82210 réponses à ce sujet

[nitefyre410]

CrutchCricket wrote...

jtav wrote...
Speaking of comics, anybody else get Norman Osborn vibes from Mr. Lawson?

I don't know... Given all this legacy talk and how many questionable things he may have done in its pursuit I'm thinking more Mr. Sinister.

 

and guess what Mr.Essex did exactly that but  and  just  like Miranda she is fighting against him taking over...

Though I can still see the comparison between Mr.Lawson and  Norman espeically when  the ultimate version but that did not turn out to  well for  Harry and I not keen on see Miranda pummeled by her crazy father.

[naledgeborn]

Doom would invite Reed Richards to a cup of tea. Have a chess match with him while playing the most auspicious host and chat with him about his plans to take over the world. And he'd politely ask Reed not to get involved since he's partial to avoiding senseless violence. But warns him that if he does he won't hesitate to crush him like the meddlesome bug he is.

He's benevolent bad guy. Far from arch-typical.

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Interesting sidenote: The Ultimate version of Galactus, Gah Lak Tus is a fleet of giant robots, vaguely cephelopodian in appearance that drains planets of resources and considers organic life abhorent. Sound familiar? (it looks more like Matrix squiddies though)

You know what? You are right. Bioware is not thinking big enough with the Reapers.
Shepard should have to recreate the Big Bang in order to defeat them...five times in total.

[AgitatedLemon]

MisterJB wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...
OT: Cerberus' depiction as a comic book villain should be considered a compliment.

lol I gotta agree with this. Comic book villains kick ass. Know who else is a comic book villain?
This guy:
snip

I'm partial towards:


He is someone I can sympatize with, I can see his side of the story, I see reason in his argument.
Galactus is, quite literally, a GOD. Nothing is more boring.

There are 5 great comic villains.

Magneto
The Joker
Galactus
Venom (Or any of the SpiderMan symbiotes)
Dr. Doom

And, Galactus isn't a god. He's immortal, but he isn't a god. He used to be a normal... whatever his species was.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 06 janvier 2012 - 09:07 .

[flemm]

naledgeborn wrote...

He's benevolent bad guy. Far from arch-typical.

Well, I just think he's a really effective villain of a certain type. He's a megalomaniac, basically. He wants power, that's all there is to it. He's rational, even honorable in certain respects, but he's simple in a way that, for example, Magneto is not.

Modifié par flemm, 06 janvier 2012 - 09:08 .

[MisterJB]

Are you seriously placing Lex Luthor and Norman Osborn below Galactus? He's barely a villain, he's more like a force of nature.
Galactus belonged to the Multiverse that existed before this one. Now, he has a Deus Ex Machina that can nullify all of existence. He is a God.

[AgitatedLemon]

MisterJB wrote...

Are you seriously placing Lex Luthor and Norman Osborn below Galactus? He's barely a villain, he's more like a force of nature.
Galactus belonged to the Multiverse that existed before this one. Now, he has a Deus Ex Machina that can nullify all of existence. He is a God.

Lex Luthor is incredibly uninteresting, much like anything concerning Superman.

I had forgotten about Norman Osborne, make that 6 great villains.

[naledgeborn]

Magneto is complex because both he and Charles Xavier were both based on Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and El Hajj Malik El Shabazz (Malcolm X) respectively. Lee and Kirby made them in that era.

It's natural to get complex characters when they're based on real people.

[AgitatedLemon]

And if you think Galactus is boring with his incredible power, look at post-crisis Superman.

Mary Sue was outdone.

[MisterJB]

Superman is boring, no argument there. However, he is still more interesting than Galactus.
What makes Galactus boring is not his incredible power but rather that he appears to have little purpose beyond consuming planets. He has no real feelings or emotions.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 janvier 2012 - 09:19 .

[AgitatedLemon]

MisterJB wrote...

Superman is boring, no argument there. However, he is still more interesting than Galactus.
What makes Galactus boring is not his incredible power but rather that he appears to have little purpose beyond consuming planets. He has no real feelings or emotions.

But his helmet is SO silly looking!

[nitefyre410]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

And if you think Galactus is boring with his incredible power, look at post-crisis Superman.

Mary Sue was outdone.

 

Mr I can shift my vision to see in the extra Dimensional plains of the existence.  


Galactus is not boring and well he is not immortal you just don't want to kill him because well bad things happen...very bad things.


If TIM feel along the lines of Magneto that could be pretty interesting becasue we could  have  Leng play  the Starscream to TIM and  turn who could towards the Reapers. While TIM  keeps what loyal forces he has to him... you know still can't trust him but  your still going need him. I think TIM  is at his best at playing that role.

[AgitatedLemon]

Did you just say Starscream and Magneto in the same sentence?

Starscream is clinically retarded, and Magneto is a genius....

[flemm]

naledgeborn wrote...

Magneto is complex because both he and Charles Xavier were both based on Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and El Hajj Malik El Shabazz (Malcolm X) respectively. Lee and Kirby made them in that era.

It's natural to get complex characters when they're based on real people.

No doubt. I was just using that as an example.

Magneto is a villain of a different type than Red Skull/Dr. Doom. He's not just interested in personal power. He's an idealist, same as a Xavier, and he's selfless, same as Xavier. He doesn't just want to rule or consolidate power for himself.

The difference is philosophical, he doesn't have the same faith as Xavier in the goodwill of others, so he largely disagrees about the methods that must be employed to ensure the safety and survival of "mutantkind."

So, that's how a lot of people want TIM to be, I think. And I agree (replace "mutantkind" with "humanity").

It actually seems that Cerberus will retain at least an element of that type of complexity in ME3. But perhaps less than would have been desirable.

Edit: clarity.

Modifié par flemm, 06 janvier 2012 - 09:26 .

[nitefyre410]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Did you just say Starscream and Magneto in the same sentence?

Starscream is clinically retarded, and Magneto is a genius....

 


Play the Starcream its a  character trope 


It character a that basically does what   Starscream did best...  Kei Leng  would a combination of the another trope the Dragon and the Starscream.   


The Starscream

Modifié par nitefyre410, 06 janvier 2012 - 09:27 .

[AgitatedLemon]

flemm wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Magneto is complex because both he and Charles Xavier were both based on Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and El Hajj Malik El Shabazz (Malcolm X) respectively. Lee and Kirby made them in that era.

It's natural to get complex characters when they're based on real people.

No doubt. My point was simply that Magneto is a villain of a different type. He's not just interested in personal power. He's an idealist, same as a Xavier, and he's selfless, same as Xavier. He doesn't just want to rule or consolidate power. He doesn't have the same faith as Xavier in the goodwill of others, so he largely disagrees about the methods that must be employed to ensure the safety and survival of "mutantkind."

So, that's how a lot of people want TIM to be, I think. And I agree (replace "mutantlind" with "humanity").

It actually seems that Cerberus wil retain at least an element of that type of complexity in ME3. But perhaps than than would have been desirable.

This.

And all will be forgiven of TIM's sudden stupidity in ME3 if Invasion explains and gives a good reason for his sudden dickishness.

[android654]

To be fair, Magneto doesn't necessarily fit the archetype of "comic book villain." Its mostly because the concept of good guys v.s. bad guys doesn't really apply to the X-men. The concept can be more applied to people trying to resolve the issue of genocide or abuse from a governing structure for being of a certain group.

Also, a huge part of the ME2 plot was designed around you trying to decide T.I.M.'s motivations and whether or not the use or abuse of his position is justified in the name of human preservation. That's you have Miranda, Jacob and Jack. They represent the pro, skeptical, and negative sides to Cerberus' actions.

Modifié par android654, 06 janvier 2012 - 09:29 .

[naledgeborn]

flemm wrote...

No doubt. I was just using that as an example.

Magneto is a villain of a different type than Red Skull/Dr. Doom. He's not just interested in personal power. He's an idealist, same as a Xavier, and he's selfless, same as Xavier. He doesn't just want to rule or consolidate power for himself.

The difference is philosophical, he doesn't have the same faith as Xavier in the goodwill of others, so he largely disagrees about the methods that must be employed to ensure the safety and survival of "mutantkind."

So, that's how a lot of people want TIM to be, I think. And I agree (replace "mutantlind" with "humanity").

It actually seems that Cerberus wil retain at least an element of that type of complexity in ME3. But perhaps than than would have been desirable.

On the money with that one flemm. Out of the comic book realm I'd want TIM to be more like the Smoking/Cancer Man from X-Files. He's ruthless and does some monstrous ****, but he's taken it upon himself to become this evil to prevent an even greater evil from enslaving humanity.

[AgitatedLemon]

android654 wrote...

To be fair, Magneto doesn't necessarily fit the archetype of "comic book villain." Its mostly because the concept of good guys v.s. bad guys doesn't really apply to the X-men. The concept can be more applied to people trying to resolve the issue of genocide or abuse from a governing structure for being of a certain group.

That's why I think the X-men would have been better in some other form.

I don't think Comic Books (With their stereotypically nerdy association) can convey such strong issues.

For an example (Somewhat unrelated), see the latest Twilight movie. Twilight and abortion aren't 2 words you say in the same sentence.

[nitefyre410]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

android654 wrote...

To be fair, Magneto doesn't necessarily fit the archetype of "comic book villain." Its mostly because the concept of good guys v.s. bad guys doesn't really apply to the X-men. The concept can be more applied to people trying to resolve the issue of genocide or abuse from a governing structure for being of a certain group.

That's why I think the X-men would have been better in some other form.

I don't think Comic Books (With their stereotypically nerdy association) can convey such strong issues.

For an example (Somewhat unrelated), see the latest Twilight movie. Twilight and abortion aren't 2 words you say in the same sentence.

 

To answer you eariler post about  me using Starscream and  Erk in the same sentence  did mean Starscream  the character...meant  the Starscream  character trope...

http://tvtropes.org/...n/TheStarscream 


As to your  X-men point ... you may be right but  at the  time  comics where most likely the only way that  Lee and Kirby were going to get  that massage across. 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 06 janvier 2012 - 09:41 .

[AgitatedLemon]

nitefyre410 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

android654 wrote...

To be fair, Magneto doesn't necessarily fit the archetype of "comic book villain." Its mostly because the concept of good guys v.s. bad guys doesn't really apply to the X-men. The concept can be more applied to people trying to resolve the issue of genocide or abuse from a governing structure for being of a certain group.

That's why I think the X-men would have been better in some other form.

I don't think Comic Books (With their stereotypically nerdy association) can convey such strong issues.

For an example (Somewhat unrelated), see the latest Twilight movie. Twilight and abortion aren't 2 words you say in the same sentence.

 

To answer you eariler post about  me using Starscream and  Erk in the same sentence  did mean Starscream  the character...meant  the Starscream  character trope...

http://tvtropes.org/...n/TheStarscream 


As to your  X-men point ... you may be right but  at the  time  comics where most likely the only way that  Lee and Kirby were going to get  that massage across. 

I know. I saw your earlier edit...

On X-men, thank god, that since it WAS done via comic book, it was Stan Lee and Jack Kirby (RIP).

I don't think any other major writer (Or company, for that matter) could have handled such sensitive matters in a fashion they did.

[android654]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

android654 wrote...

To be fair, Magneto doesn't necessarily fit the archetype of "comic book villain." Its mostly because the concept of good guys v.s. bad guys doesn't really apply to the X-men. The concept can be more applied to people trying to resolve the issue of genocide or abuse from a governing structure for being of a certain group.

That's why I think the X-men would have been better in some other form.

I don't think Comic Books (With their stereotypically nerdy association) can convey such strong issues.

For an example (Somewhat unrelated), see the latest Twilight movie. Twilight and abortion aren't 2 words you say in the same sentence.

          
Its one of those concepts that were seemingly more relevant back in the early 70's when it was introduced. While it did at times (and for long periods) would venture into the oddest and most obscure areas, the concept was always something that was applicable to the real world. Then it became a banner for anyone who felt slightly different or marginalized by the world at large, which is something better left to a teen driven novel like twilight, the hunger games, or tomorrow when they war began.

The only good thing about it being a comic is its been kept alive for more than forty years, and it s been allowed to be reintroduced with the themes that made it important to a new audience.

What I was originally trying to say about Magneto is that neither him nor Xavier are right or wrong since the thesis of what they consider to be a "resolution" are basically the same; peace for their people. Which brings me back to Miranda and TIM. I think the comparrison to Magneto and TIM are fair, if his desire is truly human dominance and not something more sinister. Miranda is also like Magneto since she's proven to be the type of person who would be willing to do just about anything to achieve her goals, with little thought to the enemy, while Xavier would have been a pure pacifist if he wasn't pushed by MAgneto or the government.

While I think Stan Lee is great with concepts, I thought Grant Morrison did a way better job with dialogue and character concepts in The New X-Men. But, Stan Lee deserves a lot of credit for coming up with the concept, I doubt anyone else at the time and few people since have genuinely come up with the idea of making heroes out of persecuted people.

Modifié par android654, 06 janvier 2012 - 09:48 .

[nitefyre410]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

android654 wrote...

To be fair, Magneto doesn't necessarily fit the archetype of "comic book villain." Its mostly because the concept of good guys v.s. bad guys doesn't really apply to the X-men. The concept can be more applied to people trying to resolve the issue of genocide or abuse from a governing structure for being of a certain group.

That's why I think the X-men would have been better in some other form.

I don't think Comic Books (With their stereotypically nerdy association) can convey such strong issues.

For an example (Somewhat unrelated), see the latest Twilight movie. Twilight and abortion aren't 2 words you say in the same sentence.

 

To answer you eariler post about  me using Starscream and  Erk in the same sentence  did mean Starscream  the character...meant  the Starscream  character trope...

http://tvtropes.org/...n/TheStarscream 


As to your  X-men point ... you may be right but  at the  time  comics where most likely the only way that  Lee and Kirby were going to get  that massage across. 

I know. I saw your earlier edit...

On X-men, thank god, that since it WAS done via comic book, it was Stan Lee and Jack Kirby (RIP).

I don't think any other major writer (Or company, for that matter) could have handled such sensitive matters in a fashion they did.

 

Cool


and Exactly  though the creator of the Star Trek  try but since that was on TV he had to really subtle and carefull.   Lee and Kirby had more  wiggle.


Thats were I think  Bioware kinda missed the ball with Mass Effect and Cerberus  they could have told an entertaining story  with  Mass Effect  and had  great game  that was fun to play with solid mechanics that was fun to play and still have some deeper points and questions come across.   Dispite its  what some may say about Metal Gear Solid it proved that it could be done.