Miranda Lawson could never do what TIM does, so well (more than not).

Well, Miranda certainly wouldn't do what TIM does. That would be the whole point, really. It would be a different sort of organisation with Miranda in charge. Fewer atrocities committed, less fueled by paranoia, among other things.

Modifié par flemm, 20 décembre 2011 - 03:50 .

[feliciano2040]

flemm wrote...

Well, Miranda certainly wouldn't do what TIM does. That would be the whole point, really. It would be a different sort of organisation with Miranda in charge. Fewer atrocities committed, less fueled by paranoia, among other things.

It would be fantastic to have a DLC in which we could mold and influence Miranda herself in how she will envision the new organization that will replace Cerberus !

Though I think I'll get some backlash for even daring to think Miranda could be influenciable  !

[Skullheart]

cmon this is bioware writers... a naive and innocent archeologist turned to be the most important information broker...

I believe that Miranda can make something beyond and better than Cerberus.

[flemm]

feliciano2040 wrote...
Though I think I'll get some backlash for even daring to think Miranda could be influenciable  !

LoL

Well, I'm actually fond of the idea of this being a moment in the story that could be pushed in a few different directions via player choice. Partly this is due to various fans of the character having ideal endings that vary quite a bit.

Skullheart wrote...
I believe that Miranda can make something beyond and better than Cerberus.

Agreed. With Miranda I think it could easily be handled in a way that felt like naturally character growth. It would involve an element of growth, of course, but that's a good thing.

Modifié par flemm, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:16 .

[AgitatedLemon]

I. What Operative Lawson says about the Geth in the Prologue:

"They're sending him to fight geth. "Geth" We both know there not the real threat."

Okay.Hold up, wait a minute.Now if I were to meta game, I could say that we later find out that the geth that were hostile towards organics in 2183, only represent a fraction of the geth's true might.They were merely the 'tip of the iceberg' as they say.So Miranda's analysis of the geth threat, comes off looking really idiotic.

But even without metagaming.Miranda still comes off looking like she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about:

After the death of the rogue Spectre Saren Arterius.The only viable lead that Shepard and Co. had on the Reapers were there geth allies.As Tali was able to retrieve valuable intel from a geth.That let the Council know what Saren was playing at.Having her work with Shepard to hunt geth down and find out what else they know.Makes sense to me.

Yeah Miranda, the Reapers are the real threat and there still out there.But the only lead that we have on them is thier geth allies.So what the hell are you talking about?! And on another point, its clear that the Illusive Man didn't concur with Ms.Lawson about how much of threat the geth might be.What with him funding Project Overlord and
all.

II. Miranda statement that if she were in charge.She would have put a control chip in Commander Shepard, in order to "insist" that he does as Cerberus bids. Okay, this would have backfired for so many reasons.If Cerberus would have put an explosive device in Shepard's body and threatened to detonate it if he did not do as they
command.Shepard would have been more preoccupied with finding a way to break free from Cerberus control, than finding a way to defeat the Collectors.

Here is yet again, another example of Jack Harper having far better judgement than she...

III. Miranda is betrayed not once, but twice.In the same damn year, and she doesn't see it coming:

Nobody's perfect, and indeed a good spy or sabotuer is hard to spot, if they are doing what is asked of them, with competence and not asking alot of questions about matters that are none of thier buisness.Or found lurking beside a place (eavesdropping) where higher ups believe themselves to be having a private conversation.How could anyone suspect that thier organization has been infiltrated?

But you would think that an organization as powerful and covert as Cerberus, which has infiltrated many other agencies.Would suspect as much in thiers...Miranda kills the traitor, before finding out who he works for.And why he did what he did.For all we know, Wilson could have been convinced to become a Double Agent for Cerberus.Like Feron was convinced to do thus in Mass Effect: Redemption - If they made him the right offer.

And for her to justify killing Wilson, b/c taking him with them, would be to risky.Is absurd. Its much more dangerous, to have no idea who your enemies are. You can't fight an opponent, that you can't see.Her
action, kind of prevents the whole, "Target aquired, threat neutralized course of action." But TIM, does a sweep of Cerberus cells, to see if they have any other moles.They later find information that reveals that the Shadow Broker was behind Wilson.(Post Horizon, Liara - Lair of the Shadow Broker intel) But no credit can be given to Ms.Lawson.I find what the Illusive Man says (along with his body language, when he says it) to Shepard about what Miranda did, to be very interesting:

Shepard: Miranda killed Wilson in cold blood.

TIM: Miranda did exactly what I expected of her.

Hmm... Is it just me, or does that sound like a very PR response.Notice how what he says, neither condones or condems her action.And by the time Shepard gets to Operative Lawson's Loyalty Mission.He could say the same thing.What with how Miranda tries to kill an unarmed man, Nekat.Except this time.She does ask questions
before she kills the "traitor".

So when its her personal crap.She doesn't shoot first and ask questions later.But when a situation arises that has to do with professional matters.Like the security of Cerberus Command.She shoots first and doesn't even ask questions later... WTF!?

IV. Miranda's apology to Shepard:

Its nothing wrong with making amends.But I sort of had to hear that again, when Miri says what she is apologizing to Shep for.

Miranda: I have to apologize to you.I DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT YOU WERE UP TO THE TASK.

If there was ever a moment in the Mass Effect series to allow the player either a paragon or renegade interrupt.This was it. It is important for adults as well as children, to know what is expected of them.So they won't be idle or wonder about aimlessly.

A leader is expected to do three things well.

1. Have a vision.

2. Get people to help you make a dream into reality.

3. Know what those who are working for you or with you are capable of.In order to properly delegate responsibilty and get the best work out of them possible. What Operative Miranda Lawson confesses to Commander Shepard, makes me facepalm and have a sense of disbelief.At her complete and utter poor analysis...

Miranda tells us that she has been learning all she could about Shepard for the past two years.While working on bringing him back to life.Well then she should know fully well, that as an N7 Alliance Space Marine:

(My) Shepard distinguished himself by defending the human colony of Elyisium from a massive Pirate Invasion.He and his team prevented a nucelar holocaust from happening on Eden Prime.

As the first human Spectre, Shepard goes to Pinnacle Station and breaks all records.Shep and Co.go on to save Terra Nova from a cosmic collision.Fought back an Geth invasion of the Feros Colony and freed
the colonist from mental inslavement to the Thorian.Took out all geth outpost in the Attican Traverse, preventing them from gaining strength in that sector of space.Defeated the legendary Asari Commandos in a
battle on Noveria.Destroyed Saren's Krogan Cloning Facility on Virmire.When Shep and the STG were massivly outnumbered and outgunned.Touchdowned on Illos, followed Saren through the Conduit and
thrawted the Reaper Invasion.

And I'm leaving some stuff out... Now how Miranda could look over the career highlights of someone as skilled, accomplished and a seasoned 10+ YEAR vet, with the Alliance as Commander Shepard is.And think that he is unqualified to handle their current assignment.Is quite a conumdrum.

My only question for Ms.Lawson is: "If you didn't think that Shepard was up to the task.Who the hell is?!"
This is just another example of the Illusive Man being right and Miranda Lawson being dead wrong.

1. On the point of the Geth, no one knew of the schism between the Geth until Legion is obtained. Given with the indeterminate amount of time from Start--Finish, how could ANYONE have known? What are you even arguing here? I don't see how Miranda is at any sort of fault.

2. That's just Miranda saying what she would have done if she were in charge. Even then, this was radical loyalist Miranda, not the "good" Miranda we see after the game. On that, why would TIM want to place explosives inside Shepard? Wouldn't that be INCREDIBLY counter productive? The reason he was brought back was to oppose the Collectors. Having a pack of C4 in his stomach would make it quite hard to fight them while Shepard lays on the ground, a mess of gore and blood.

3. Again, this was loyalist Miranda. And besides, what would you have done? Wilson let loose a small army of LOKI and YMIR mechs against her. I would be a little more than upset as well. On that, her reasons for wanting to kill Niket were only for safeguarding her sister, if a bit extreme. As extreme as they are, you can interrupt her killing Niket. She still liked Niket, even if he did sort of betray her. She only wanted to kill him because her father was a tyrannical madman, and Niket had information on Oriana that her father didn't, thus making him a loose end. She just didn't want Oriana being placed in potential danger. It's understandable, albeit a harsh judgement. Good thing for me I stopped her killing Niket, even if Enyala kills him afterward. Again, I don't know what you're arguing.

4. You can chalk this up to Miranda having never worked with Shepard before. Both games have their share of characters that initially doubt Shepard, Miranda is no different. Hell, I'm not even sure if I would call it "her doubting Shepard". She has the utmost confidence and respect in his military prowess, it is just his motivations and ideals that concern her. She's simply worried about the decisions he's made/will make. This is actually one of the first things she tells you in any of her conversations, and it's perfectly normal. Also, She KNOWS what Shepard has done, she just wasn't there, so she doesn't know HOW he did them.

To conclude... You're just making Miranda out to be this dumb bimbo who has almost no intelligence and just serves as a fan service. She isn't just a "dumb ho". She knows what she's doing. There's a reason she was made Shepard's XO.

And I don't normally insult other peoples' grammar and punctuation, but good God man, every one of your paragraphs are run on sentences.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 20 décembre 2011 - 05:04 .

[Draco Knight 77]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

I. What Operative Lawson says about the Geth in the Prologue:

"They're sending him to fight geth. "Geth" We both know there not the real threat."

Okay.Hold up, wait a minute.Now if I were to meta game, I could say that we later find out that the geth that were hostile towards organics in 2183, only represent a fraction of the geth's true might.They were merely the 'tip of the iceberg' as they say.So Miranda's analysis of the geth threat, comes off looking really idiotic.

But even without metagaming.Miranda still comes off looking like she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about:

After the death of the rogue Spectre Saren Arterius.The only viable lead that Shepard and Co. had on the Reapers were there geth allies.As Tali was able to retrieve valuable intel from a geth.That let the Council know what Saren was playing at.Having her work with Shepard to hunt geth down and find out what else they know.Makes sense to me.

Yeah Miranda, the Reapers are the real threat and there still out there.But the only lead that we have on them is thier geth allies.So what the hell are you talking about?! And on another point, its clear that the Illusive Man didn't concur with Ms.Lawson about how much of threat the geth might be.What with him funding Project Overlord and
all.

II. Miranda statement that if she were in charge.She would have put a control chip in Commander Shepard, in order to "insist" that he does as Cerberus bids. Okay, this would have backfired for so many reasons.If Cerberus would have put an explosive device in Shepard's body and threatened to detonate it if he did not do as they
command.Shepard would have been more preoccupied with finding a way to break free from Cerberus control, than finding a way to defeat the Collectors.

Here is yet again, another example of Jack Harper having far better judgement than she...

III. Miranda is betrayed not once, but twice.In the same damn year, and she doesn't see it coming:

Nobody's perfect, and indeed a good spy or sabotuer is hard to spot, if they are doing what is asked of them, with competence and not asking alot of questions about matters that are none of thier buisness.Or found lurking beside a place (eavesdropping) where higher ups believe themselves to be having a private conversation.How could anyone suspect that thier organization has been infiltrated?

But you would think that an organization as powerful and covert as Cerberus, which has infiltrated many other agencies.Would suspect as much in thiers...Miranda kills the traitor, before finding out who he works for.And why he did what he did.For all we know, Wilson could have been convinced to become a Double Agent for Cerberus.Like Feron was convinced to do thus in Mass Effect: Redemption - If they made him the right offer.

And for her to justify killing Wilson, b/c taking him with them, would be to risky.Is absurd. Its much more dangerous, to have no idea who your enemies are. You can't fight an opponent, that you can't see.Her
action, kind of prevents the whole, "Target aquired, threat neutralized course of action." But TIM, does a sweep of Cerberus cells, to see if they have any other moles.They later find information that reveals that the Shadow Broker was behind Wilson.(Post Horizon, Liara - Lair of the Shadow Broker intel) But no credit can be given to Ms.Lawson.I find what the Illusive Man says (along with his body language, when he says it) to Shepard about what Miranda did, to be very interesting:

Shepard: Miranda killed Wilson in cold blood.

TIM: Miranda did exactly what I expected of her.

Hmm... Is it just me, or does that sound like a very PR response.Notice how what he says, neither condones or condems her action.And by the time Shepard gets to Operative Lawson's Loyalty Mission.He could say the same thing.What with how Miranda tries to kill an unarmed man, Nekat.Except this time.She does ask questions
before she kills the "traitor".

So when its her personal crap.She doesn't shoot first and ask questions later.But when a situation arises that has to do with professional matters.Like the security of Cerberus Command.She shoots first and doesn't even ask questions later... WTF!?

IV. Miranda's apology to Shepard:

Its nothing wrong with making amends.But I sort of had to hear that again, when Miri says what she is apologizing to Shep for.

Miranda: I have to apologize to you.I DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT YOU WERE UP TO THE TASK.

If there was ever a moment in the Mass Effect series to allow the player either a paragon or renegade interrupt.This was it. It is important for adults as well as children, to know what is expected of them.So they won't be idle or wonder about aimlessly.

A leader is expected to do three things well.

1. Have a vision.

2. Get people to help you make a dream into reality.

3. Know what those who are working for you or with you are capable of.In order to properly delegate responsibilty and get the best work out of them possible. What Operative Miranda Lawson confesses to Commander Shepard, makes me facepalm and have a sense of disbelief.At her complete and utter poor analysis...

Miranda tells us that she has been learning all she could about Shepard for the past two years.While working on bringing him back to life.Well then she should know fully well, that as an N7 Alliance Space Marine:

(My) Shepard distinguished himself by defending the human colony of Elyisium from a massive Pirate Invasion.He and his team prevented a nucelar holocaust from happening on Eden Prime.

As the first human Spectre, Shepard goes to Pinnacle Station and breaks all records.Shep and Co.go on to save Terra Nova from a cosmic collision.Fought back an Geth invasion of the Feros Colony and freed
the colonist from mental inslavement to the Thorian.Took out all geth outpost in the Attican Traverse, preventing them from gaining strength in that sector of space.Defeated the legendary Asari Commandos in a
battle on Noveria.Destroyed Saren's Krogan Cloning Facility on Virmire.When Shep and the STG were massivly outnumbered and outgunned.Touchdowned on Illos, followed Saren through the Conduit and
thrawted the Reaper Invasion.

And I'm leaving some stuff out... Now how Miranda could look over the career highlights of someone as skilled, accomplished and a seasoned 10+ YEAR vet, with the Alliance as Commander Shepard is.And think that he is unqualified to handle their current assignment.Is quite a conumdrum.

My only question for Ms.Lawson is: "If you didn't think that Shepard was up to the task.Who the hell is?!"
This is just another example of the Illusive Man being right and Miranda Lawson being dead wrong.

1. On the point of the Geth, no one knew of the schism between the Geth until Legion is obtained. Given with the indeterminate amount of time from Start--Finish, how could ANYONE have known? What are you even arguing here? I don't see how Miranda is at any sort of fault.

2. That's just Miranda saying what she would have done if she were in charge. Even then, this was radical loyalist Miranda, not the "good" Miranda we see after the game. On that, why would TIM want to place explosives inside Shepard? Wouldn't that be INCREDIBLY counter productive? The reason he was brought back was to oppose the Collectors. Having a pack of C4 in his stomach would make it quite hard to fight them while Shepard lays on the ground, a mess of gore and blood.

3. Again, this was loyalist Miranda. And besides, what would you have done? Wilson let loose a small army of LOKI and YMIR mechs against her. I would be a little more than upset as well. On that, her reasons for wanting to kill Niket were only for safeguarding her sister, if a bit extreme. As extreme as they are, you can interrupt her killing Niket. She still liked Niket, even if he did sort of betray her. She only wanted to kill him because her father was a tyrannical madman, and Niket had information on Oriana that her father didn't, thus making him a loose end. She just didn't want Oriana being placed in potential danger. It's understandable, albeit a harsh judgement. Good thing for me I stopped her killing Niket, even if Enyala kills him afterward. Again, I don't know what you're arguing.

4. You can chalk this up to Miranda having never worked with Shepard before. Both games have their share of characters that initially doubt Shepard, Miranda is no different. Hell, I'm not even sure if I would call it "her doubting Shepard". She has the utmost confidence and respect in his military prowess, it is just his motivations and ideals that concern her. She's simply worried about the decisions he's made/will make. This is actually one of the first things she tells you in any of her conversations, and it's perfectly normal. Also, She KNOWS what Shepard has done, she just wasn't there, so she doesn't know HOW he did them.

To conclude... You're just making Miranda out to be this dumb bimbo who has almost no intelligence and just serves as a fan service. She isn't just a "dumb ho". She knows what she's doing. There's a reason she was made Shepard's XO.

And I don't normally insult other peoples' grammar and punctuation, but good God man, every one of your paragraphs are run on sentences.

Great job:D you owned them:ph34r: and Don't forget while shepard was out looking for the geth that Miranda and jacob saved us from a very deadly bio weapon:bandit: and then was able to escape from her farther two times when she was only 16-19 years old and saved her sister not only that but in some games she lead the firer teams agained imposible odds :Pand not only that in the future will attack a cerbeus mega base:unsure: and not all of her work will be know to shepard due to the fact that she is a cerberus opertive who has been so secessfull that she has meet T.I.M in person and is like second in comand. 
And is better than the average human 

very sorry for the spelling and once again great job lemon sorry if that is not your name

[Rdubs]

******Slight spoiler alert in the following********
Have been trying to figure something out recently. What kind of a difference do you think - as it pertains to Miranda, and relating to what we know about her role from the leaked Beta - the decision to blow up or save the Collector base will make to:
1) The time between Arrival but before ME3 starts, and
2) Miranda's role in ME3?

First, I've read Ieldra2's writeup of Miranda's content from the leaked beta but I can't figure out from it if she's still with Cerberus or not when ME3 starts. I'm also not sure if it depends on whether or not you blew the Collector base - at the end of ME2 she quits Cerberus if you blow it, but Bioware might "override" that decision or have her re-join for the start of ME3.

I'm mainly asking because I'm trying to write a fan fic about some adventures (with Shep and Miranda being a couple) that happen after Arrival but before ME3 and would like it to "gel" with what we know about how ME3 from the leak (understanding they might re-write some things, but my money is most of it will stay as-is).

I'm trying to avoid talking about major spoilers asking this, let me know if you think this should be moved to the dedicated spoiler group discussion and I'll edit this post clean.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Oh, yes. Suppose I didn't make that clear enough.

???

That was *very* clear to me.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

But these are not my only reasons for believing that Miranda Lawson could never do what TIM does, so well (more than not).

Well, Miranda certainly wouldn't do what TIM does. That would be the whole point, really. It would be a different sort of organisation with Miranda in charge. Fewer atrocities committed, less fueled by paranoia, among other things.

Also I doubt that Cerberus' backers know - or even want to know - what exactly their money is used for. They give money, they want to see a few results here and there, but how these results are obtained isn't their concern. Miranda could take over TIM's place with no one the wiser.

[Ieldra]

Rdubs wrote...
First, I've read Ieldra2's writeup of Miranda's content from the leaked beta but I can't figure out from it if she's still with Cerberus or not when ME3 starts. I'm also not sure if it depends on whether or not you blew the Collector base - at the end of ME2 she quits Cerberus if you blow it, but Bioware might "override" that decision or have her re-join for the start of ME3.

I'm mainly asking because I'm trying to write a fan fic about some adventures (with Shep and Miranda being a couple) that happen after Arrival but before ME3 and would like it to "gel" with what we know about how ME3 from the leak (understanding they might re-write some things, but my money is most of it will stay as-is).

I'm trying to avoid talking about major spoilers asking this, let me know if you think this should be moved to the dedicated spoiler group discussion and I'll edit this post clean.

No major spoilers are necessary, because we do not know, and there is no clear indication either way in the leaked script. I don't think it's a spoiler to say that at some point, she isn't with Cerberus anymore, but how she gets there in a game where you saved the Collector base is unknown.

[Rdubs]

Thanks Ieldra. I just wanted to avoid clashing with what we know based on the leak, but if it isn't clear then I can take more liberty with it.

Here's a question, slightly different subject. I could see an argument made that it would be easier or more likely for Miranda to want to stay with Shepard if he blew up the collector base than if he didn't. Rationale being, if he did then when Miranda quits Cerberus she has nothing to help ground her except Shepard, and her relying on his strength of leadership at a point where the entire crew essentially are now castaways could really cause a love between the two to blossom. But, if you kept the Collector base, I think it would be more likely that Miranda would see it as "mission over" and, as a very career-driven and professional woman, she would leave the Normandy and go back to Cerberus for the next phase. She would then switch back into "ice queen" career-woman mode, which wouldn't leave a lot of room for Shepard and I think she'd start seeing what they had as just a fling.
Any thoughts? This has been bugging me. Fairy-tale romances aside, I just think it would be a less likely that Shepard and Miranda develop a deep, loving relationship if she goes back to Cerberus and starts having her life revolve around another project than if she doesn't.

Modifié par Rdubs, 20 décembre 2011 - 09:13 .

[Ieldra]

Rdubs wrote...
Here's a question, slightly different subject. I could see an argument made that it would be easier or more likely for Miranda to want to stay with Shepard if he blew up the collector base than if he didn't. Rationale being, if he did then when Miranda quits Cerberus she has nothing to help ground her except Shepard, and her relying on his strength of leadership at a point where the entire crew essentially are now castaways could really cause a love between the two to blossom. But, if you kept the Collector base, I think it would be more likely that Miranda would see it as "mission over" and, as a very career-driven and professional woman, she would leave the Normandy and go back to Cerberus for the next phase. She would then switch back into "ice queen" career-woman mode, which wouldn't leave a lot of room for Shepard and I think she'd start seeing what they had as just a fling.
Any thoughts? This has been bugging me. Fairy-tale romances aside, I just think it would be a less likely that Shepard and Miranda develop a deep, loving relationship if she goes back to Cerberus and starts having her life revolve around another project than if she doesn't.

I think you're forgetting one thing: Miranda's two sides - the "cold" and the "warm" side, for lack of a better expression - co-exist. Which side she expresses depends on the people she's with. She's professional with colleages and more emotionally open with her sister. If you do her loyalty mission, you get into her "inner circle", and unless you betray her trust, you're likely to remain there. 

MIranda will be perfectly able to commit to Cerberus professionally and to a romance with Shepard emotionally, especially since if you keep the Collector base, you're technically still allied with Cerberus, albeit uneasily. This will mean, of course, that Miranda and Shepard will be separate at the start of ME3 as Shepard goes back to the Alliance while Miranda *may* stay with Cerberus for a time or do something else on her own if you destroyed the base and she resigned.

The problematic part, as I see it, will not be the romance. It's that Miranda must have a good reason to leave Cerberus in ME3 if you kept the Collector base. I'm very curious how that will turn out. And actually, I'm much more interested in how the romance path plays out if you kept the base, since if you destroyed it, it's something of a no-brainer. Besides, I kept the base in almost all of my games and refuse to replay it because I think in the situation we find outselves at the end of ME2, it's the best decision. But let's not get into that again - obviously people disagree almost violently about that.  

[Rdubs]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The problematic part, as I see it, will not be the romance. It's that Miranda must have a good reason to leave Cerberus in ME3 if you kept the Collector base. I'm very curious how that will turn out. And actually, I'm much more interested in how the romance path plays out if you kept the base, since if you destroyed it, it's something of a no-brainer. Besides, I kept the base in almost all of my games and refuse to replay it because I think in the situation we find outselves at the end of ME2, it's the best decision. But let's not get into that again - obviously people disagree almost violently about that.  

First, thanks Ieldra for the insight on her two sides.  I do think though that she'd be very BUSY if she went back to a high-pressure job at Cerberus and that would not be as good for their relationship compared to if it was the two of them vs. the world.  But maybe I'm needlessly thinking about it on a relative basis whereas you're saying on an absolute basis they would fine, which is good to know.

Second, on the Collector base, since I'm new to this thread I'll throw myself in the fire.  I read all the dialogue input the squadmates give about the decision and none of them have a good reason to blow it up - all the reasons are variations of "if we use our enemy's stuff then we become like them" which seems to be a more manageable concern than extinction due to technological superiority.  The couple of times I DID blow up the base, it was for more practical reasons:
1) Dialogue with Mordin makes it clear (a couple of times if I remember) that when a species gets technology before they're ready for it, it always ends badly like the Krogan expansion.  I took that to imply keeping the base could be bad long-term for some as-yet unidentifiable reason.
2) Remember in the first ME, I think it was Sovereign says "you develop along the paths we choose with the technology we choose" or something like that.  Which means if we spent time trying to develop the Collector tech against the Reapers, even though it would be more advanced they would be familiar with the technology and how to counter it.  Therefore, hypothetically, if we HADN'T spent that time reverse engineering Collector tech we would have spent that time trying to develop some other means, possibly NOT along the "paths they choose" and they'd be caught unawares.  I think this whole "dark energy" thing that Tali was working on in ME2 is going to be used to help beat them, it just sounds too mysterious to not be involved.

That being said, both the Thanix cannon and EDI spawned from researched tech from Sovereign, and those were major upgrades.  So that's the only practical application in the game and the result of it is a much more capable ship.

Luckily, I think just about everyone out there has at least one playthrough of each so we can see how the writers ended up using that decision.  Who knows, it could be a totally inconsequential decision like many others (meaning just a few lines of dialogue are different depending on if you did or didn't keep the base).

Modifié par Rdubs, 20 décembre 2011 - 04:42 .

[MisterJB]

Rdubs: I have two main points of disagreement with you.
First: While it is undoubtedly true that by resigning Cerberus, Miranda left a major part of her life behind, I disagree with the assessment that staying with Shepard would be the logical next step on 100% of the cases.
For example, in the case that Shepard has to spend six(?) months on Earth, I can't see Miranda choosing to place herself at the Alliance's mercy when there are other things to do in the Galaxy. Either it be protecting her sister, preparing for the Reaper's arrival or even fighting against Cerberus.
So, basically, even in games where Miranda resigned, I believe she is strong enough to not require his direct leadership if the situation requires them to work separate.

My second point is very similar to what Ieldra has already said; I'm just going to add a thing or two.
Miranda should be capable of juggling her work and relationship with Oriana and Shepard. However, in the case of ME3, Miranda and Shepard have not so much a long distance relationship as a...what do you call a relationship where the couple hasn't spoken in six months?
Judging from the “Promise” scene, I don’t think Miranda would simply classify what they had as a fling and move on but it’s undeniable that it would be much easier for their feelings to bloom if they had both remained on the Normandy and just let Cerberus and the Alliance do as they pleased.
After these six months of no contact, their relationship has, obviously, cooled off and, if Miranda was already hesitant to start anything serious due to the knowledge that they might die on the assault on the Collectors, thing will be much worse now that Cerberus is out of its leash and the Reapers are here. In the end, it will also be dependent of Shepard’s own reaction. “Does he still want me or had too much time passed? After all, there is no better place to find attractive and interesting female humans than Earth.”

[flemm]

Rdubs wrote...
Fairy-tale romances aside, I just think it would be a less likely that Shepard and Miranda develop a deep, loving relationship if she goes back to Cerberus and starts having her life revolve around another project than if she doesn't.

Possibly, but theoretically at least, Shepard basically continues to be allied with Cerberus in the event that you decide to keep the base. An uneasy alliance, but anyway not antagonistic. Given Miranda's reaction to keeping the base, it seems she has some misgivings/doubts in that scenario, which put her pretty close to the "uneasy alliance" perspective herself.

So, depending on how the writers play it exactly, I could see Miranda and Shepard being in roughly the same position re: Cerberus if you keep the base. By which I mean: Cerberus and TIM have turned against them, rather than the opposite.

Modifié par flemm, 20 décembre 2011 - 06:39 .

[naledgeborn]

Miranda Concept. Rarely see these.

[Dr. Doctor]

With the whole keep the base scenario I think that Miranda's faith in TIM is shaken. Based off of what we see on Pragia and in Overlord TIM's not exactly as benificent as Miranda makes him out to be early on (based off of the "Humanity couldn't have a better advocate." line).

On the subject of the romance, I sort of see it as something akin to the relationship between Bucky and the Black Widow. They both lead dangerous lives so its better to enjoy the time that they do have rather that worrying about the future.

[jtav]

Well, I don't think you can read her as not having deep feelings after the promise scene. It's Shepard I doubt here. Beyond that, I'm not interested in a relationship where the basis is Miranda needing Shepard. What attracted me was the fact that I didn't need to be her savior or protector. Her having a professional life beyond Shepard is attractive and I hope she keeps her cause, even if she must part ways with Cerberus.

[AgitatedLemon]

My second point is very similar to what Ieldra has already said; I'm just going to add a thing or two.
Miranda should be capable of juggling her work and relationship with Oriana and Shepard. However, in the case of ME3, Miranda and Shepard have not so much a long distance relationship as a...what do you call a relationship where the couple hasn't spoken in six months?

Something similar could be said about Horizon and the Virmire Survivor, especially if they're a former love interest. Only difference being is that 6 months turns into 2 years.

Of course, I think Miranda is lightyears ahead of Ashley in terms of competence and intelligence and wouldn't likely act like Ashley did.

If you're implying that the relationship is fracturing, then I disagree.

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

Well, I don't think you can read her as not having deep feelings after the promise scene. It's Shepard I doubt here. Beyond that, I'm not interested in a relationship where the basis is Miranda needing Shepard. What attracted me was the fact that I didn't need to be her savior or protector. Her having a professional life beyond Shepard is attractive and I hope she keeps her cause, even if she must part ways with Cerberus.

I can only imagine the dinner conversation should Miranda choose to become The Illusive Woman:

Shepard: You should tell Hephaestus Cell to keep a lower profile.

Miranda: The Council's breathing down your neck again?

Shepard: They're talking about a seek-and-destroy mission. After what happened last time I really don't want to blow up another complex.

Miranda: (smirks) It would appear that you have a conflict of interest Commander Shepard.

Shepard: Yes, but I love my conflict of interest.