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Major Kaidan Alenko in ME3: We're going to need a bigger boot.


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#7801
Chewin

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TeenZombie wrote...
I honestly don't think many players who had those complaints actually bothered to talk to Kaidan or Jacob.  They just saw Normal Human Male Party Member and said "boooooring" and went to talk to the awesome aliens or human females, who get a pass because they don't threaten male player's dominance and are likely to please female players who are less likely to find female human characters threatening.


Jacob would have been a lot more interesting had he talked about his time as a Corsair rather than about his abs.

#7802
syllogi

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Chewin3 wrote...

Jacob would have been a lot more interesting had he talked about his time as a Corsair rather than about his abs.


But he didn't do that.  I agree that stories about his time as a Corsair would have been nice, but Jacob doesn't brag -- and we didn't get dialogue about his iPhone game because we had to play and beat it to unlock it (awful, awful idea, by the way).  

My own problems with Jacob came from the way his romance was developed, I just didn't find it tempting.  But as a party member, he's fine.  I just wish friendships in ME2 were as fleshed out as romance paths, because you really don't get to know any of the party members very well if you stay single.

#7803
jeweledleah

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TeenZombie wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

Jacob would have been a lot more interesting had he talked about his time as a Corsair rather than about his abs.


But he didn't do that.  I agree that stories about his time as a Corsair would have been nice, but Jacob doesn't brag -- and we didn't get dialogue about his iPhone game because we had to play and beat it to unlock it (awful, awful idea, by the way).  

My own problems with Jacob came from the way his romance was developed, I just didn't find it tempting.  But as a party member, he's fine.  I just wish friendships in ME2 were as fleshed out as romance paths, because you really don't get to know any of the party members very well if you stay single.


wait what?  there's extra dialog with Jacoc if you had beaten the game?

also - shadowbroker having a vid of jacob working out = jacob talking about his abs, now?  reminds me of "he constantly whines about his headache" when Kaidan mentions his headache once in a conversation and only in passing.

Jacob is fine.  and his romance actualy has a great deal of feeling and depth to it, if you manage to get past the aweful comeons and voice over you get from Shepard innitialy. 

#7804
syllogi

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jeweledleah wrote...

wait what?  there's extra dialog with Jacoc if you had beaten the game?


Here's the information on how to unlock it:  http://masseffect.bi...omo_code_redeem

...but I have never seen YouTube video of this dialogue, which is frustrating.  Jacob's role in Mass Effect Galaxy is canon, whether or not you've played and beaten it, so people who don't want to play a poorly reviewed iPhone game shouldn't be penalized when it comes to story in Mass Effect 2.

#7805
jeweledleah

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TeenZombie wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

wait what?  there's extra dialog with Jacoc if you had beaten the game?


Here's the information on how to unlock it:  http://masseffect.bi...omo_code_redeem

...but I have never seen YouTube video of this dialogue, which is frustrating.  Jacob's role in Mass Effect Galaxy is canon, whether or not you've played and beaten it, so people who don't want to play a poorly reviewed iPhone game shouldn't be penalized when it comes to story in Mass Effect 2.


agree on that wholeheartedly.  I wonder if its possible to data mine and/or hack unlock it?

#7806
GarethJShep

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hey i was up game fest to day in birmingham/uk and i played ass effect3 demo (AWSOME) i whent male shep and had ashley williams in my party but if you go female shep you will have kaidan in your party also the movement is much better you can clime up ladder jump acros gaps get into cover even better and in style lol also there are wepon modd bench you can add stuff to your wepons like scopes silencers better grip and parts that increase the rate of fire amd all sorts :) you can even do side way rolls to aviod gun shots biotic and greanade lanchers....you dont have to ware armour all the ime in missions now..you can were normal clothes like you do on the normandy :)

#7807
Jenova65

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Aww, thanks for popping in with that Garethj17 :D It's great to hear that people have seen the VS in a demo for a change....

#7808
rapscallioness

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Yes, definitely thnx for popping in and letting us know!

(Is there coverage of this? Or this the one we don't get to see....:/)

As far as Kaidan and Jacob being boring. Honestly, I don't see it. They had as much and sometimes more backstory and dialogue than Garrus or Tali, etc. The accusation of them being boring is completely unfounded. It really is.

I sometimes think this Kaidan and Jacob dislike comes from some dark corner of many (not all, obviously) male gamers' primal mind. There's a part, an irrational part, in there that simply doesn't like the idea of Their FemShep messing around w/ those "s.o.b's".

I beginning to suspect there's some primitive, territorial thing going on there. And it actually involves FemShep.

Just puttin' it out there....

#7809
Vertigo_1

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Funny, I had just sent a tweet to Casey Hudson today asking when we can see more of the VS in promotional content

Too bad they don't allow recording devices in the booths
Perhaps someone could get a hidden camera in there...

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 18 septembre 2011 - 12:09 .


#7810
Silver77nz

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I think people find Kaidan/Jacob boring cause they both are strong and independent men. Both don't push their issues on you. Both don't need you to rescue them. They are both calm and collected guys, well minus Horizion but I understand Horizion.

As far as Garrus, Liara, Tali, VS being on your squad again in ME3..I don't want actual fighting(they are your main squad right?). I just think that their are convos that need to take place. Clear the air! Like how the VS and Shephard need to talk about Horizion and then move on.

People on the other threads are so cruel to the VS!! Hate they are becoming specters, saying they hope they get a chance to kill them in ME3, ****ing about s/s relationships. I just can't believe how much the VS bothers people.

Anyhoo that is my 2 cents and Gareth I'm jealous females got to actually play with Kaidan lol!

#7811
Kyakan

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Chylise wrote...

Bwhahaha. :lol:

Speaking of Kaidan and Jacob... I don't get it. Back in KOTOR, people complained about Carth "whining" about Karath's betrayal, the bombing of Telos, the death of his wife and assumed death of his son. Which, to me, is totally legit because the war is still happening and affecting Carth, it's not something from his past that he's had time to deal with.

So what does Bioware do? They make two human guys who had issues in the past, but got over them a long time ago. Now people are complaining that they're too boring because they have no issues for the player to fix. *facepalm*


I loved Kaidan and Carth, but didn't really care for Jacob. And before you accuse me of jumping on the hate bandwagon, hear me out...

I agree that Carth had every right to "whine." He had very legitimate problems, and it was actually very interesting to see how they affected him. It really brought the war very close to home when someone so close to the player was that involved in it. It's also worth mentioning that Carth only started talking about his past after the player had been nagging him for, like, six conversations. ("My secrets are all of the mundane variety, I'm afraid. [...] I don't know why you're so interested.")

But no, like you said, the fandumb started screaming for a less complain-y guy, so Bioware delivered with Kaidan and Jacob. They got it right with Kaidan, of course, but with Jacob they took it a step too far. He never seemed "well-adjusted" to me; it was more like nothing ever bothered him in the first place. It was kind of creepy, actually.

Let's compare them.

Kaidan's feelings on his past are made very clear, even through the veil of his current mental state. He's reluctant to talk about it, and when he does, everything is in the 3rd person (ex. "To the kids they hauled in," not "When they hauled us in"). He speaks highly of his friends, namely Rahna, but the closest he ever gets to mentioning himself alongside them is "Maybe she felt the same." When he finally switches to first person (i.e. talking about Vyrnus), he uses a lot of negative imagery ("Like an idiot, I stood up," "I killed him. Snapped his neck."). He only briefly touches on how he dropped off the radar for a few years before coming back to serve the Alliance. The rest is history. Shepard can see how he acts now firsthand.
Hearing all of this, it's easy to see exactly when and how he sorted through his emotions in order to become who he is today. Mostly he did it by distancing himself and learning how to take everything slowly and carefully. Shepard's lines, "You haven't had the easiest life, but I like the man it's made of you" and "Are you always this cautious with a sure thing?" sum this up nicely.

And then there's Jacob.
He had plenty of potential. I really wanted to like him. His time as a Corsair, his decision to join Cerberus. Hearing how he felt about all of that would have sent me over the moon.
Except there's just...nothing.
Every time Shepard asks, he just dismisses it with "I don't like Cerberus, but I like what they're doing. Now shut up." Why? How? What made you feel this way? Don't you feel conflicted at all? How do you cope with everything that's happening? GAH. If you try to ask any of this, he gets mad at you like you're being nosy. Well sor-ry for trying to get to know the crew. It's one thing to be a private person (which is an attractive quality IMO), but with Jacob it really comes off as if he doesn't feel ANYTHING.
Not to mention that, when Kaidan shared his backstory, it showed selflessness. Talking about it bothers him, but he feels it's necessary for Shepard's wellbeing. I'm not saying that Jacob and Kaidan should be exactly the same or anything, but that would have been a very nice trait to carry over in some capacity. If not, then maybe they could have played the Carth card and had him finally open up after lots of wheedling on Shepard's part. Not as good romance-wise because it'd make Shepard seem like a naggy ****, but at least you would actually get to hear about Jacob at some point.

In conclusion: Carth was sympathetic, Kaidan was thoughtful, and Jacob was...kinda hot, I guess.

Okay, rant over. You can throw furniture at me now. *puts on helmet and football gear*

#7812
Kyakan

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Also, a note on why people might think they're boring. Like everyone says, it probably has a lot to do with them being Human Male Party Members. All the Cool Aliens get free passes because, well, they're Cool Aliens. They're inherently more interesting because their species was an original creation of the writer. Humans weren't the author's idea, so human characters have to make up for that with their personality. Unfortunately, personalities are often overshadowed by oh-so epic cutscenes of some Cool Alien dropping in from the ceiling, snapping three people's necks, and shooting someone in the stomach. Sigh...

#7813
jeweledleah

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Garethj17 wrote...

hey i was up game fest to day in birmingham/uk and i played ass effect3 demo (AWSOME) i whent male shep and had ashley williams in my party but if you go female shep you will have kaidan in your party also the movement is much better you can clime up ladder jump acros gaps get into cover even better and in style lol also there are wepon modd bench you can add stuff to your wepons like scopes silencers better grip and parts that increase the rate of fire amd all sorts :) you can even do side way rolls to aviod gun shots biotic and greanade lanchers....you dont have to ware armour all the ime in missions now..you can were normal clothes like you do on the normandy :)


I'm wondering if this is a confirmation of a default Shepard with a default VS, like they did in ME2, or if they just arbitrary decision for demo only?

#7814
Xilizhra

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Kyakan wrote...

Also, a note on why people might think they're boring. Like everyone says, it probably has a lot to do with them being Human Male Party Members. All the Cool Aliens get free passes because, well, they're Cool Aliens. They're inherently more interesting because their species was an original creation of the writer. Humans weren't the author's idea, so human characters have to make up for that with their personality. Unfortunately, personalities are often overshadowed by oh-so epic cutscenes of some Cool Alien dropping in from the ceiling, snapping three people's necks, and shooting someone in the stomach. Sigh...

Or, often enough, never really introduced in the first place.

I admit that most of the human ME squadmates did have personality, but firing off a glancing blow at all the nonhuman ones and implying that they didn't succeed in large part based on personality is uncalled for.

#7815
Kyakan

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Xilizhra wrote...

Kyakan wrote...

Also, a note on why people might think they're boring. Like everyone says, it probably has a lot to do with them being Human Male Party Members. All the Cool Aliens get free passes because, well, they're Cool Aliens. They're inherently more interesting because their species was an original creation of the writer. Humans weren't the author's idea, so human characters have to make up for that with their personality. Unfortunately, personalities are often overshadowed by oh-so epic cutscenes of some Cool Alien dropping in from the ceiling, snapping three people's necks, and shooting someone in the stomach. Sigh...

Or, often enough, never really introduced in the first place.

I admit that most of the human ME squadmates did have personality, but firing off a glancing blow at all the nonhuman ones and implying that they didn't succeed in large part based on personality is uncalled for.


What? Wait! NO! NO! I DIDN'T MEAN THAT!

I'm sorry. I wasn't clear enough. :( Garrus, Wrex, Tali, and Mordin are some of my favorite characters of all time. I was just trying to illustrate why the personalities of human characters are often overlooked.

#7816
Xilizhra

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Kyakan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Kyakan wrote...

Also, a note on why people might think they're boring. Like everyone says, it probably has a lot to do with them being Human Male Party Members. All the Cool Aliens get free passes because, well, they're Cool Aliens. They're inherently more interesting because their species was an original creation of the writer. Humans weren't the author's idea, so human characters have to make up for that with their personality. Unfortunately, personalities are often overshadowed by oh-so epic cutscenes of some Cool Alien dropping in from the ceiling, snapping three people's necks, and shooting someone in the stomach. Sigh...

Or, often enough, never really introduced in the first place.

I admit that most of the human ME squadmates did have personality, but firing off a glancing blow at all the nonhuman ones and implying that they didn't succeed in large part based on personality is uncalled for.


What? Wait! NO! NO! I DIDN'T MEAN THAT!

I'm sorry. I wasn't clear enough. :( Garrus, Wrex, Tali, and Mordin are some of my favorite characters of all time. I was just trying to illustrate why the personalities of human characters are often overlooked.

How often is "often," though? I don't see them as being that overlooked.

#7817
Kyakan

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Xilizhra wrote...

How often is "often," though? I don't see them as being that overlooked.


Weren't we just talking about the hate that Carth and Kaidan get for seemingly no reason? That's what I mean.

#7818
Xilizhra

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Kyakan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How often is "often," though? I don't see them as being that overlooked.


Weren't we just talking about the hate that Carth and Kaidan get for seemingly no reason? That's what I mean.

Is Kaidan honestly hated? The worst I've heard people talking about him in general is that he's kind of boring, which I can see being the case for some Shepards. I like him, but given that he lacks the ideological conflict that Ashley has with mine, and the nonhuman squadmates' more plot-linked stories (though other than Liara, they're admittedly all assignments), I'm not sure how much he brings to the story, other than a biotic perspective.

#7819
jeweledleah

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Xilizhra wrote...

Kyakan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How often is "often," though? I don't see them as being that overlooked.


Weren't we just talking about the hate that Carth and Kaidan get for seemingly no reason? That's what I mean.

Is Kaidan honestly hated? The worst I've heard people talking about him in general is that he's kind of boring, which I can see being the case for some Shepards. I like him, but given that he lacks the ideological conflict that Ashley has with mine, and the nonhuman squadmates' more plot-linked stories (though other than Liara, they're admittedly all assignments), I'm not sure how much he brings to the story, other than a biotic perspective.


there were people who hated him prior to Horizon.  post Horizon, its gotten worse.  I see a lot of hate on DA, in various blogs, etc.  it can be.. disenheartening sometimes.

#7820
Xilizhra

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Given his flirtation with insanity and/or being possessed by Ashley on Horizon... though I suppose that's not really his fault.

#7821
Kyakan

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Xilizhra wrote...
Is Kaidan honestly hated? The worst I've heard people talking about him in general is that he's kind of boring, which I can see being the case for some Shepards.


Really? Omg, I want your life. The hate I've seen him get has been...more colorful. Boring, whiny, useless, teh gayz, and some that refuse to even acknowledge his existence at all.


Xilizhra wrote...
I like him, but given that he lacks the ideological conflict that Ashley has with mine,


He has a lot of "ideological conflict" with my Shepard. She has blinders on either side of her head and a six-foot pole up her butt, and needs him to help her think more clearly. Hooray for heroes that kind of fail at being heroes! :P


Xilizhra wrote...
and the nonhuman squadmates' more plot-linked stories (though other than Liara, they're admittedly all assignments), I'm not sure how much he brings to the story, other than a biotic perspective.


I think that, after ME2, it's a bit unfair to say that anyone has no place in the story due to lack of personal relevance. ME2's whole plot was pretty much collecting characters that were peripherally related at best - which may have been a good thing, actually. Shepard has to build an army, and that needs to be represented with lots and lots of characters. Making them all have some kind of individual, personal connection with the Reapers the way Shepard did would seem a bit contrived.
*giggles* And that just gave me a mental image of PROTHEAN BEACONS EVERYWHERE!!!

#7822
Xilizhra

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Really? Omg, I want your life. The hate I've seen him get has been...more colorful. Boring, whiny, useless, teh gayz, and some that refuse to even acknowledge his existence at all.

Teh gayz? All I've heard is people desperate to make him not gay. Or bi, rather.

+

I think that, after ME2, it's a bit unfair to say that anyone has no place in the story due to lack of personal relevance. ME2's whole plot was pretty much collecting characters that were peripherally related at best - which may have been a good thing, actually. Shepard has to build an army, and that needs to be represented with lots and lots of characters. Making them all have some kind of individual, personal connection with the Reapers the way Shepard did would seem a bit contrived.
*giggles* And that just gave me a mental image of PROTHEAN BEACONS EVERYWHERE!!!

Granted, but then you got quests and suchlike that delved into their background, something lacking with Kaidan.

#7823
syllogi

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Xilizhra wrote...

Really? Omg, I want your life. The hate I've seen him get has been...more colorful. Boring, whiny, useless, teh gayz, and some that refuse to even acknowledge his existence at all.

Teh gayz? All I've heard is people desperate to make him not gay. Or bi, rather.


If you're just hanging out in the For the Love thread and this one, maybe.  If you venture out to any other thread on this site, LiveJournal, DeviantArt, Penny Arcade, The Escapist, or the rest of the internet, Kaidan is hated, and his defenders are few.

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that, after ME2, it's a bit unfair to say that anyone has no place in the story due to lack of personal relevance. ME2's whole plot was pretty much collecting characters that were peripherally related at best - which may have been a good thing, actually. Shepard has to build an army, and that needs to be represented with lots and lots of characters. Making them all have some kind of individual, personal connection with the Reapers the way Shepard did would seem a bit contrived.
*giggles* And that just gave me a mental image of PROTHEAN BEACONS EVERYWHERE!!!


Granted, but then you got quests and suchlike that delved into their background, something lacking with Kaidan.


Kaidan mostly talks about Jump Zero, but he does mention one of his parents and where he's from.  That's about the same amount of personal history that Wrex, Tali, Liara, and Garrus reveal.

#7824
Xilizhra

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If you're just hanging out in the For the Love thread and this one, maybe. If you venture out to any other thread on this site, LiveJournal, DeviantArt, Penny Arcade, The Escapist, or the rest of the internet, Kaidan is hated, and his defenders are few.

I periodically travel around most of the character threads and plenty of general discussion ones... I don't browse many of those other areas, though.

#7825
syllogi

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Xilizhra wrote...

If you're just hanging out in the For the Love thread and this one, maybe. If you venture out to any other thread on this site, LiveJournal, DeviantArt, Penny Arcade, The Escapist, or the rest of the internet, Kaidan is hated, and his defenders are few.

I periodically travel around most of the character threads and plenty of general discussion ones... I don't browse many of those other areas, though.


The hate has actually lessened around here since ME2 came out, but Ashley and Kaidan revenge fantasies are still pretty popular.  On DeviantArt, there are dozens of hateful comics.  I don't really feel like going out and looking for them, but they're very easy to find.

Elsewhere, on sites where it's predominantly guys, I've found it's just "LOL NOBODY SAVES BORING WHINY KAIDEN," so if that counts as hate, there you go.

EDIT:  ToPs are stressful, omg:

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Modifié par TeenZombie, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:43 .