67443 réponses à ce sujet

[dirae]

jeweledleah wrote...

it turns her from a spunky independant girl into immature doormat.  it takes a character that normaly calls out Shepard on whatever bull Shepard throws at her and turns her into someone who thinks with her ovaries and goes for a jerk.  it makes her into a character, that i cannot like, cannot romance

The doormat part I don't see. Maybe a mild kink. For the people who had Tali romanced by renegade Shep, that's more their canon than mine, though. Maybe if she subverted her identity and beliefs for @sshole Shep, I'd see it. But luckily not moreso than anyone who had to join Cerberus for plot reasons (Shepard, too).

Kaidan is supposed to be a mature individual who deals with his issues, who doesn't need fixing, who doesn't take **** from anyone, including Shepard.  turning him into Tali, will ruin his romance for me, regardless of sexual orientation, but with maleshep it will be even more jarring then femshep due to the fact that this individual who normaly cannot hide his feelings very well, somehow managed to hide them all through ME1. 

I think we're lucky that Bioware cares about Kaidan. More than some of the fanbase (us excluded?). I don't see why they would turn him into a tali-like character. Or why gender would make him into tali. I also don't agree that Kaidan can't hide his feelings for female Shep has anything to do with him hiding feelings for Maleshep. Those are seperate issues, imho.

if they write his romance as something thats fresh and new and based on fresh and new interactions on ME3 alone?  no issues.

That's generous! JK. I like that idea. But also it'd be nice if they built upon the respect and admiration they had in ME1. As the saying goes love is just friendship put on fire.

but who cares what I like or don't like, right?  i don't matter and most people who feel similarly to me - prefer to stay quiet, becasue they see the backlash I end up dealing with and don't want to deal with same.

I care what you think. I wouldn't reply if I didn't or if what you said wasn't at least interesting. And if you do get backlash, I like to think that we your fellow Kaidan fans would back you up.

jeweledleah wrote...

whoever that doctor was, I'm thankful
for her. because she symbolizes an attempt to start living again, to
move on, to love again, to try and be happy again. its very Kaidan like
to try and work out the issues instead of letting them fester in a sort
of "forever alone" mire.

Abso-friggin'-loutly.
If Kaidan was forever alone for ANY reason, it wouldn't be some flimsy excuse like romance. His biotics would take over and he'd be crippled by mental issues or migraines. He'd throw himself into work because the WAR needs him. He's an adult.

Modifié par dirae, 15 février 2012 - 10:12 .

[M-Taylor]

(( I think I may be waaaay late to this debate, but it's a subject I do care about so I'mma voice my opinion anyway ))

I'm quite disappointed in reading so much negative reception for s/s, I don't know, as a lurker I felt this was probably one of the nicest threads going (not trying to suck up, just being honest). I know probably no-one meant it that way, but several posts come accross as *very* homophobic..

I do support Kaidan s/s, and I support s/s in pretty much any game to be quite honest. There's no such thing as it being out of character for anyone, for the simple fact that, that way of thinking is archaic and panders to the sterotype of 'all lesbians are butch and all gays are sissys'. What I'm trying to say is, saying it's out of character for someone not to be gay sounds offensive, atleast to me. It contributes to the majority opinion that being gay is rare/negative and you have to have a very spercific personality for being gay.

Another reason I support s/s in almost anything is the media itself. It holds such influence that I don't think people even realise it does, and the fact that s/s has been outlawed in the majority of things contributes to the fact that homophobia is still quite common and not really targeted as discrimination until it gets very serious. I mean, I overhear casual homophobia all the time, but hardly any racism at all. It's almost like, as a culture, we accept that racism is bad but homophobia isn't, and that's always confused me because the two are interchangable. Individuals feel it's bad to discriminate over ethnic origins, something people can't control, but are fine with discrimination against homosexuality, again something people can't control. Anyway, went of on a minor tangent there; my main point is, if s/s appears more frequently in media then people would likely be more accepting of it.

This is probably only applical to UK forum posters, but I remember when they introduced a gay character/couple into a British soap called Eastenders, and golly did I read some very intense homophobic comments on the internet. It's just so surprising that in this modern day culture where liberty and equality is probably the most defining factors of society that very bias and archaic views like homophobia still exist, and exist in masses too.

And lastly, my main point which spercifically is about Kaidan, why are people assuming it's 'out of character' anyway? Because he didn't flirt with mShepard in Mass Effect 1 and a romance wasn't an option? Well I could tell you a story about a real life friend; I had known him since we were 14 but I only found out when we were 21 that he was bisexual. He didn't keep it secret, he merely didn't find any men attractive enough to date until we turned 21, so basically I was unaware of his sexuality for 7 years. And on top of that, he confessed he liked me, a male, for the first two years in which we were friends. He simply didn't tell me because he didn't feel the need too (I'm an asexual and have been 'out' for years, like seriously since I was 12/13).

So yeah. What's to say Kaidan was never bisexual? Because he didn't want to engage with a mShepard? He's in the military, he could be thinking of 'regs' for all we know. On top of that, he might've thought Shepard was straight and didn't see the point in complicating things for no reason.

Anyway.. Rather a long post, I apologise, but it's a touchy subject for me and I was quite disappointed to see that the apparant majority view was against s/s Kaidan.,

[Major Alenko]

ughh ME3 avatar items... goodbye microsoft points >.> Though I think they need to add Kaidan's armor on there as well.

[Queen Deadite]

Microsoft and iTunes get all my money too.

[Estelindis]

IsaacShep wrote...

Liesel12 wrote...
Seriously, can't there be some characters in a game that are plain straight

Jacob, Miranda, Tali, Garrus, Thane, Jack ain't enough? 

Considering that I didn't romance any of them, only Kaidan... no, they weren't really enough for me at all.  

I feel ambivalent about this news.  In some ways, I'm happy for the S/S crowd.  In other ways, I found the consistent romantic arc with Kaidan and female Shepard from the first game until now to be sufficiently convincing that I would have thought that if he cared that way about male Shepard that he at least would have made some effort to find out which way Shepard swung.  I've read all the arguments to the contrary, particularly some really good ones from Isaac, and I get where they're coming from...  I guess at some level, it just feels a bit unfair to me.  Think of the uproar that we'd hear if people kept advocating for a character who had been written as gay to be available for opposite sex romance.  "You want to convert gays" would probably be the response, and the people would probably be seen as very politically incorrect.  Still, on the other hand, we didn't have a character who was written as purely gay in ME1 to be thus converted.  

I don't know.  My emotions are confused!  Even though I'm not losing anything - my Shepard will still have Kaidan - I feel as if I'm losing something.    To me, everyone else's playthroughs have always been an alternate universe anyway... so I can easily say "in someone else's universe, Kaidan is bi; in mine, where he never shows attraction to men, he's straight."  But I still feel, somehow, as if what happens in other people's games retroactively affects Kaidan because, really, a character can only have one real nature, can't they?  Let me put it like this: in one world, where Shep was a renegade, Kaidan found her point of view to be persuasive and came to see things a bit more as she did, while, in another where she was a paragon, he found himself agreeing with a more altruistic point of view.  But, ultimately, both had to be explained persuasively and he had a certain intrinsic potential to see things from either point of view, even though in any given game only one or the other could happen.  Thus, I feel like "my" Kaidan's intrinsic potential is altered by this, and I just don't know that I feel really happy with that.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone.  I really am partially happy for the S/S fans, because Kaidan is awesome no matter what your gender and sexual preference and it's great that we're all fans of him together!  I just find my feelings are mixed up.  Peace and out.

[you-aholic]

txmn1016 wrote...

Can we report StonedBatman now? I think they have officially broken at least one, if not mutiple BSN rules.

Do it. I've bored of hearing this troll. Pretty much Offending People's sexuality. They need to return to the 50's.

[Anassiel]

so, um, maybe this time someone will notice - guys, what are playable races for mp? hanar, maybe? ;3 *wishful thinking*

***

ok, i'll probably end up getting stoned to death, but i really don't want to start a fire again, i just find this pic hilarious... and cute ;3
[inappropriate image removed]
found on tumblr, no idea who's the author, sorry

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 15 février 2012 - 11:38 .

[Major Alenko]

M-Taylor wrote...
This is probably only applical to UK forum posters, but I remember when they introduced a gay character/couple into a British soap called Eastenders, and golly did I read some very intense homophobic comments on the internet. It's just so surprising that in this modern day culture where liberty and equality is probably the most defining factors of society that very bias and archaic views like homophobia still exist, and exist in masses too.

I don't remember Eastenders, though I do remember it in coronation street, with Todd, it was like the biggest thing ever (to the press anyway). Wasn't it supposed to have been the first gay kiss on prewatershed TV or something? I remember the papers where like ITV you let us down ect Even the press were homophobic back then and I *think* that was 2004, sounds like the dark ages. 

[slyborg]

Played the demo at 2am. Oh boy. I cannot wait to see Kaidan in the full game.

[dirae]

[quote]M-Taylor wrote...
And lastly, my main point which spercifically is about Kaidan, why are people assuming it's 'out of character' anyway? Because he didn't flirt with mShepard in Mass Effect 1 and a romance wasn't an option? Well I could tell you a story about a real life friend; I had known him since we were 14 but I only found out when we were 21 that he was bisexual. He didn't keep it secret, he merely didn't find any men attractive enough to date until we turned 21, so basically I was unaware of his sexuality for 7 years. And on top of that, he confessed he liked me, a male, for the first two years in which we were friends. He simply didn't tell me because he didn't feel the need too (I'm an asexual and have been 'out' for years, like seriously since I was 12/13).[/quote]
THIS.
[quote]
So yeah. What's to say Kaidan was never bisexual? Because he didn't want to engage with a mShepard? He's in the military, he could be thinking of 'regs' for all we know. On top of that, he might've thought Shepard was straight and didn't see the point in complicating things for no reason.[/quote]
[/quote]
Omission is not retcon. Yes. And thank you for sharing your story. It's 2012 but we still live in a time when kids live in fear about who they are. They keep their sexual identities in a steel-bear-trap for fear of being found out. Some people are good at hiding. Some people hide for decades. But fear isn't always the reason a person stays closeted. Some people are in the closet and you'd never know-- not because they want you think they're straight, but because they don't mention they're gay for whatever reason. They don't feel like sharing, they never think it's an issue to bring up, they assume you know, or in my case, they thought they already did. haha

Modifié par dirae, 15 février 2012 - 10:27 .

[slyborg]

Petr0nella wrote...

Queen Deadite wrote...

I always got the feeling Dr Michele want Garrus

I agree - the letter in ME2 was like "Hey so you're not dead! Now...about Garrus..."

Yeah, I think she's got Turian fever. 

[SolidBeast]

Estelindis wrote...

 "You want to convert gays" would probably be the response, and the people would probably be seen as very politically incorrect. 

It would, if the character openly identified as gay. Does Kaidan openly state he is straight?

[dirae]

[inappropriate image removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 15 février 2012 - 11:38 .

[jeweledleah]

dirae wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

it turns her from a spunky independant girl into immature doormat.  it takes a character that normaly calls out Shepard on whatever bull Shepard throws at her and turns her into someone who thinks with her ovaries and goes for a jerk.  it makes her into a character, that i cannot like, cannot romance

The doormat part I don't see. Maybe a mild kink. For the people who had Tali romanced by renegade Shep, that's more their canon than mine, though. Maybe if she subverted her identity and beliefs for @sshole Shep, I'd see it. But luckily not moreso than anyone who had to join Cerberus for plot reasons (Shepard, too).

Kaidan is supposed to be a mature individual who deals with his issues, who doesn't need fixing, who doesn't take **** from anyone, including Shepard.  turning him into Tali, will ruin his romance for me, regardless of sexual orientation, but with maleshep it will be even more jarring then femshep due to the fact that this individual who normaly cannot hide his feelings very well, somehow managed to hide them all through ME1. 

I think we're lucky that Bioware cares about Kaidan. More than some of the fanbase (us excluded?). I don't see why they would turn him into a tali-like character. Or why gender would make him into tali. I also don't agree that Kaidan can't hide his feelings for female Shep has anything to do with him hiding feelings for Maleshep. Those are seperate issues, imho.

if they write his romance as something thats fresh and new and based on fresh and new interactions on ME3 alone?  no issues.

That's generous! JK. I like that idea. But also it'd be nice if they built upon the respect and admiration they had in ME1. As the saying goes love is just friendship put on fire.

but who cares what I like or don't like, right?  i don't matter and most people who feel similarly to me - prefer to stay quiet, becasue they see the backlash I end up dealing with and don't want to deal with same.

I care what you think. I wouldn't reply if I didn't or if what you said wasn't at least interesting. And if you do get backlash, I like to think that we your fellow Kaidan fans would back you up.

jeweledleah wrote...

whoever that doctor was, I'm thankful
for her. because she symbolizes an attempt to start living again, to
move on, to love again, to try and be happy again. its very Kaidan like
to try and work out the issues instead of letting them fester in a sort
of "forever alone" mire.

Abso-friggin'-loutly.
If Kaidan was forever alone for ANY reason, it wouldn't be some flimsy excuse like romance. His biotics would take over and he'd be crippled by mental issues or migraines. He'd throw himself into work because the WAR needs him. He's an adult.

gah, that's a large quote, sorry, but i have to run and I wanted to reply quickly before i do, so no formating to make it less cumbersome.  Tali - you can be pretty pro Cerberus with her.  you can give them Veetor.  you can be pretty brisk with her, you can defend Cerberus to her, and you can encourage quarians to go to war. 

I'm good with friendship and admiration turning to love.  I liked that part about Garrus romance.  that's what I was trying to mean, by ME3 being the starting point of the romance.  its the preexisting, hethero unknown crush that bothers me.  and no, regulations woudln't be anymore of a barrier then they were with femshep, as I don't beleive there's such thing as don't ask dont tell in mass effect universe.

and thank you for the offer to back me up, but the backlash i get is FROM Kaidan fans, a lot of the time.  simply becasue s/s for kaidan is not something I personaly want and would prefer for it not to happen. becasue a lot of time, its taken to mean that i don't support s/s relationships, period.  I do.  I just dislike the idea of expanding existing LI's.  I'm sorry, I can accept it if it happens and works within overall portrayal of the character (and hiding a crush for 3 years, even through the death, i don't beleive is in character for Kaidan, the same Kaidan who tries to move on after Shepard he actualy actively was in romance with, and date someone), but I cannot make myself like it.

and on that note, time for me to go and catch up on all the things i've been procrastinating on today.

[Queen Deadite]

Kaid being gay for me is a foreign idea. Kind of like Alistair. I don't see it but then again I don't have to. I think that there should be multiple love interest and some should be either straight or gay much like the real world. And before anyone jumps all over me about being bi, even bi you are still going to lean more one way than the other.

I think that the ambiguity in the BioWare games can be lazy, but who am I to say that someone else shouldn't get to let their characters love, Fenris, Anders or even Kaidan. It is after all only a game.

Now my hot husband on the other hand I would hurt someone over.

Btw how many of you are parents? He brought that up recently and I'm like but then no xbox t hat doesn't work for me.

*eye twitches as I glare at the phone*  ***king auto word spell you suck

Modifié par Queen Deadite, 15 février 2012 - 10:34 .

[dirae]

SolidBeast wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

 "You want to convert gays" would probably be the response, and the people would probably be seen as very politically incorrect. 

It would, if the character openly identified as gay. Does Kaidan openly state he is straight?

Exactly. Btw, I think it's equally idiotic when ANYONE has to say "I'm gay" not because I don't wanna hear it. But because it's almost a ritual people expect of gay people so we can decide how we think of them and where to put them in our headspace.
Straight people don't say "I'm straight"  (unless they're confused).

[shepskisaac]

Estelindis wrote...
Think of the uproar that we'd hear if people kept advocating for a character who had been written as gay to be available for opposite sex romance.  "You want to convert gays" would probably be the response, and the people would probably be seen as very politically incorrect.  Still, on the other hand, we didn't have a character who was written as purely gay in ME1 to be thus converted.  

You have a point, however, if this series had 5 or so gay guys to romance for male Shep, and not a single girl to romance for straight man Shep players, I would have zero problems sharing one of them, even if it wasn't until part 3 that one of these guys is revealed to be bi. Furthermore, as much as I may have not liked it, if none of these 'gay' guys was clearly established as NOT liking women at all, I wouldn't really have an argument to complain. If something isn't told, it doesn't mean it's not there. Writing (in everything, movies, books, comics, games) depends constantly on new information beign provided, old info being viewed in new light.

[SolidBeast]

dirae wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

 "You want to convert gays" would probably be the response, and the people would probably be seen as very politically incorrect. 

It would, if the character openly identified as gay. Does Kaidan openly state he is straight?

Exactly. Btw, I think it's equally idiotic when ANYONE has to say "I'm gay" not because I don't wanna hear it. But because it's almost a ritual people expect of gay people so we can decide how we think of them and where to put them in our headspace.
Straight people don't say "I'm straight"  (unless they're confused).

Well said. Same goes for saying "I'm bisexual".

[Petr0nella]

Btw how many of you are parents? He brought that up recently and I'm like but then no xbox t hat doesn't work for me.

This is actually the reason I give for not wanting kids right now. So far my husband is ok with it...

[Ryzaki]

*pops in thread*

This reminds me of the pre-release DA2 Fenris thread honestly. So much drama over s/s.

Play and let play I'll say. As long as no one keeps giggling in my face and telling me how the wub my Shepard (HI THERE TALI AND LIARA!) IDGAF.

That and ninjaing (Ash, Kaidan, Please for the love of god stop ninjaing me. I should not have to do mental gynmastics to avoid a goddamn romance. GTFO. TY).

If I can avoid that I'm happy.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 février 2012 - 10:39 .

[dstrawberrygirl]

In ME1, Kaidan could either end up wanting to save the council or sacrifice them. He developed along a path that you decided for him, your presence and actions altered the story. Maybe he was always a renegade. Maybe he wasn't. No-one said at the start of the game whether he was

He's a super character, now people get more choice over how their version of the story plays out. That's a good thing and I'm really pleased Bioware decided to make that choice a legitimate option for people who were hoping for that version of the story, and not force people to hack saves to see it happen.

[dirae]

jeweledleah wrote...

and thank you for the offer to back me up, but the backlash i get is FROM Kaidan fans, a lot of the time.  simply becasue s/s for kaidan is not something I personaly want and would prefer for it not to happen. becasue a lot of time, its taken to mean that i don't support s/s relationships, period.  I do.  I just dislike the idea of expanding existing LI's.  I'm sorry, I can accept it if it happens and works within overall portrayal of the character (and hiding a crush for 3 years, even through the death, i don't beleive is in character for Kaidan, the same Kaidan who tries to move on after Shepard he actualy actively was in romance with, and date someone), but I cannot make myself like it.

and on that note, time for me to go and catch up on all the things i've been procrastinating on today.

aww. Maybe I come from a weirder , harsher internet background. This is the nicest messageboard thread I've ever seen. I've seen it get heated and intense, but no backlash. I'm talkin' personal threats, trojans, you name it.

The thing that I like most about this thread is we can attack ideas, but not the people who make them. And I'm glad when people can see the difference. Aside from a few trolls, I think we're doing remarkably well.

<3
My mShep. testing out faces
wanted to see if blue eyes looked as good on msheps as they do femsheps in me3. I think he looks like Sheploo.

Modifié par dirae, 15 février 2012 - 10:41 .

[txmn1016]

@dirae

That's a great looking shep!

[txmn1016]

you-aholic wrote...

txmn1016 wrote...

Can we report StonedBatman now? I think they have officially broken at least one, if not mutiple BSN rules.

Do it. I've bored of hearing this troll. Pretty much Offending People's sexuality. They need to return to the 50's.

Done.  They've been making hateful comments on other boards too.  It's so sad to know that kind of thinking still exists.

[Soccerchic6]

Petr0nella wrote...

Btw how many of you are parents? He brought that up recently and I'm like but then no xbox t hat doesn't work for me.

This is actually the reason I give for not wanting kids right now. So far my husband is ok with it...

Haha, my husband and I have been married for 6 1/2 years and from day one people have been asking when we're going to start having kids. While we would love to start (getting pregnant is not as easy for some people), we enjoy the "freedom" that we have right now. We're both gamers, and I love being able to get on xbox whenever I want to play whatever game I want.

EDIT: @ dirae: Love your mShep!

ToP by Sakuna

Modifié par Soccerchic6, 15 février 2012 - 10:47 .